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#559411 - 10/16/19 06:31 AM [Help! Tech S.O.S (Off topic)] Performing in Mono or Stereo?
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1407
Loc: Lake Keowee, South Carolina
MountainSide Offline
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Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1407
Loc: Lake Keowee, South Carolina
Over the years, my system has evolved into what I would call a "studio" system (see sig below). In other words, I am setup to play in a studio setting not "out in the real world".

Lately, I've been thinking about trying the nursing home or small party / benefit circuit.

While I can adapt most of what I have, speakers are the biggest unknown for me. My thoughts are that I would go with "powered" speakers and perhaps those that have built in mixers.

Right now, for lack of anything else, I'm looking at Yamaha's; their two speaker Stagepas 600BT or their soon to be released "stick" system, the Stagepas 1K.

But here's where I get confused. In a two speaker system, I could do a "hard" pan to the left and right and get a stereo image. With the "stick" system, it would be mono only.

All of my BIAB and RB songs use panning to one extent or another. How important is this in a live setting? Up close with my monitors having both channels helps to widen the field, but is this really necessary or preferred in a live setting where the "audience" is further back from the speakers?

While I understand that having a stereo setup with speakers too far apart would be a problem, does having a multi-speaker setup with left and right speaker channels enhance the overall sound in larger settings? Will mono, providing that you have a wide horizontal dispersion, sound just as good?

Maybe it doesn't make any difference....I just don't know.

Would appreciate your thoughts.

Jeff
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#559415 - 10/16/19 07:48 AM [Help! Tech S.O.S (Off topic)] Re: Performing in Mono or Stereo? [Re: MountainSide]
Registered: 06/08/05
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It would only matter to you, once the sound is 15-20 feet out front the stereo field is lost.

For me as a keyboard player focusing mostly on organ and electric pianos I really want stereo behind by so I use a Spacestation amp but that's probably not for you. If you want to use two separate powered speakers you can get stereo by making sure you're sound source outputs true L and R and split them to both speakers. Another thing, when I was researching this for myself some years ago I was surprised by how many systems would mention stereo and had L and R inputs but the speaker outs were actually not really split, they were still mono going out to two speakers. If you want stereo you have to watch out for that, the advertising can be confusing.

Bob
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#559469 - 10/16/19 01:22 PM [Help! Tech S.O.S (Off topic)] Re: Performing in Mono or Stereo? [Re: MountainSide]
Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 278
Loc: Gulf Stream/Sonoran Desert
mrgeeze Online   content
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I play instrumental guitar with BIAB backing tracks.
Everything from dinner jazz to Frank Zappa (a slightly different type of dinner jazz).
I throw in a little Merle Haggard here and there to keep everything honest. 3 chords and the truth.

Most of my backing tracks have drums,bass, and at least one chording instrument comping (B3,Rhodes,Guitar,etc)
I started with stereo mix but have evolved to mono mix only.

I've learned that quality of mix is very important.
Toward that end I make sure to use a limiter and loudness meter in my DAW.
I also use mp3 gain to assure consistent volume across tracks.
These two things (suggested by forum members) have significantly improved the quality of my tracks.

As far as the PA goes, I started with a standard 2 speaker PA with a stereo mix.
It was a bit too much and required 3-4 trips to the car for everything.
From there I went to Bose S1 pro with a guitar amp. That was better but not great.
The sound would get muddy especially the backing tracks.

Now I use a line array (Stick) PA. This is hands down the best so far.
The height of the rig really helps project the mids and highs. The 12" woofer moves some air.
I use the Electro Voice Evolve 50. Its a bit more $$ than the StagePas 1k.
I honestly cant tell you how it compares. The Stagepas does have a similar 12" woofer.
Looks like it may also have a little more capability at the mixer. That might be in the StagePas favor.

The line array setup is much cleaner at the gig. Its all right there where you are. This is important as some of my gigs I don't have a lot of space to spread out. Once or twice i used the Bose S1Pro as a monitor out of the line array. That worked pretty well.

I no longer carry a guitar amp. I use a Tech 21 FlyRig Guitar Processor direct into the EV.
The tracks are on an Ipad I direct to the EV. I use Anytune Pro for playing the tracks.
I also have a BlueBoard bluetooth pedal to the ipad for controlling (next song, previous song, start, stop)
Anytune. On occasion I'll use the bluetooth from the ipad to the EV for the tracks but mostly I use a cable.

I pack it all in/out with 2 trips to the car.

I'm 61 and while I love the sound, the 42lb bass unit is a bit to hump up and down stairs.
I'm considering a 8" or 10" powered speaker setup (QSC 10.2)for small gigs.
It would knock 10 lbs off the carry. It still puts out enough bass for dinner gigs.

Anyway, this forum helped me quite a bit to get where I'm at now. Its got me a quality sound the customers like so I'm getting some gigs (in spite of the Zappa stuff). Hoping to focus on putting together a CD over the winter for next season.
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#559475 - 10/16/19 02:18 PM [Help! Tech S.O.S (Off topic)] Re: Performing in Mono or Stereo? [Re: MountainSide]
Registered: 12/10/15
Posts: 946
Loc: Cornwall UK
Mike Head Offline
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Registered: 12/10/15
Posts: 946
Loc: Cornwall UK
Hi
It does rather depend on the venue and your sound source.
The problem with a real stereo image is that the customers dancing, or sitting to one side tend to only get half of the sound unless its panned to the centre or very near.
Especially if you are using a wide stereo source image and wide speaker placement.

Therefore central panned stereo or mono via two speakers / channels would be more suitable . and share the sound out better and make it perceptibly louder.
The Yamaha stage pass works this way as each speaker and channel is 300 watts hence the name 600 .
It has different input arrangement into the inbuilt mixer and at least two of them can take a stereo signal in and send a mono mix, of say a stereo keyboard to both speaker outs
I had a Stage pass 300
Here are some pics may help.

Mike


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#559480 - 10/16/19 02:59 PM [Help! Tech S.O.S (Off topic)] Re: Performing in Mono or Stereo? [Re: MountainSide]
Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 5022
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Notes Norton Offline
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I've been in a duo since 1985 and found it's best for me to mix in mono.

In a live setting, very few people are going to be in the sweet spot to hear balanced stereo, so some will hear one channel louder than the other and the mix will be all wrong. In worst case, you will be set up in a room to the short wall (it happened to us last weekend) with people past both the L and R speakers. If I were in stereo the would mostly hear one channel and not the other.

I've been in very many different room configurations. I even played a gig where one speaker was inside and another out by the pool. I've played rooms where one channel had to be turned down and the other up to fill the room. And many other weird setups.

Mono is just all-purpose easier.

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#559523 - 10/17/19 04:03 AM [Help! Tech S.O.S (Off topic)] Re: Performing in Mono or Stereo? [Re: MountainSide]
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1407
Loc: Lake Keowee, South Carolina
MountainSide Offline
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Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1407
Loc: Lake Keowee, South Carolina
Thanks guys, I really appreciate these comments. It certainly helps steer my thinking.

It seems that the consensus is its best to use mono in a live setting. Must say this comes with some relief as hauling a multi-speaker setup isn't something I would look forward to.

Do appreciate everyone's comments and insights.

Jeff
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#559526 - 10/17/19 04:23 AM [Help! Tech S.O.S (Off topic)] Re: Performing in Mono or Stereo? [Re: MountainSide]
Registered: 12/20/16
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Loc: Gold Coast, Queensland, Austra...
Teunis Offline
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I tend to use stereo but I see the point of folks not hearing the “true stereo”. I just like the spread of instruments across the stage. I like a piano on the left (it can still be heard out the right just not as loud), then a strummed guitar near the centre. Bass and drums right up the middle and a picked guitar towards the right. This is pretty much how the band I was in would sit on a stage.

I had retired from all forms of music and got shy of most my gear, then folks asked me to perform. I needed something easy and cheap. I bought a Samson 800 PA. This PA clips together into one box for transport. When clipped together the mixer and leads all fit neatly into the speaker enclosures so I only have one “box” to shift (I do so on a trolley). At 70 years of age the last thing I need is something I can barely move.

Tony
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#559563 - 10/17/19 09:34 AM [Help! Tech S.O.S (Off topic)] Re: Performing in Mono or Stereo? [Re: MountainSide]
Registered: 09/21/01
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Loc: UK
Bob Calver Offline
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Having played in a live band with everything going into the mixer and then out through the PA (including my guitar processor) we had the facility to do stereo but sent the whole lot out in mono through the two speaker arrays of horns, mid range cabs and and bass bins.

you need a good solid sound that sounds good from anywhere and stereo is just a complication

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#559581 - 10/17/19 12:12 PM [Help! Tech S.O.S (Off topic)] Re: Performing in Mono or Stereo? [Re: MountainSide]
Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 6133
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Jim Fogle Online   happy
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Another question is do you playback mono, stereo or multi-tracks song files even though the final output will be mono?

With multi-tracks you can adjust the volume level or equalization for each track as needed to match the room acoustics.

Band-in-a-Box and RealBand can play native BiaB song files but other programs can not.

Audacity can, and some DAWs can import and play multi-track files.

All the programs mentioned above plus Cakewalk by BandLab and some DAWs can playback from a playlist.
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#559584 - 10/17/19 12:23 PM [Help! Tech S.O.S (Off topic)] Re: Performing in Mono or Stereo? [Re: Jim Fogle]
Registered: 12/27/03
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MarioD Offline
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Another point is that if you go mono then you should mix in mono. Mixing in stereo and playing back in mono can cause problems.
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#559641 - 10/17/19 06:54 PM [Help! Tech S.O.S (Off topic)] Re: Performing in Mono or Stereo? [Re: MountainSide]
Registered: 10/09/16
Posts: 968
Loc: Central Ohio
edshaw Online   content
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You're in the area of sound board operation with this, Jeff. While there are good reasons to be able to A & B the tracks, such as lowering the vocal for a Karaoke use, the first priority is audio consistency, you know, no bad seats. Or, the music fills the room, as they say. This is not a living room or movie theatre. I use two power speakers aimed at 45 to each other.
I'm on the learning curve with this in much the same application you are considering. I have a pair of QVS 1000 Watt 8's. Wouldn't want to go much lower. Each speaker is fed by its own aux out. Each speaker has separate left and right XLR combinations in w/ volume control. The two can be linked. Each also has tape in. The tracks are split, but each side is the same. My volume is controlled by track faders.
I don't make an effort for stereophonic effect at this point, though down the learning curve a ways, that's a thought. Should I go there, I'd expect to use the pan features for starters.



Edited by edshaw (10/17/19 07:02 PM)
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#559677 - 10/18/19 05:32 AM [Help! Tech S.O.S (Off topic)] Re: Performing in Mono or Stereo? [Re: MountainSide]
Registered: 07/06/00
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Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Notes Norton Offline
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I mix into two channels, Bass and Drums hard left all the other instruments hard right. I pan them both center on my PA mixer.

That gives me the ability to nudge up the rhythm for dance sets and tweak it down a bit during dinner sets.

That works for me.

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#559952 - 10/20/19 11:33 AM [Help! Tech S.O.S (Off topic)] Re: Performing in Mono or Stereo? [Re: MountainSide]
Registered: 06/08/05
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jazzmammal Online   content
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That's exactly what I did the last time I used tracks as a duo which I haven't needed to do again lately. The biggest acoustical problem in a room is bass and drums. A little EQ, a little volume nudge and you're good.

Bob
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#560085 - 10/21/19 06:33 AM [Help! Tech S.O.S (Off topic)] Re: Performing in Mono or Stereo? [Re: MountainSide]
Registered: 12/06/11
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Loc: Lake Keowee, South Carolina
MountainSide Offline
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OK, I'm trying to wrap my head around all of this good advice. Mixing in mono...OK got that. But the "nudging" comment caught my attention and brings up another question.

Are you folks recommending a multi speaker setup or would a single "stick" (Bose L1, Yamaha 1K, JBL Eon One ) speaker work? And just for the record, I'm not talking about use in large venues, ballrooms or anything of that size...I would guess not more than 50 people in medium sized dining rooms, pool areas, cabanas and the like.

