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#559244 - 10/15/19 04:09 AM [Pre-Sales FAQ] To much for most Jazz Musicians...
Registered: 01/13/17
Posts: 4
Loc: Denver
Joseph Cannavo Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/13/17
Posts: 4
Loc: Denver
The problem with BIAB (I used it extensively about 20 years ago) is its simply become too complex too comprehensive for many (I didn’t say “all”) straight ahead Jazz musicians to bother with. Both here in Denver and back in NYC the dozens and dozens of horn players I know mostly use IReal book for backing tracks. This is a shame because BIAB is powerful enough to create far more Realistic tacks. But to have to sort through everything from Celtic Cello styles to Chicken Picken guitar is just too much to bother with. And then when you try to get help on the forums there is this attitude thing. Once I was just trying to understand how to pare down to straight ahead bebop/post bop styles (think every thing from Bird up through Chris Potter) in creating tracks, and had to deal with people arguing with me about how Bebop, Hard bop and post bop are not modern jazz. (Hello have you ever gone to Berklee and seen how many omnibooks are in use?). the bottom line is that I would love to use BIAB again, and recommend it to all my students, but they all just go with Ireal. What I don’t get is why in addition to the endless options from mega to ultra to whatever style packs, you don’t just organize options around genre. Why not just have a complete “bebop and beyond” PAC for those of us who play straight ahead. we can live without the Celtic Cellos (and not to knock these styles. I listen to everything from Bird to Bach to Tool. But I play straight jazz). That’s what I need in a backing track. And there is a community out there of players with a similar need. I suppose doing so is not cost effective as there are so many other sorts of musicians you cater too. But I would think others players in other genres could use such focused content. I guess you guys are packaging and parsing BIAB in a way that is most profitable. It just doesn’t work for a subset of us out here.
Joseph P Cannavo


Edited by Joseph Cannavo (10/15/19 04:16 AM)
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Joseph P Cannavo
Not everything can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced.

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#559246 - 10/15/19 04:51 AM [Pre-Sales FAQ] Re: To much for most Jazz Musicians... [Re: Joseph Cannavo]
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 6193
Loc: Chicago
MusicStudent Offline
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Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 6193
Loc: Chicago
This has been a common request from many over the years. Well not necessarily Bebop [ btw that is not attitude, that's humor grin] , but certainly more focus on genre specific style sets.

I had hoped the enhancements to the Style Picker would have been helpful in these cases. In the image below I have selected only Jazz, only Bebop. I get 158 styles to the top of the listing. That should be a quick way to find what BIAB has for this genre. Does that help?


Attachments
Capture.JPG


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#559297 - 10/15/19 10:40 AM [Pre-Sales FAQ] Re: To much for most Jazz Musicians... [Re: Joseph Cannavo]
Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 5477
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Jim Fogle Offline
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Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 5477
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Welcome back to the forum Joseph Cannavo.

It has been awhile since your +++ original post +++ in 2017. I'm glad you decided to visit.

As MusicStudent (Dan) mentioned, the StylePicker has received a lot of attention since 2017 to make it easier for a user to discover styles that line up with their interests.

One interesting development is the addition of the "sort by song" option where a user enters the name of a song and the StylePicker sorts using the song name as a sort term. The song database is constantly updated and there are forum sections where users can suggest song titles to add to the database. The song database can also use specific song arrangements as a sort term in some cases. Here again, if there is a specific song title or arrangement you find missing in the database, suggest it.

You mentioned Abersold and Session Band in your initial 2017 post. There is at least one HUGE advantage has over both. The ausio material from both can be used inside Band-in-a-Box.

The Abersold audio tracks can be analyzed by the Audio Chord Wizard to create additional song arrangements for use as practice material. Once the chord arrangement is inside Band-in-a-Box (Biab) you can transpose to any key signature or shift tempo any way you desire.

Session Band uses audio loops selected by chord sheet. Band-in-a-Box can import loops.


Attachments
Clipboard01.jpg

Description: StylePicker "Sort By Song" Option.


