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Originally Posted By: muzikluver
Originally Posted By: silvertones
Btw also drop the use of biab. I did 10 years ago. Learn RB it does more than biab.The xml file should work the same.
Before you import turn all bb tracks in RB to regular tracks.This should give you the whole song in midi format.Right click on a track in RB and generate any Real track. Forget about styles for RT. Just add 1 track at a time with musicians you want not those dictated by the style.

It may be desirable to drop BiaB and only use for songs that are ready for final production or that are close to that stage. But BiaB is very useful for working out the kinks in a song that is just being developed. For example, figuring out which chord progression sounds best for a particular section of the song or if one or more notes in a section should be modified to find out if they sound better than the current notes in that section. Because BiaB's track generation only takes seconds in comparison to the minutes that RB takes, making such changes in BiaB and listening to the quickly-generated results makes a lot more sense to me than doing this in RB.


I agree with you regarding continuing use of BIAB rather than using RB exclusively. You and Silvertones likely have very different workflow from each other. Besides the benefit you express above, there are many other elements of BIAB Silvertones and others may not use that with your workflow and creative techniques may find to be beneficial.

For instance, you use melodies in your projects and perhaps may want to make your melody more interesting and decide to use multiple instruments on the melody track. Both BIAB and RB have multiple ways to do this. However, BIAB is faster and more efficient. It's easier to search/find and audition instruments in BIAB over RealBand. (BIAB and RB share the same list of styles, but not the same StylePicker. The BIAB StylePicker is more advanced, faster and more efficient.) It is also much easier with BIAB to select and place the various instruments onto the Melody Track using either of two methods to do so.


You will be the one to ultimately decide what method suits you best.


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I'm out. Too much typing here for me to make sense.You go round and round.
Good luck


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Originally Posted By: silvertones
I'm out. Too much typing here for me to make sense.You go round and round.
Good luck


You should stay. What makes the conversation appear confusing is that your perspective is using BIAB as a performance tool, Muzikluver as a composing tool. This has been an outstanding conversation demonstrating the complexities and differences between the two dynamics. He's not rejecting your ideas but finding that although they may work, BIAB has elements that are more suited to composing than performing. Techniques that are easy, fast and reliable within one dynamic doesn't give the same results in the other. I'm getting a lot from what you've contributed to the conversation so far.


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The point I made was I don't use BIAI I exclusively use RB.


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Originally Posted By: silvertones
The point I made was I don't use BIAI I exclusively use RB.

Silvertones, I can understand your frustration with this discussion and your unwillingness to continue to participate in it because this is an RB product forum, not a BiaB product forum. That's why I had suggested to MusicStudent that he or another experienced user start a discussion over in the BiaB forum to discuss all the workarounds to the 255 bar limit in BiaB. I don't feel it would be appropriate for me to start it because I'm not experienced enough with BiaB to keep that discussion going and to make sure that all the bases are covered with those workarounds (as in, the user's primary objective, workflow scenario, software skill level, and musical/songwriting expertise, etc.). That discussion would also be the proper place for Charlie to explain and discuss his workaround and workflow steps not just with me (as he as been doing here) but with others as well. Besides trying to understand all the things he's said so far, I would have to actually go through the steps he's outlined one at a time for me to be able to continue having an intelligent and informed discussion of his process. And while I'm willing to do that, I think it would be most beneficial for everyone if that discussion would be transferred to the BiaB forum after someone (Charlie perhaps) starts the topic. In addition, workarounds that involve the use of RB could also be discussed in that same BiaB forum thread because it's focus would be on the 255 bar limitation within BiaB itself and how RB can be used to get around this limitation.

That would allow this discussion to continue with, or rather, resume its focus on workarounds to the problems I've encountered at the 240/241 bar boundary during my use of RB as an alleged solution to the 255 bar limit, as jazzmammal has claimed. (Yes, I think it's obvious that we've gotten off track a bit from the original topic.) While such a discussion doesn't preclude the issue of the 255 bar limit, that limit is not its focus. In other words, that limit is a secondary issue. So, if you're willing to resume your participation in this discussion with this mutual understanding in mind going forward, Silvertones, please do so because I still haven't heard the arrangement that you created for the song I sent you using your RB workflow procedure so that I can compare it to the one I created using my BiaB workflow procedure.


