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#545915 - 07/18/19 12:39 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] incorrect bass playing in Biab. Even in version 2018!
Registered: 11/05/16
Posts: 103
Loc: Europe
Dzjang Offline
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Registered: 11/05/16
Posts: 103
Loc: Europe
After not having used Biab for a long time, I started using it on and off again since version 2012 and buying all the updates. I have 2018 now. Midi with good Kontakt instruments sounds killer. (It does)

Biab knows a lot of chords, but doesn’t play them correctly. It’s been like this since I started using it in the nineties. Realizing this hasn’t changed despite all the features and updates, makes me sad.
After checking over and over again, I came to this conclusion
(Turned off and on and off again natural arrangement and a lot of other features. But these settings do not really affect the results)


Biab does know
Difference between maj7, dom, minor7
Cm#5
C13+

Biab doesn’t know
CMaj7#5, instead it plays C7#5!
CmMAJ7, plays m7 (what about Chelsea Bridge, Nightlake...)
C7SUSb9, plays natural 9th: useful for all things ECM and Marsalis Hardbop
C7#9, thé Blues chord, Goodbye Pork Pie Hat, Beauty & the Beast (Wayne Shorter)
C7#9b13, an alternative to the C7b9, much more dissonance, cool
C7b9, Every standard without much exception. Your tone deaf neighbour plays natural 9
C7#11b13 biab plays 4 and natural 6
C13b9, the Caravan chord, and a staple chord for going to major chord a fourth up.
C7b9b13 thé altered chord every bopper uses.
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#546007 - 07/19/19 04:05 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: incorrect bass playing in Biab. Even in version 2018! [Re: Dzjang]
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 6048
Loc: Chicago
MusicStudent Offline
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I used to think alot about what you are reporting and I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to make BIAB play "exactly" what I thought I wanted. I remember discovering that BIAB was likely not playing what I was telling it, even when I wrote out the midi notes. BIAB was creating accompaniment based on what it was capable of doing. It used to bother me and that consumed a lot of my creative energy in BIAB.

Back at that time I also discovered that my ears where simply not good enough to really hear that b9 or #11 in a complex chord with all the band playing. But what I was hearing from BIAB generally sounded pretty darn good.

So I started looking at other tools to help me hear and play chords with extensions when I needed them. I discovered a other notation and Vsti software which did permit me to incorporate these chords into my music arrangements - just not in BIAB. I still use BIAB for the heavy lifting but when I simply need to play/hear something special and specific I have other tools. I don't fret about this anymore.

Thanks for bringing up this topic and for the memories.

Dan

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#546010 - 07/19/19 04:52 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: incorrect bass playing in Biab. Even in version 2018! [Re: Dzjang]
Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 15444
Loc: Australia
Noel96 Offline
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Dzjang,

Another factor to consider is that if using Realtracks, it's possible that the RT artist has not recorded particular chords and so BIAB substitutes.

I've found that generally the MIDI generation of chords is fine but sometimes the RT generations can be limited. The Jazz Realtracks usually seem to have all chords.

Also, I notice that the heading of your post is about the "bass" playing incorrectly whereas the body of you post seems to be more about chords. Is the chord problem the primary concern?

Regards,
Noel


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#546044 - 07/20/19 03:05 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: incorrect bass playing in Biab. Even in version 2018! [Re: Dzjang]
Registered: 11/05/16
Posts: 103
Loc: Europe
Dzjang Offline
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Registered: 11/05/16
Posts: 103
Loc: Europe
Thx @musicstudent and @noel96

It’s about bass interpreting the chords. I mainly play piano and don’t use the piano as accompaniment, just drums and bass, really.


As with Musicstudent, I began getting more and more into sophisticated stuff and it just struck me. On the other hand, a lot of the chords that Biab seems to ignore where already played in the days of Ellington and Parker. Let alone Mingus or Monk. It’s not about being sophisticated like Joshua Redman or Ambrose Akinmusire, just relatively simple jazz, but with some refinement.

Now that i start getting more into Wayne Shorter, Ecm and ... well... jazz after 1958, roughly, I feel sad. Sad, because my long time musical partner, Band in a Box, is tone deaf and won’t be able to help me improve my playing.

Thx for the replies,
_________________________
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums.
Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
https://soundcloud.com/jazzstylezz/tracks

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#546055 - 07/20/19 05:23 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: incorrect bass playing in Biab. Even in version 2018! [Re: Dzjang]
Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 2537
Loc: Ontario, Canada
BlueAttitude Offline
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Registered: 11/30/07
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Loc: Ontario, Canada
If you want the bass to play a specific note, have you tried using a "/" chord?
Bb/C for example to force it to play a 'C'?
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#546061 - 07/20/19 06:38 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: incorrect bass playing in Biab. Even in version 2018! [Re: Dzjang]
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 6048
Loc: Chicago
MusicStudent Offline
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Ya, I now see the miss match in title and content. Slash (/) chords to play bass notes over a chord have been a hot topic here for years. These have improved over time.

Are you interested in looking outside BIAB for playing chord extensions? Have you looked at EZKeys?

Dan
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#546066 - 07/20/19 07:15 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: incorrect bass playing in Biab. Even in version 2018! [Re: Dzjang]
Registered: 11/05/16
Posts: 103
Loc: Europe
Dzjang Offline
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Registered: 11/05/16
Posts: 103
Loc: Europe
Band in box treats slash chords like this:
Bb/C (C7sus 4, in fact): C is the root, 5th is the third of the Bb major triad, in this case it plays C and D which is C2 and not C7sus. So, alas, no solution here.

If you want a real Bb13b9 sound from your band you could write G/Bb. The bass player already knows you’re emphasizing b9 and natural 13. Being the sophisticated person he is, the bass player will definitely also play the dom7th, which is Ab! The most used slash chords are known.
But in Biab, the bass will mostly play the notes Bb, D and B (or Cb). This sounds weak, because you miss the bass playing the 5th or the 7th.

I believe we -as users- are always looking to find ways to improve the performance of biab. In fact, it should be the programmers, pgmusic, who should make it easy for us. We shouldn’t be the ones to try and make things work. You and me have paid our share.
_________________________
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums.
Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
https://soundcloud.com/jazzstylezz/tracks

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#546069 - 07/20/19 07:23 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: incorrect bass playing in Biab. Even in version 2018! [Re: Dzjang]
Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4811
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Notes Norton Offline
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Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Are you using MIDI or Real Tracks?
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100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

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#546073 - 07/20/19 08:17 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: incorrect bass playing in Biab. Even in version 2018! [Re: Dzjang]
Registered: 11/05/16
Posts: 103
Loc: Europe
Dzjang Offline
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Registered: 11/05/16
Posts: 103
Loc: Europe
Hello

I am using midi. In my opinion, with all the nice vst’s midi is the way to go.

Best regards
_________________________
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums.
Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
https://soundcloud.com/jazzstylezz/tracks

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#546081 - 07/20/19 09:13 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: incorrect bass playing in Biab. Even in version 2018! [Re: Dzjang]
Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 12477
Loc: Hamlin NY
MarioD Offline
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Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 12477
Loc: Hamlin NY
Originally Posted By: Dzjang
Hello

I am using midi. In my opinion, with all the nice vst’s midi is the way to go.

Best regards


Same here!

As you well know you can change the voicing very easily in MIDI. I do this a lot. Sometimes I start with a triad and add my own extensions. Time consuming, yes, but well worth it in the long run, at least for me. YMMV
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#546083 - 07/20/19 09:23 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: incorrect bass playing in Biab. Even in version 2018! [Re: Dzjang]
Registered: 11/05/16
Posts: 103
Loc: Europe
Dzjang Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 11/05/16
Posts: 103
Loc: Europe
Cool, MarioD, I tend to do the same, but it is really sad, isn’t it? It defies the purpose of an arranger...

Love the little jokes underneath your post.:)
_________________________
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums.
Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
https://soundcloud.com/jazzstylezz/tracks

Top
#546133 - 07/20/19 05:08 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: incorrect bass playing in Biab. Even in version 2018! [Re: Dzjang]
Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 15444
Loc: Australia
Noel96 Offline
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Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 15444
Loc: Australia
Hi again.

When you say...

Quote:
Bb/C (C7sus 4, in fact): C is the root, 5th is the third of the Bb major triad, in this case it plays C and D which is C2 and not C7sus. So, alas, no solution here.


I thought it wise to clarify that BIAB is actually playing what you want.

Bb/C = C9sus4 or C11 and not C7sus4. This is because the D in Bb is the 9th in the C scale. Arguably the D could be a 2nd in C, as you correctly indicate, but since it's a couple of octaves away from the bass note, it's usually referred to as a 9th.

I cannot think of a way to use slash chords with simple majors or minors to get an X7sus4 chord.

C7sus4 = C-F-G-Bb

Regards,
Noel
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