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Jim Fogle
2019 UltraPlusPak BiaB(637) RealBand(Build 5)
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i3 laptop, 64bit Win 7, 8 GB ram, 480GB SSD
Music at: http://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home

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#559756 - 10/18/19 01:17 PM [Pre-Sales FAQ] Re: To much for most Jazz Musicians... [Re: Joseph Cannavo]
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 19315
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 19315
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Joseph, yours is an interesting comment. Have you upgraded to BIAB 2019? If not, you might consider the basic upgrade (to get the new style picker mentioned) and then purchase just the Jazz Pak, here: https://www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.realtracks.jazz.htm

As you can see, PG Music has taken some steps to try to address your request, and it has been a request seen pretty often.

The iReal Pro app differs in its purpose as it is organized by song, so BIAB will always be more versatile. I do use iReal Pro when I'm stuck needing a song quickly, but the first thing I do is key that song into BIAB where it will sound good and I can work with the key, tempo, style etc.

I happen to write contemporary Brazilian jazz, and I enjoy mixing genres that BIAB offers. However, if I were a purist modern jazz bebop player only, then I think I could find ample styles in the Jazz Pak I cited above.

I was surprised to find this topic in the Pre-Sales FAQ Forum, so I went back and re-read your original posts from the regular BIAB forum. It seems to me you have received some pretty good advice overall. You can ignore anything that questions your personal preferences.

You're in Denver; ever hook up with an old classmate of mine, Brad Upton (trumpet)?
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BIAB 2020 Win Audiophile; [& 2019 Mac UltraPak]. Software: Cakewalk, Adobe Audition, Ozone, Encore; Win 10 64 Pro. Hardware: custom i7, 16 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Focusrite 18i20(2), TCE Finalizer, Behringer X-Touch, Adam sub & monitors.

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#559805 - 10/19/19 03:17 AM [Pre-Sales FAQ] Re: To much for most Jazz Musicians... [Re: Joseph Cannavo]
Registered: 11/05/16
Posts: 112
Loc: Europe
Dzjang Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 11/05/16
Posts: 112
Loc: Europe
@Joseph

Too many unused features, too much complexity. If you have simple demands: chords, melody and bass, drums accompaniment... then Biab is much too complicated when compared to iReal.
It would be nice to have a slimmer (midi) version with bass, drs, melody, chords and that’s it.
_________________________
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums.
Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
https://soundcloud.com/jazzstylezz/tracks

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#559806 - 10/19/19 04:12 AM [Pre-Sales FAQ] Re: To much for most Jazz Musicians... [Re: Joseph Cannavo]
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 19315
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 19315
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Dzjang you should put that in the Wishlist.
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#559815 - 10/19/19 06:27 AM [Pre-Sales FAQ] Re: To much for most Jazz Musicians... [Re: Joseph Cannavo]
Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 5271
Loc: South Carolina
Charlie Fogle Offline
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Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 5271
Loc: South Carolina
<<< What I don’t get is why in addition to the endless options from mega to ultra to whatever style packs, you don’t just organize options around genre. >>>

The problem isn't genre. It's songs. According to an article by Stacey Conradt at the Mental Floss web site, "Just because The Beatles did a bang-up job on one song doesn't mean that Joan Baez or Elvis Presley couldn't do the same tune justice in their own unique way." And, "Yesterday has been covered more than 2,200 times, with Joan Baez, Liberace, Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley, En Vogue and Boyz II Men among the many (many) artists to put their own spin on the song."

So, as Bob Segar sings in Against the Wind, "which one to leave in? Which one to leave out?" Also, for instance, what if you want to put your own spin on a song?

You're asking an impossible and unfair task of PGMusic. Matt's provided a good PGMusic derived solution but I suggest you can improve on their 'best guess' of your personal preferences better than they can. Dan and Jim's suggestions on using the new Stylepicker hopefully improve on the results you've received doing your own searches but again, you can improve on their results.

Honestly, if you take Matt's suggestion and purchase the basic upgrade and purchase the Jazz Pak, that combo package would contain dozens of Styles you'd likely never select to use. It would likely contain Real instruments you'd never select. You could send me $250 and I could create a custom Jazz Pak for you from whatever BIAB version and add-on's you have. That combo package would also contain dozens of Styles you'd likely never select to use. It would also contain Real instruments you'd never select.

_BANFOLK RealStyle is listed to be FOLK genre. It's also listed to be compatible with the genres Bluegrass, Folk, Lite Pop, Ballad and Country Classic and Country. A particular instrument of the style is an acoustic bass in a Bossa style. That same bass is also found in other searches. The other searches yield results for Bossa, Jazz, Jazz Ballad, Lite Pop, Smooth Jazz and Latin. Additional searches would I'm sure find more genres. Your point about searching and searches is well taken.

"But I play straight jazz. That’s what I need in a backing track. And there is a community out there of players with a similar need. I suppose doing so is not cost effective as there are so many other sorts of musicians you cater too. But I would think others players in other genres could use such focused content. I guess you guys are packaging and parsing BIAB in a way that is most profitable. It just doesn’t work for a subset of us out here."

Again, that is an impossible and unfair task to burden PGMusic or me with. Though I'd gratefully spend the $250 Nonrefundable fee to create you a custom list of styles... wink

All of the specific style content your "community of players with a similar need" have is there. PGMusic's profitability is of no consequence to your issue. They can't solve your subset personal preferences if they wanted to, for profit or free. They can't totally satisfy your subset of musicians or any one else's. What they can do and have done is supply the tools necessary for you to solve your own problem.

You say; "Not everything can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced." BIAB's too complex, too comprehensive lists of Styles and instruments can be changed. So, if you're willing to face your problem and put in the work, you can easily create your own custom Style list and RealTrack instrument list. Create it. Save it. Use it and share it with the "community out there with a similar need" to what your need is.

Once you have your lists to your liking, any future upgrades and new PaKs, new releases of RealTracks can be auditioned and the ones that are appropriate to you personal Subset Specific Genre, can be added and all the remainder ignored. Whatever Version of BIAB you have, or purchase, they all have a finite number of Styles and RealTracks. Both The Stylepicker and the RealTrack Picker have user defined Favorite Folders. Audition each and every style in your version of BIAB and place your personal picks of appropriate styles that fit your personal subset style of 'straight Jazz' and use that folder for all of your BIAB projects and songs simply ignoring the remainder of Styles. Repeat the process for RealTrack instruments. For all practical purposes, that's what you're asking PGMusic to do for you and the end result is a custom set of styles and instruments that fit your personal needs and wishes.

I can almost guarantee the list you comprise will be much greater and diverse than you imagine. But while the music of your subset is specific, the nature of your issue with BIAB isn't. These forums are full of posts about what BIAB can't do and should do. I can tell of the dozens of times I've posted solutions to these type issues where BIAB can solve the issue or can do their desired task. If there is a reply posted at all, it's usually a rejection the poster is not looking for a 'workaround' (the solution almost never is, but rather, an unused feature of how it's done in BIAB) or they demand a preprogrammed 'button' to push like some DAW (which BIAB is not) has.

If you happen to be the exception, I'll be more than glad to assist you any way I can to help you create a personal favorites folder (at no cost wink or nonrefundable fee) from the tools and techniques available to help parse the task of auditioning down to manageable numbers and time.




Edit: / This process and techniques will also work for Dzjang's need. /





Edited by Charlie Fogle (10/19/19 07:18 AM)
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#567922 - 12/01/19 02:30 PM [Pre-Sales FAQ] Re: To much for most Jazz Musicians... [Re: Joseph Cannavo]
Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 2586
Loc: Sterling, Va
raymb1 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 2586
Loc: Sterling, Va
In my Favorite Styles List, I have all the Poll Winners Styles, the Dolfin style and a couple of funk styles. Those styles cover just about everything I need since like you I'm a straight ahead player. I have no need now to go into the thousands of styles list to find anything.
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