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Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
Originally Posted By: silvertones
I'm out. Too much typing here for me to make sense.You go round and round.
Good luck


You should stay. What makes the conversation appear confusing is that your perspective is using BIAB as a performance tool, Muzikluver as a composing tool. This has been an outstanding conversation demonstrating the complexities and differences between the two dynamics. He's not rejecting your ideas but finding that although they may work, BIAB has elements that are more suited to composing than performing. Techniques that are easy, fast and reliable within one dynamic doesn't give the same results in the other. I'm getting a lot from what you've contributed to the conversation so far.

What you said above, Charlie, is true: "This has been an outstanding conversation demonstrating the complexities and differences between the two dynamics." However, it has also gotten to be somewhat confusing at times---for me, in particular, and perhaps for Silvertones as well---because of the need to change mental gears when the discussion switches from RB to BiaB and vice-versa due to all the info that is being presented in both segments of this discussion. But because I would like to learn more about your procedure by actually going through the steps you've outlined with one or more of my songs and by continuing to discuss it further in another thread in the BiaB product forum that is dedicated to your procedure as a workaround to the 255 bar limit in BiaB, would you mind starting such a discussion with your procedure as the first one to be discussed? You and I could even jump start it by transferring all or most of your posts about your procedure in this thread to that one in an easy to follow sequence. And if it makes sense, each of those posts in this thread could be edited down to a statement or two about the other thread and a statement that such posts were transferred to the other thread. This would remove most of the "off-topic" clutter that currently exists in this thread. We could also have a PM conversation in the background about which posts to transfer and in what sequence to make sure it's done properly. What do you think?


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I haven't use BIAB in 10 years.


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Originally Posted By: silvertones
I haven't use BIAB in 10 years.

That's fine with me. This shouldn't prevent you from continuing with your comments about your workflow procedure that uses RB exclusively because I know enough about BiaB myself from using it to fill in any gaps that may exist.


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They are two different programs .. with much different workflow solutions.

In a nutshell; yes BiaB is faster/more convenient when working on new ideas (song/style creation). RB is better/more flexible if you already know what you want, though maybe not as fast. It overcomes many BiaB limitations from bar/track limits to audio routing possibilities. Yet retains the generation feature.

Your original issue was the 255 limit, which can be be gotten around in RB .. but not if you want RB to act like BiaB (keep using BB tracks). Then it reverts to BiaB-like behavior (in ways you may not want) and is slower anyways.
RB is unique in that it really has 2 'modes'. Whether you use BB tracks, or make all tracks regular tracks, can be a huge difference.

Once in RB, I, like Silvertones, make all BB tracks regular tracks right away. Then they behave as expected for me.
If I want BiaB behavior, I use BiaB. When I'm ready to expand and really build out the song I go to RB next.

Then I may end up going to Powertracks or ProTracks or Reaper or Audition or Traktion or whatever fits next for the particular project. It may never leave RB for some stuff.

It's all about workflow and getting comfortable with the software you want to use for the job you want to get done.


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Rharv, me and Jazzmamel told you how to do it.
I'm only interested in if RB can do what you sort of won't. It can. You insist on try to use the wrong tool. Have at it.
You didn't even send me the 337 measure file.


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The "work around" to avoid all this mess is clearly stated in this rather long thread. You simply cannot create your grand opus in BIAB, you need to compose and arrange in a different tool. If your final goal is to present your art as an audio file, you need a DAW. BIAB can provide exceptional accompaniment tracks. So get what you need from BIAB and take it to your DAW where the magic really happens.


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Muzikluver, for clear, concise, detailed and expert instructions to learn a sure fire method to quickly, efficiently and dramatically improve your demos and the work flow you utilize,

Get a copy of the book "Fett's Mixing Roadmap"



The book expertly details how to begin "Thinking in terms of parts and arrangements". "How to organize your Hard Drive and Folders..." and about "Comping Tracks". And pretty much everything else from A-Z regarding mixing.


