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#535105 - 05/02/19 04:15 AM [Beginners Forum] Need 6/8 beat and then 4/4 in same song
Registered: 05/02/19
Posts: 116
Loc: Sydney, Australia
berntd Offline
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Registered: 05/02/19
Posts: 116
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Hello,
This is my first post...

I need to have 6/8 beat for the verse and then 4/4 for the chorus for "Rose of Washington Square". I am entering the chords only.

I read in the forum how 6/8 is the same as 4/4 in triplets but have no idea how to make that work in practice.

Is there a better description or tutorial or something that will show me how to do this? video?

All suggestions are greatly appreciated.


Best regards
Bernt
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#535149 - 05/02/19 12:48 PM [Beginners Forum] Re: Need 6/8 beat and then 4/4 in same song [Re: berntd]
Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 11011
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
VideoTrack Offline
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Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Welcome to the forums.

This can probably best be achieved by changing Styles at the correct locations within the song.

Start by choosing the 6/8 style for your song.
Select the bar that the chorus starts, press function key <F5> (or right-click and select Bar Settings), and select a 4/4 style from the .STY button option.

Repeat when you need to revert to 6/8 if it's further along in the song.


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#535162 - 05/02/19 02:39 PM [Beginners Forum] Re: Need 6/8 beat and then 4/4 in same song [Re: VideoTrack]
Registered: 05/02/19
Posts: 116
Loc: Sydney, Australia
berntd Offline
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Registered: 05/02/19
Posts: 116
Loc: Sydney, Australia
That is great advice, thanks.

So the style defines what time signature gets used!

I have not seen any 6/8 styles in what I have here. (2019 PRO edition).
Does that mean I cannot do it or is there another way?

Also, I would like the style to match the type in the 6/8 and 4/4. For example jazz swing.


Regards
Bernt
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#535336 - 05/04/19 07:34 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: Need 6/8 beat and then 4/4 in same song [Re: berntd]
Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 19887
Loc: Mi., USA
rharv Offline
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FWIW I'd use Realband for this.
It lets the same style be used over different time signatures better than BiaB in my opinion. Including the use of Time Signatures not even allowed in BiaB (7/4 etc).
You wouldn't need to change styles, just change the time sig for the desired bar(s) and change it back to original after that section, then regenerate.

just a thought
YMMV depending on the style.


Edited by rharv (05/04/19 07:39 AM)
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#558897 - 10/12/19 06:10 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: Need 6/8 beat and then 4/4 in same song [Re: rharv]
Registered: 08/07/05
Posts: 35
ricobasso Offline
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Registered: 08/07/05
Posts: 35
Bump

I can't believe there are no styles in 6/8!!! (BIAB2019) How am going to do chord charts for irish or barn dance tunes

Please someone tell me there are.....

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#558898 - 10/12/19 06:32 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: Need 6/8 beat and then 4/4 in same song [Re: berntd]
Registered: 08/07/05
Posts: 35
ricobasso Offline
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Registered: 08/07/05
Posts: 35
Update, just found this

C_CLANCY M 6/8 sw8 120 Clancy (Irish) Style

However, even after setting my style to this in the song, the leadsheet still says 4/4!?!

Anyone know what I'm doing wrong?

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#558900 - 10/12/19 06:42 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: Need 6/8 beat and then 4/4 in same song [Re: berntd]
Registered: 08/07/05
Posts: 35
ricobasso Offline
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Posts: 35
a 6/8 style in 4/4 was giving me 12/8 so...Have got the playback timing correct by setting the time sig to 2/4 BUT now the chords in the second half of the bar/measure are missing in the leadsheet?!? Grrrrrrrrrrrr

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#558904 - 10/12/19 07:41 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: Need 6/8 beat and then 4/4 in same song [Re: berntd]
Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14238
PeterGannon Offline
PG Music Staff

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14238
Leave it in 4/4. Then open the style picker and type words in the filter like “Celtic” or “6/8” “12/8” etc and choose a style that fits.

You will then enter up to 4 chords per 4/4 bar, with each bar equivalent to two bars of 6/8.

The notation will show in 4/4, but there is a setting on the notation to switch the display to 6/8, so it looks just like your printed notation books.

The only thing you can’t do is enter chords on different triplets, just the first and fourth triplets of the 6/8 bar.

If musicians are playing Macnamaras Band, they don’t count it in in 6/8 and it’s not hard to count it in 4/4 as you play it. It’s just notation display that’s 6/8. Realizing that opens up a world of style possibilities to mix any 4/4 styles with 6/8 or 12/8.

Jazz swing music is actually 6/8 or 12/8, it is just by convention it is notated in 4/4 with a marking saying the eighth notes are triplets.
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#558905 - 10/12/19 07:46 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: Need 6/8 beat and then 4/4 in same song [Re: PeterGannon]
Registered: 08/07/05
Posts: 35
ricobasso Offline
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Posts: 35
Originally Posted By: PeterGannon

The only thing you can’t do is enter chords on different triplets, just the first and fourth triplets of the 6/8 bar.


But that's precisely what I do want to do!

In any case, I don't follow what you're saying - a bar a 6/8 only has two triplets in my book. If there are four triplets; that's 12/8, isn't it?

yours totally confused confused

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#558907 - 10/12/19 07:50 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: Need 6/8 beat and then 4/4 in same song [Re: berntd]
Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14238
PeterGannon Offline
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Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14238
A bar of 6/8 has 6 beats strictly speaking.
But you group them in threes, so then it has two groups of triplets. You can put a chord in each of those.

Load up some jig styles and load the songdemo for them and see many examples of how this works.

For example, here are the words for a bar of macnamaras band. Each bracketed group is a beat in 4/4.

[NAME is] [MAC na] [MAR a] [ I’M the ]

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#558908 - 10/12/19 08:06 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: Need 6/8 beat and then 4/4 in same song [Re: PeterGannon]
Registered: 08/07/05
Posts: 35
ricobasso Offline
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Registered: 08/07/05
Posts: 35
Originally Posted By: PeterGannon
A bar of 6/8 has 6 beats strictly speaking.
But you group them in threes, so then it has two groups of triplets. You can put a chord in each of those.

Load up some jig styles and load the songdemo for them and see many examples of how this works.


I understand this and I have loaded a jig style (c-clancy)......so, why did you mention "the first and fourth triplets in 6/8" in your first reply??

Like I said before, I have got the playback timing correct by setting the time sig to 2/4 BUT now the chords in the second half of the bar/measure are greyed out in the main window and completely missing from the leadsheet printout.

To put it another way: 2/4 gets me two triplets in each bar 4/4 gives me four triplets, which I do not want.

I want two triplets and two (different) chords per bar. There must be a way of doing this or do I have to go back to pen and paper?!

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#558999 - 10/13/19 02:25 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: Need 6/8 beat and then 4/4 in same song [Re: berntd]
Registered: 08/07/05
Posts: 35
ricobasso Offline
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Registered: 08/07/05
Posts: 35
I have looked at macnamaras band (zz_irish.sty). It has the same issues as c_clancy.sty. Labelled as 6/8 but displays 4/4 and sounds four triplets per bar, i.e actually 12/8.

I need to be able to change chord every triplet in certain parts of the song.

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#561739 - 10/31/19 06:59 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: Need 6/8 beat and then 4/4 in same song [Re: berntd]
Registered: 08/07/05
Posts: 35
ricobasso Offline
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Registered: 08/07/05
Posts: 35
Bump.

Still haven't got an answer to this.

to recap and paraphrase: how do I get a triplet style like zzirish and c_clancy to play two triplets per bar (measure) and have two chords per bar. i.e. a chord change every triplet

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#561744 - 10/31/19 07:38 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: Need 6/8 beat and then 4/4 in same song [Re: berntd]
Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 6130
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Jim Fogle Offline
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Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 6130
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
What it appears that you're asking is for Band-in-a-Box to print notation exactly as you want it to appear. If I am wrong, please correct me as I admit I do not have a clear understanding of your intent.

If my understanding is correct then what you are wanting the program to do may not currently be possible. The only way to find out for sure is to continue substituting styles, regenerating and looking at test printouts.

The issue is the primary goal of the Band-in-a-Box program is song arrangement. The program is not as full featured when it comes to printing out notation.

You may find it easier to arrange songs in Band-in-a-Box and save the song as a midi, MusicXML or ABC Notation file and then import the file into a notation program such as +++ Forte +++ or +++ MuseScore +++ .
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#561787 - 10/31/19 01:54 PM [Beginners Forum] Re: Need 6/8 beat and then 4/4 in same song [Re: ricobasso]
Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 16560
Loc: Australia
Noel96 Offline
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Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 16560
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: ricobasso
Bump.

Still haven't got an answer to this.

to recap and paraphrase: how do I get a triplet style like zzirish and c_clancy to play two triplets per bar (measure) and have two chords per bar. i.e. a chord change every triplet

Hi ricobasso,

In the 2/4 bars, if you want to get one chord on each tripet, use a comma between the chords.

e.g. entering C,F will put C on beat 1 and F on beat 2.

Alternatively, right-click on the chord sheet and open "Chord Settings", this will also allow chord entry on individual beats.

Over the years, I've found that 12/8 styles work pretty well as 6/8 styles. The main difference is that in 12/8 there are four dotted 1/4 note beats with rhythmic strengths of (S)trong (W)eak (M)edium (W)eak (i.e. it's a 4/4 time based on triplets). A 6/8 time signature, on the other hand, has (S)-(W) beats. The (M) beat of 12/8 (i/e beat 3) often doesn't sound all that different to the first (S) beat of 12/8 or 6/8.

Also, given that in a great deal of music, bars are often paired in a Strong/Medium grouping, a 12/8 feel can quite easily come across as 6/8.

Quote:
An example of this (S)-(M) bar grouping is found in the opening bars of Mozart's 40th Symphony. While this is in 2/4, the bar groupings go |(S)|M)|S)|(M)| and give a 4/4 feel.



DIRECT LINK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaUn28PUy8Y

In other words, it's worth trying 12/8 styles because it's possible that they will work for 6/8.

To get the notation in 12/8 to show as 6/8 in print-outs, there is a button in "Notation Editor" that modifies the display to do this. (See the image below.)

Hope that this, in addition to Jim's fine advice above, helps.

Regards,
Noel


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#561877 - 11/01/19 02:23 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: Need 6/8 beat and then 4/4 in same song [Re: Noel96]
Registered: 08/07/05
Posts: 35
ricobasso Offline
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Registered: 08/07/05
Posts: 35
Originally Posted By: Noel96
In the 2/4 bars, if you want to get one chord on each tripet, use a comma between the chords.


hello Noel and thanks for taking the time to reply. I must be missing something because what you describe above does not work for me.

e.g. I load up ZZIRISH.sty and change the time sig to 2/4 for all bars. The indicated time sig in the top banner does not change from 4/4 but all the bars now have a red underline. If I enter "C,F" it just occupies the first half of the bar. If I "enter C, enter F", the F goes into the second half of the bar but it is greyed out and does not play.

thinks...........Eureka!!!

Maybe, just maybe, I get it. BIAB is actually playing only the first half of each bar while leaving the display showing the full 4 beats/triplets. Well!! What a daft way of doing it and how confusing!!!


Edited by ricobasso (11/01/19 02:24 AM)
Edit Reason: lighbulb emoji dispalyed as a url

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#561878 - 11/01/19 02:32 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: Need 6/8 beat and then 4/4 in same song [Re: berntd]
Registered: 08/07/05
Posts: 35
ricobasso Offline
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Registered: 08/07/05
Posts: 35
Another niggle. If I select 6/8 in the leadsheet window, the original 4/4 or 2/4 does not change until I close and re-open the leadsheet window. