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#548791 - 08/09/19 08:54 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Please Fix Real Track 3257 (Horn Section)
Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 146
NigelSpiers Offline
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Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 146
Hi,

PG Music - please fix this Real Track.

When you play the "Solo" in the Real Tracks Picker screen it is perfect. Lots of lovely stabs, fills and "Fall-Offs" (I think that's what you call them). Jim Clark has done a great job and it really suits it's stated genre i.e. "Background Blues Shuffle 130 SW".

I can really use this in a lot of R&B, Soul and Blues songs and i'm sure many other members could also.

HOWEVER when you select this Real Track 3257 and play it in a song the "wheels totally fall Off". It changes to a completely unrelated weird series of held strange notes. I cannot even imagine where it could be used in it's current state.

Please fix this - you can make a lot of people very happy very quickly.

Thanks & Best Regards
Nigel

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#548850 - 08/10/19 10:51 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Please Fix Real Track 3257 (Horn Section) [Re: NigelSpiers]
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Jim Fogle Offline
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Nigel,

You may be able to change some Band-in-a-Box preference settings and RealTracks 3257 may perform closer to your expectations.

See the responses by VideoTracks and Noel96 in the post +++ BB add 7th when no 7th is required +++ for preference settings that influence what RealTrack phrases Band-in-a-Box selects for playback.
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#548862 - 08/10/19 12:21 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Please Fix Real Track 3257 (Horn Section) [Re: NigelSpiers]
Registered: 06/08/05
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jazzmammal Offline
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I just tested this out Nigel and don't see a problem. I haven't made any of the suggested Song changes either.

My first test I simply added that RT to Moanin using a rock funk style and it played fine in the solo section but it didn't play at all during the punches (shots) for the head which makes sense. Does your arrangement include shots or holds?

Then I searched for a RT blues shuffle style and the first one on my list is _Brief And Blues Shuffle Horns. That style includes the same horns RT. I used it with Jeff Golub's version of Cold Duck Time and it sounds great. Note you get different phrases with the A and B substyles. Try that style and see if it works for you.

If you still have a problem post a link to the songfile using one of the file sharing sites like Dropbox, Google Drive or whatever you have and we can download it and see whats up.

<Edit> Don't worry, Nigel we'll figure out your issue but I have to say I would have never thought to use this style and those horns with Cold Duck Time using Golub's chord changes. It's AWESOME. I've been jamming along with it on my piano and after running through the changes several times I'm hearing all kinds of different licks in those horns. I'm going to put this into Real Band and really do up a proper arrangement of it. Your problem just gave me a very cool project to work on.

Bob


Edited by jazzmammal (08/10/19 12:55 PM)
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#548883 - 08/10/19 04:39 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Please Fix Real Track 3257 (Horn Section) [Re: NigelSpiers]
Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 146
NigelSpiers Offline
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Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 146
Hi Jazzmammal,

Thanks for your thoughts.

Yes I tried the _Brief And Blues Shuffle Horns style you suggested - no change - it plays a series of long drawn out notes in both the Blue and Green sections. I've changed every Track settings and nothing at all changes even slightly.

Have you listened to the Solo in the "Assign RealTracks To Track" Screen in BIAB? Yes there are a couple of longer held notes but the majority are lovely stabs and fills.

The problem is that these long notes are playing right over where the vocalist sings or where the instrumentalist solos - that is not what a Shuffle Horn Section does (or any Horn Section for that matter).

Something has gone wrong at PG Music between the recording, the Solo File in the "Assign Realtracks....." screen and using this Realtrack in a BIAB song.

I would be very keen to hear suggestions from PG Music as to what is wrong and when they are able to fix it.

Best Regards
Nigel

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#548888 - 08/10/19 06:48 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Please Fix Real Track 3257 (Horn Section) [Re: NigelSpiers]
Registered: 06/05/12
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VideoTrack Offline
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Nigel, it may depend on the key signature of the song. I am of the understanding that RealTracks phrasings are recorded in several different keys. The performer may have included different variations in the material depending on what key it was being performed in. Try changing the key signature (transposing) and regenerate and see if the performance changes. Also, try transposing your song into the same key that the demo is recorded in and check if there is a difference.
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#548890 - 08/10/19 08:48 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Please Fix Real Track 3257 (Horn Section) [Re: NigelSpiers]
Registered: 02/05/15
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Pipeline Offline
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If it's playing a part that don't fit with the vocal try MultiRiffing 3257 in the Biab Plugin or RealBand.
You can also freeze the 3257 track in BB then upload the SGU and say where the bad parts are, then we can try and see if we get the same results.
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#548895 - 08/10/19 11:06 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Please Fix Real Track 3257 (Horn Section) [Re: NigelSpiers]
Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 146
NigelSpiers Offline
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Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 146
Hi Guys,

Thanks for your suggestions.

However - have you tried this real track in say a simple 12 Bar Shuffle (choose any key)?

Yes - if there was the odd wrong bar or two I could get round that in my DAW with edits. But 95% of the bars are wrong!

I think we now need to hear from PG Music and how they are going to fix this Real Track for everybody's benefit.

Best Regards
Nigel

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#548896 - 08/10/19 11:48 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Please Fix Real Track 3257 (Horn Section) [Re: NigelSpiers]
Registered: 02/05/15
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Pipeline Offline
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What if you try .......... ??? crazy

have a listen to the original source tracks wma/wav in x:\bb\RealTracks\Horn Section, Background BluesShuffle Sw 130
you can drag them in the DAW.


Attachments
RT-3257-Horns.png

RT-3257-Horns-DAW.png


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#548897 - 08/11/19 12:01 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Please Fix Real Track 3257 (Horn Section) [Re: NigelSpiers]
Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 7110
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jazzmammal Offline
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Something I just realized, in your OP you referred to the horns as "Solo". They are not a solo horn RT, they're named background horns.