The 255 bar limit is only an issue if you render arrangements using BIAB, RB or the BIAB VST and then only if you attempt to render a complete file exceeding that limitation. As noted, the work around the limit is simple and easy to implement. All the various methods and techniques Rharv, Silvertones and Jazzmmamal discussed in this thread, including the technique suggested by Joe with PGMusic as well as me, will accomplish the task in any of those three programs. The sound source of your project is irrelevant. It could be BIAB, RB, BIAB VST, a live instrument like a piano, guitar or keyboard, an XML file, MP3 or sheet music. How BIAB or RB generates and regenerates is irrelevant. It doesn't matter. The demo that goes to the producer is the vital element along with Muzikluver's ability to quickly and efficiently edit changes requested by the producer. The demo is your project mix, not your audio or the composition. Becoming proficient with Parts and Arrangements and Hard Drive and Folder organization along with knowing how to comp tracks will solve all the issues I'm aware he's having.


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Originally Posted By: rharv
Your original issue was the 255 limit, which can be be gotten around in RB .. but not if you want RB to act like BiaB (keep using BB tracks). Then it reverts to BiaB-like behavior (in ways you may not want) and is slower anyways.
RB is unique in that it really has 2 'modes'. Whether you use BB tracks, or make all tracks regular tracks, can be a huge difference.

Once in RB, I, like Silvertones, make all BB tracks regular tracks right away. Then they behave as expected for me.
If I want BiaB behavior, I use BiaB. When I'm ready to expand and really build out the song I go to RB next.

Then I may end up going to Powertracks or ProTracks or Reaper or Audition or Traktion or whatever fits next for the particular project. It may never leave RB for some stuff.

It's all about workflow and getting comfortable with the software you want to use for the job you want to get done.

I haven't used RB yet to create an arrangement using regular tracks because I didn't know how to do that and because I had the impression from RB itself and from the manual that the tracks had to be BB tracks in order to create an arrangement. In fact, in the manual it states that the tracks will change color from blue (for BB tracks) to yellow (for regular tracks). Elsewhere it mentions green colored tracks and says that RB can regenerate tracks that are either blue or green, which means that it can't do so for tracks that are yellow. I think this is where some of my confusion has been because of earlier comments that were made about converting BB tracks to regular tracks, which is the same thing you said above. I've never had any blue colored tracks in RB. The manual also says that blue colored tracks are midi tracks, which I haven't used yet in RB. I've only been using Styles with all RealTracks, and I've only generated those tracks while they were green colored. In other words, I haven't opened any BB files with RB and ended up with blue tracks. I've only started off with my .XML file and created an arrangement from the imported chords in that file.


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Originally Posted By: silvertones
Rharv, me and Jazzmamel told you how to do it.
I'm only interested in if RB can do what you sort of won't. It can. You insist on try to use the wrong tool. Have at it.
You didn't even send me the 337 measure file.

No, I'm not insisting on trying to use the wrong tool. I haven't been using BiaB with RB, and I haven't opened or imported any BiaB files into RB. I've always started with a .XML file that I opened in RB and proceeded from there. Others have mentioned using BiaB files with RB in their workflow (as rharv just did above), but that doesn't fit my current workflow.

I offered earlier to send you the 337 measure file, but you never responded until now. So, I've done that for you as well in a PM.


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Originally Posted By: MusicStudent
The "work around" to avoid all this mess is clearly stated in this rather long thread. You simply cannot create your grand opus in BIAB, you need to compose and arrange in a different tool. If your final goal is to present your art as an audio file, you need a DAW. BIAB can provide exceptional accompaniment tracks. So get what you need from BIAB and take it to your DAW where the magic really happens.

I know that I can't create my grand opus in BiaB. That's what I've been trying to do with RB by opening an XML file as my first step. But then I ran into the erroneous chord change and glitch issue that prompted me to start this discussion. Unfortunately, it's gotten a bit off track at times (which is probably the main reason this thread has gotten to be so long) because of the different workflow scenarios that others are using---some of which start with BiaB. Silvertones is the exception because he stopped using BiaB 10 years ago.


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Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
Muzikluver, for clear, concise, detailed and expert instructions to learn a sure fire method to quickly, efficiently and dramatically improve your demos and the work flow you utilize,

Get a copy of the book "Fett's Mixing Roadmap"

The book expertly details how to begin "Thinking in terms of parts and arrangements". "How to organize your Hard Drive and Folders..." and about "Comping Tracks". And pretty much everything else from A-Z regarding mixing.