Seems these vertical array speakers have plenty of horizontal coverage for those situations and I hope enough low end. On the other hand, maybe I'm still missing something here.

Your thoughts and experience playing in a live situation would be most appreciated.

Jeff
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#560127 - 10/21/19 11:42 AM [Help! Tech S.O.S (Off topic)] Re: Performing in Mono or Stereo? [Re: MountainSide]
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Notes Norton Offline
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I have a friend who uses one of those Bose things (I think it was L1 model 1 but not sure). He needed 2 subwoofers to fill a medium sized dancing crowd room.

In a little over 2 years it broke, and was told Bose doesn't make the parts to fix it anymore. It's a doorstop.

He went conventional and bought our old Carvin powered speakers. (We bought new EV powered speakers about a year ago so the old ones where just sitting around.)

I have no idea if this it typical or not, but if you are using the Bose, I suggest you get a spare for a back up.

That advice actually goes for anything. I have a power amp and non-powered speakers that I use in my studio that were once in my PA system that can be called back into action.

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#560576 - 10/24/19 11:23 AM [Help! Tech S.O.S (Off topic)] Re: Performing in Mono or Stereo? [Re: MountainSide]
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jazzsax Offline
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Jeff, I play nursing/retirement homes sometime 2 or 3 times a week and the stage pass in my opinion is all you would ever need. Most facilities have two or three different levels of residents, independent, nursing and memory. For the independent groups I use a Fender Passport (stereo) and it is more than enough to fill the room. In all the places I play the performance area is no larger than 40’ x 60’ and maybe 40 people.
Now for the memory and nursing performances I use a small PA combo amp it’s an Alesis TransActive 50, which is of course mono. Unfortunately no longer made but it is the best small amp I have ever heard. Maybe just 20+ lbs.
These performances are very intimate with maybe 12 people max. They are truly “parlor” venues.
All of my files played from BIAB running on a MacBook Air. They are mixed in stereo and on the Passport I have the option of stereo or mono, it is an older model which has that capability.
So to help answer your question I don’t think it makes that much difference whether you use mono or stereo.
But you might consider 2 amps, one smaller so you can get in and out of a smaller nursing home performance and a PA for a party environment.

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#560701 - 10/25/19 06:10 AM [Help! Tech S.O.S (Off topic)] Re: Performing in Mono or Stereo? [Re: jazzsax]
Registered: 12/06/11
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Loc: Lake Keowee, South Carolina
MountainSide Offline
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Thanks JazzSax, really appreciate your insight and experience. Your venues are right in the sweet spot about what I was considering.

I'm still having an issue in my mind about the mono / stereo thing but I also have to keep an eye on making a sound one time investment and keeping in mind the setup and lugging of equipment. I leaning towards the "stick" vertical array types ( Bose, Yamaha Stagepas 1K's ) but the old school audiophile in me derails me into the multi-speaker mindset.

Having "pros" like you and the other forum members has really given me insight on how best to proceed. The Christmas season is fast approaching and I need Santa to make the right choice soon!

Jeff
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#560705 - 10/25/19 06:49 AM [Help! Tech S.O.S (Off topic)] Re: Performing in Mono or Stereo? [Re: Mike Head]
Registered: 12/10/15
Posts: 946
Loc: Cornwall UK
Mike Head Offline
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Posts: 946
Loc: Cornwall UK
HI

As I said I had a Yamaha Stage pass 300.
And very good it was, one or two members of the keyboard club had these also and they often used theirs in the nursing home situation with success.
However the 2 speaker and mixer set up weigh 18 kg that’s about 39.6 lbs
Plus any speaker stands you may want.
That’s almost ½ cwt needs some lugging. You can I believe get a bag with wheels
(more expense)
And that’s the 300 model.
Mike
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#560734 - 10/25/19 10:05 AM [Help! Tech S.O.S (Off topic)] Re: Performing in Mono or Stereo? [Re: MountainSide]
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Guitarhacker Offline
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Unless you are Pink Floyd, or... going for the "PF we're gonna blow your mind" effect..... Mono works best. Especially in nursing homes and 99% of all other venues.

Back in the day we ran a system and mixer totally capable of handling stereo.

From the board to the amps and speakers, we had the capability. However.... We never ran anything in stereo. Main reason is, if you do, you risk having parts of your audience miss parts of the music due to their seating location. If they are sitting on one side or the other, and are directly in front of a speaker....and you're running a true stereo mix, they will miss the stuff from the other side.

Aside from Pink Floyd, most of the bands I've seen appeared to have mono mixes. At a Trisha Yearwood concert, we had seats up front and 3 rows back but directly in front of the stage speakers. I don't recall thinking that I couldn't hear the mix well. I heard everything nicely and for it's proximity to the speakers, at a very comfortable volume level.
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#560843 - 10/26/19 02:19 AM [Help! Tech S.O.S (Off topic)] Re: Performing in Mono or Stereo? [Re: MountainSide]
Registered: 09/21/01
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Bob Calver Offline
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a while back we got up to play for an audience of old folks and almost all of them took their hearing aids out............

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We've made a video that highlights all the changes to the DAW Plugin with build 2.9.41: Watch it...

Learn more about the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2020 for Mac b412 and download here.

Updated Band-in-a-Box® 2020 and VST DAW Plugin for Windows!

Did you see the latest build update announcement for Band-in-a-Box® 2020 for Windows?

It’s PACKED with powerful updates, including additional RealCharts, improved RealStyles demos, language support, and significant additions and improvements to the DAW Plugin!

The updated DAW Plugin 2.9.41 adds additional and redesigned action buttons, refined DAW syncing, Chord Sheet enhancements, improvements to MultiRiffs, RealTracks, RealDrums, and MIDI features, and so much more! In fact, we’ve made a video that highlights all the changes to the DAW Plugin with build 2.9.41: Click here to check it out.

Learn more about the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2020 b724 for Windows and download it here.

#TipTuesday Band-in-a-Box® Online Manuals - An Excellent Resource!

The Band-in-a-Box® program manuals are available on our Support page - what an excellent online resource to help you get the most out of the program!

Head to our Support | Online Manuals page and you'll have access to both a PDF and an online program manual for Band-in-a-Box® 2018-2020 and RealBand 2018-2020!

Bookmark www.pgmusic.com/manuals/ today!

Review - Xtra Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box® 2020

Remember that wonderful review of Band-in-a-Box® 2020 for Mac we received last month from "Dr. Dave" Walker, Band-in-a-Box 2020 for Mac … WOW!?

Well, Dr. Dave is at it again! He's had a chance to work with the newest Xtra Styles PAK 9, and shares his thoughts in his recent Xtra Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2020 – Worth It? post at Dr. Dave On Music - make sure you check it out!

Sneak peak...
...PG Music has gone deeper into several styles, using more or fewer instruments, adding unexpected ones, and giving some surprising make-overs. Others are more focused versions of particular styles with more extreme attention to the best of that genre. Other ones combine styles that sound great, such as adding a banjo to a rock or blues track, or a jazz sax to a folk style. There are many wonderful combinations to try out that will expand any songwriter or arranger’s palette. These are the things that make certain songs stand out, and experimenting with them is not just fun (a lot of fun!) but it will expand your horizons on what is possible and even excellent. For instance, my light jazz arrangement worked very well as a country song, which floored me, and also as a folk-alt-jazz fusion. One sax solo was worth the price of admission alone, as it sounds terrific in any of the arrangements.
-"Dr. Dave" Walker

Again we say, "Thank you for the review Dr. Dave!" - we really enjoyed reading this enthusiastic review!

The Band-in-a-Box® Panic "Button"

Today is International Panic Day... did you know that Band-in-a-Box® has a "Panic Button"?

What does it do?

Accessible from the Play Menu (or by selecting F12), you would choose this if your MIDI notes are stuck ON and it’s driving you crazy! Also within the Band-in-a-Box® Play Menu is the "Panic should also Reset DXi synth" option, which will clear hung DXi/VSTi notes.

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