Both of my test songs are not basic 3 chord blues so I just tried that with a simple 12 bar 3 chord blues. Yes, I get a lot of long held chords too but there are still some of the stabs and other fills especially at the B substyle but I agree, not as many as in the demo. Then I tried different key sigs and there's a difference there. Then I put in the fast 4 change on bar 2 and that helped as bit as well. Then I switched it to a minor blues and that changed things up a bit. Then I tried the minor blues in several keys. For each of these I regenerated several times and got different results every time but still, I would say at the best it was 70/30 held chords to all the fills and I think you would probably want to see that ratio reversed.

To be fair to PG consider in a real blues song with horns they are not playing licks and riffs continuously. There is a lot of held chords but you as the mixing engineer need to lower the volume during those sections and bump it up for the riffs and punches. I'm thinking that demo was just that, a demo of a lot of riffs one after the other but it doesn't mean that's what an actual track sounds like. That's a bit of a cop out I know but...

Pipeline is right the easy and fast way to fix this is to open the song in Real Band and use the multiriff function. If you're not familiar with that, when you invoke multiriff in RB it takes the next 7 unused tracks and populates them with 7 different versions of that track in one shot. That saves you from regenerating it 7 times on 7 different tracks manually to get the same result. Then with all those riffs you mute or copy/paste or use the volume nodes to create one good horn track. Personally I see a lot of potential with those horns but I also know they need work to make them fit Cold Duck Time. Few people have heard that version but Jeff Golub put a whole bunch of cool chord subs that take it far from the original Les McCann version.

I just played Cold Duck again and the big difference is the bridge has a chord every bar and the horns play well with that. The verse has Bb for 8 bars so there I get held chords almost every bar and I did get two fills but those held chords are in different inversions and some go up an octave so it's not just the same exact chord for 8 bars.

Like I said in the other thread, different tools for different jobs, none are perfect by themselves. We all would love one awesome program that does it all but that does not exist.

Bob


Edited by jazzmammal (08/11/19 12:04 AM)
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#548902 - 08/11/19 02:50 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Please Fix Real Track 3257 (Horn Section) [Re: NigelSpiers]
Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 146
NigelSpiers Offline
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Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 146
Hi Jazzmammal,

"Something I just realized, in your OP you referred to the horns as "Solo". They are not a solo horn RT, they're named background horns."

No I didn't - I said "Press the Solo button in the Assign RealTracks To Track Screen".

Please re-read my posts so you are familiar with the exact nature of the problem.

Pipeline - I can see what you are doing but that is not the answer - that is way too much work for every Rock, Jazz, Blues, Country, Soul and R&B user of BIAB - asking them to dig their way through a mountain of loops to try an create one simple backing track. If they wanted to do that they wouldn't be using BIAB at all.

No - the answer is for PG Music to fix the Real Track so it sounds the way the artist has correctly recorded it.

The best solution would be to divide up the loops into two or three Real Tracks to cover this critical area:

- one with single, double, triple stabs and fall-offs (for the Tonic and Sub-Dominant sections).
- one with fills (for bars 3, 4, 7 & 8 of the Tonic and possibly for the Turn-Around)
- one with held notes (can optionally be used on the Dominant).

Best Regards
Nigel

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#548903 - 08/11/19 03:00 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Please Fix Real Track 3257 (Horn Section) [Re: NigelSpiers]
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Pipeline Offline
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No that will take ages, I just mean play them and see what is available and how they are recorded.
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#548904 - 08/11/19 03:21 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Please Fix Real Track 3257 (Horn Section) [Re: Pipeline]
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Pipeline Offline
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But what you said about making it up manually, the way I did that was you generate up a lots of a RealTrack in RealBand then the part you like just highlight the section in the chord sheet then drag the track number out into the DAW.
I'm just used to finding workarounds as you could die waiting for PG to fix things, so if they don't get around to fixing it in a hurry you have an alternative, but if all else fails you can go to Jim himself http://www.realsax.com/
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#548914 - 08/11/19 09:26 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Please Fix Real Track 3257 (Horn Section) [Re: NigelSpiers]
Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 7110
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
jazzmammal Offline
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Horns are one of the most difficult things for Biab to do because in the real world the horns are always an integral part of the song. The lines are specifically written to complement what else is going on. IOW, horns are very song specific. I've listened to most of the midi horn styles as well as the newer RT horn styles and none are close to fitting whatever song I happen to be working on. I'll hear some licks or phrases that could work but other parts are not close.

When I said I really like the way those horns work with Cold Duck does not mean I'm happy with what Biab did and I'm done. Not even close. What I heard was the potential to make a good horn track out of the many varied parts of that RT. I don't know if that makes sense to you or not Nigel but to me there is no way Biab can simply generate horn lines by itself and we'll be happy with the result. They're too specific for each song, the lines you come up with that works in one won't work in another. They'll always need a lot of editing and tweaking by the user but at least that particular RT gives us a lot of material to work with and they're mixed very well.

I think the best you can hope for from PG is they make the RT demo more realistic as to what a track will sound like rather than changing what that RT will actually generate. We can disagree on the definition but they are named Background. Background horns to me are not going to be playing licks and fills every bar, they are supposed to be background meaning lots of holds are appropriate no different than background organ or piano.

Just had another dangerous thought. Maybe PG could take these horns and create a second RT from them and name it Blues Horns Punches and Fills and that track would play nothing but that all the time. Now we have 2 horn tracks to mix and match. That could work. They could even create some new RT styles using both RT's.

Bob


Edited by jazzmammal (08/11/19 09:31 AM)
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