Thanks for the info, Charlie! I'll definitely look into getting that book.


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<<< The book expertly details how to begin "Thinking in terms of parts and arrangements". "How to organize your Hard Drive and Folders..." and about "Comping Tracks". And pretty much everything else from A-Z regarding mixing. >>>


I hope you do eventually get the book. Fett is well known and has worked with major artists but is also known for helping home recordists as well. He has done seminars for TAXI at their annual Road Rally.

I highlighted those three chapters specifically because I think they are key to helping you streamline your personal workflow. You won't have to start something from scratch but only modify things you seem to be doing.

Thinking of song writing, arranging and structure in parts and sections really opens avenues for creative experimenting, trying various ways to non destructively hear your song in various structural configurations. I believe you will find it makes editing your work so much easier.

Learning to organize your files will help you keep track of everything and you will always be able to retrieve older versions of edits if you need them.

Whether you compose or edit in a DAW or BIAB/RB, you'll find out comping is a magical technique to both.


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RB IS BIAB with 48 tracks. It'll do everything biab can do and more including your grand ops. Forget finding away around biab 255 measure limit. Learn and use the right tool.
RealBand.


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Originally Posted By: silvertones
RB IS BIAB with 48 tracks. It'll do everything biab can do and more including your grand ops. Forget finding away around biab 255 measure limit. Learn and use the right tool.
RealBand.

I heard ya, Silvertones. But what about the "glitch and erroneous chord change occurring between bar 240 and bar 241"? What's your solution for that doing it "your way"? If I hadn't run into this bug in RB, I would have never started this thread. So, please stop bringing up BiaB because that's not our focus. I've already addressed the BiaB/RB mixture in this thread that was causing confusion to both you and me (and possibly others). So, now that we're back on track, let's keep the focus on RB, can we (you and I), please? If someone else wants to mention BiaB (which shouldn't be necessary anymore because enough has been said about the differences between BiaB and RB and some reasons for using BiaB instead of or even prior to RB), just ignore their post.


Tom Levan (pronounced La-VAN)
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Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
<<< The book expertly details how to begin "Thinking in terms of parts and arrangements". "How to organize your Hard Drive and Folders..." and about "Comping Tracks". And pretty much everything else from A-Z regarding mixing. >>>

I hope you do eventually get the book. Fett is well known and has worked with major artists but is also known for helping home recordists as well. He has done seminars for TAXI at their annual Road Rally.

I highlighted those three chapters specifically because I think they are key to helping you streamline your personal workflow. You won't have to start something from scratch but only modify things you seem to be doing.

Thinking of song writing, arranging and structure in parts and sections really opens avenues for creative experimenting, trying various ways to non destructively hear your song in various structural configurations. I believe you will find it makes editing your work so much easier.

Learning to organize your files will help you keep track of everything and you will always be able to retrieve older versions of edits if you need them.

Whether you compose or edit in a DAW or BIAB/RB, you'll find out comping is a magical technique to both.

I do intend to get it in spite of it's $38 price because I'm sure it'll be well worth it for me to have both now and in the future. So, thanks again for telling me about it.


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Henry Clarke explains why he loves the Re-generation function within the Tracks Window in their video Revolutionize Your Band-in-Box® Tracks with Regenerating Function.

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Learn even more about what the Tracks Window can do with our video Band-in-a-Box® 2024: The Tracks Window.

User Video: Convert MIDI Chords into AI Vocal Harmonies with ACE Studio and Band-in-a-Box®

The Bob Doyle Media YouTube channel is known for demonstrating how you can creatively incorporate AI into your projects - from your song projects to avatar building to face swapping, and more!

His latest video, Convert MIDI Chords into AI Vocal Harmonies with ACE Studio and Band-in-a-Box, he explains in detail how you can use the Melodist feature in Band-in-a-Box with ACE Studio. Follow along as he goes from "nothing" to "something" with his Band-in-a-Box MIDI Melodist track, using ACE Studio to turn it into a vocal track (or tracks, you'll see) by adding lyrics for those notes that will trigger some amazing AI vocals!

Watch: Next-Level AI Music Editing with ACE Studio and Band-in-a-Box


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