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#551235 - 08/25/19 06:22 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A single, most annoying thing with computer/digital recording [Re: Rustyspoon#]
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rockstar_not Offline
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Rustyspoon - I agree that latency is probably the biggest irritant to me. I've taken a sort of middle ground with my guitar and bass recordings: I use amp simulations that are dedicated to that, externally to my DAW interface. No noticeable latency, and I have the immediacy of the sound and no playing with it afterwards other than fades and pans.

I see lots of comments above about clipping - it's SO easy not to clip in the digital recording domain that you should never ever have to worry about it. Particularly if you have a 24 bit or higher bit-depth interface.

You simply do not have to worry about it if you are using roughly half of the input range. 24 bit puts the digital noise floor (the noise you get from the A/D converter deciding if it is silence or the 1st step above silence)48 dB lower than 16 bit.

You can gleefully record away without clipping very simply AND cleanly.

Now, if you are in fact depending on tape saturation for your sound - then probably you aren't satisfied with any of the simulated tape saturation plugins.

-Scott

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#551244 - 08/25/19 08:07 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A single, most annoying thing with computer/digital recording [Re: Rustyspoon#]
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This is one of my points earlier. Probably 60-70% of posters on this forum have no clue about 16 bit vs 24 bit recording, how it works, what the interface has to do with it, don't know what recording "headroom" means, all that stuff. Oh, and the importance of mics and preamps as well.

Just one of many things to learn and being proficient in Windows has absolutely nothing to do with that, it's something you have to specifically understand about digital audio.

Bob
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#551246 - 08/25/19 08:24 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A single, most annoying thing with computer/digital recording [Re: Rustyspoon#]
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silvertones Offline
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I don't remember how this came about but"0" in a Daw is not "0" on an analog console. An analog console has about 26 Db of gain above 0 left.Or headroom if you prefer.A saw has no headroom at 0. That's it fini.
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#551248 - 08/25/19 08:48 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A single, most annoying thing with computer/digital recording [Re: Rustyspoon#]
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silvertones Offline
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To answer the original question for me it's not recording latency ,as direct input monitoring deals with that, it's latency in the action of the daw controls. I can't lower the buffer enough to have smooth fader moves and not have the tracks stutter.
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#551250 - 08/25/19 09:18 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A single, most annoying thing with computer/digital recording [Re: Rustyspoon#]
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That's a function of your computer, interface, ASIO drivers and how it's all set up and it does not require some hot hotrodded machine either. Remember Mac posting like 15 years ago he was getting 5-6 milliseconds of latency? That's about the same latency as you hearing a guitar amp from 6 feet away or a pianist sitting at a grand piano. It's already been measured many times, it's about 5ms from the time the pianist hits the key, the hammer hits the string and the speed of sound from the string to the ear. 5ms. IOW, it's unnoticable so it's all on us. Like I said before, we have to learn enough about PC's and DAW's to figure it out.

Bob
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#551253 - 08/25/19 09:42 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A single, most annoying thing with computer/digital recording [Re: silvertones]
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Not to change anyone's mind because as a hobby, or at a level less than full time, being engineer, producer and artist is both challenging and fun. But I believe most people could make better music and more music using less complicated hardware recording devices than with DAW's.
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#551265 - 08/26/19 04:36 AM [Off-Topic] Re: A single, most annoying thing with computer/digital recording [Re: silvertones]
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hi

Originally Posted By: silvertones
I don't remember how this came about but"0" in a Daw is not "0" on an analog console. An analog console has about 26 Db of gain above 0 left.Or headroom if you prefer.A saw has no headroom at 0. That's it fini.


The difference here is due to completely different meter design and scaling.
Analogue consoles have Vu meters, these show the rms voltage of the signal, scaled and expressed as power Db.

Digital use pp (peak) meters and show the amount you can use before you run out of bits, hence the more head room between 16 and 24 bits as the range from noise floor to the peak is greater.

Over simplified explanation but might help.
Mike
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#551270 - 08/26/19 05:25 AM [Off-Topic] Re: A single, most annoying thing with computer/digital recording [Re: Rustyspoon#]
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Teunis Offline
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I must be very strange but I find using a DAW far easier than bouncing tracks and repeating parts time and again. Then putting up with hiss or a dry mouth noise (even worse with false teeth) or a myriad of other extraneous noises that found their way in.

When it comes to clipping Izotope has RX7 which has a De-Clip module that gets shy of some clipping albeit not perfect. I tried it today on something I recorded too hot about 10 years ago and was blown away by the result. (I have been waiting for the price on RX7 to come down. Yesterday Pluginboutique (Izotope also) offered an upgrade from Ozone 8 Advanced to the Production Suite for US$149. I took up the Pluginboutique offer as the included Izotope Iris 2 free)

Tony
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#551274 - 08/26/19 06:12 AM [Off-Topic] Re: A single, most annoying thing with computer/digital recording [Re: Teunis]
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Ditto on the learning curve. There is so much and it never seems to end.

Regarding latency, I was never smart enough to get the right setting on RB. When I moved to Reaper, the defaults worked great and I didn't ask questions, just accepted it. Others on this forum have done very well dealing with latency using RB, so you might want to ask what settings they use.

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#551283 - 08/26/19 07:20 AM [Off-Topic] Re: A single, most annoying thing with computer/digital recording [Re: Mike Head]
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silvertones Offline
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Right Mike. Just wonder why it was designed that way. It could have been designed the same as an analog console so that 0 still gave you some digital head room if you will.
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#551288 - 08/26/19 07:33 AM [Off-Topic] Re: A single, most annoying thing with computer/digital recording [Re: Rustyspoon#]
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OK so... 2 things...

Latency. If you are using a good interface and it can run native (real) ASIO and not a wrapper on MME.... you should NOT have any sort of latency issues that affect your ability to record and playback with good real-time sync. When people say they have bad latency ( anything they can hear that affects their ability to record easily), I always ask what interface and driver they are using.

Annoying things:

Crashes..... but in the old tape days, the tape would jump off the reel and wind around the spindle.

Updates and obsolescence of software with respect to the new hardware and operating systems.
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#551295 - 08/26/19 08:55 AM [Off-Topic] Re: A single, most annoying thing with computer/digital recording [Re: Rustyspoon#]
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+1 for the easy wonders of Izotope’s products (and their guide to mastering).

And I think Bob (jazzmammal) has a point: 70% of users don’t understand 59% of these concepts 78% of the time. But my figures might be wrong...
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#551305 - 08/26/19 11:05 AM [Off-Topic] Re: A single, most annoying thing with computer/digital recording [Re: Rustyspoon#]
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As, I suppose, one of those in the alluded to percentage bereft of advanced recording technological knowledge I can only speak from experience. Before I upgraded my RAM I was having latency issues requiring me to turn off plug-ins when recording a vocal and/or put Logic Pro X into a specific permutation of its low latency mode. Zero issues after the upgrade. A sample of one (me) may mean nothing but for me it worked. Nowadays I just want to record hassle free and have fun at it and let this wonderful digital technology work for me. Thank you PG Music, Logic Pro, Waves, Izotope and Focusrite. I may be a 73 year old curmudgeon but, counterintuitively, I don’t miss one aspect of my 45 years of analog recording. smile

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#551317 - 08/26/19 01:17 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A single, most annoying thing with computer/digital recording [Re: Rustyspoon#]
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silvertones Offline
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Come on Janice you don't miss splicing tape to rearrange the tune only to realize you cut in the wrong place? grin in
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#551321 - 08/26/19 02:12 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A single, most annoying thing with computer/digital recording [Re: silvertones]
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Janice & Bud Offline
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Originally Posted By: silvertones
Come on Janice you don't miss splicing tape to rearrange the tune only to realize you cut in the wrong place? grin in


Haha haha! My younger wife lends me her great ear All the time and is the most musical person I know but getting her to join in on a mix is like pulling teeth.

Bud

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#551418 - 08/26/19 07:04 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A single, most annoying thing with computer/digital recording [Re: Rustyspoon#]
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73 eh? Me too, I'm 74 in November, I should update my avatar I guess but I have such a nice smile in this one. Hey Matt, make that concept number 60% and you got it...

Bob
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#551469 - 08/27/19 05:09 AM [Off-Topic] Re: A single, most annoying thing with computer/digital recording [Re: Rustyspoon#]
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Wow!
Thank you everyone who participated in the thread!
It was simply an opinion based post, not a cry for help. smile It was an interesting read. Some posts are straight to the point, some humorous some "outside the box". Excellent tech views had been expressed on human level.


I know exactly where my particular annoyance originates. I am a greedy recording slob and have dozens of instances of VST/Synths opened in the project, that is where the latency rat lives. I do have a decent card (Arturia Audiofuse) with real Asio driver written for it (not a wrapper) and I do have 32 GB of ram.
This latency thing does not take away from creative process much, it is just an annoyance smile

One of the most popular items was "clipping". I overcame this by reducing mic volume combined with a couple of singing techniques or just stepping away from mic on louder vocals. Still get them, but not terrible. I guess it is very different for instruments.



P.S. Matt, loved the formula: "70% of users don’t understand 59% of these concepts 78% of the time." It is a perfect candidate to be tattooed on someone's back.

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#551477 - 08/27/19 06:05 AM [Off-Topic] Re: A single, most annoying thing with computer/digital recording [Re: Charlie Fogle]
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Notes Norton Offline
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Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
<...snip...> That's why nearly 100% of the artists with any analog recording experience would immediately see an improvement in their recordings if they inserted a physical mixer/console into their recording chain. <...>

I run MIDI out of one older computer into a half dozen or more hardware synth modules. Since they all have essentially the same latency (+-5 or 6ms) mixing different synths to get the best sound for each part is no problem.

I use a MIDI patch bay to route to the hardware synths and run the outputs to separate channels of an analog mixer. I like the analog because twiddling dials to balance is much quicker and easier than mousing. Plus I can do two at once.

Then I take the output of the mixer, along with any analog I want to add (sax, flute, vocals) into the DAW on a newer computer.

Some things work for me better using old analog tools, and others using new digital tools. It's best for me to have both.

Note: I don't do recordings that I want to release to the world as my new single or album, mostly backing tracks for my duo or demo files for my BiaB styles. If I wanted to do that, I'd go to a pro studio with good acoustics and pro to take care of the recordings.

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#552930 - 09/04/19 06:44 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A single, most annoying thing with computer/digital recording [Re: Rustyspoon#]
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Originally Posted By: Rustyspoon#
Wow!
Thank you everyone who participated in the thread!
It was simply an opinion based post, not a cry for help. smile


Right but realize we are replying to a much wider audience than just you. Who knows how many people from all over the world get some benefit from all these replies.

See what you started?

Bob
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#552973 - 09/05/19 04:15 AM [Off-Topic] Re: A single, most annoying thing with computer/digital recording [Re: Rustyspoon#]
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<<< Some things work for me better using old analog tools, and others using new digital tools. >>>


Yes they do. Every so often I return to some of the older books, DVD's from many years ago especially if they pertain to functions of old hardware. I recently read a book published in the late 1980's about MIDI by Craig Anderton. In it's day, it was a very complete and detailed explanation of what midi is, how it works and how musicians use it to connect multiple pieces of gear together. Pro's were using equipment costing thousands of dollars to daisy-chain 4-5 single synths to create sounds a $49 keyboard can easily do today. It's a very complex book.

I just finished a second book last night that I'll be making a post about in a few minutes. From 1996, it's a book on home recording by award winning producer Peter McIan. The book is a technical, hands on book about using professional studio multi track recording techniques on a consumer 4 Track recorder. Only the content dealing with the physical limitations and physics of tape are obsolete. This is a book about sound and how to capture it cleanly. One has read 225 pages into the book before there's ever an instruction to hit the 'record' button. There are chapters on recording drums, bass, guitar and vocals. A chapter on microphones. After 216 pages of theory presented in lay terms, Mr. McIan begins a chapter that gives step by step instructions how to record and mixdown sixteen instruments onto a portable home studio machine. Each with it's own EQ, panning and special effects. The book is still in print because it's still relevant to the home recordist. Even if you use a DAW with unlimited tracks. Check out the post over in the Recording Thread.


Edited by Charlie Fogle (09/05/19 04:22 AM)
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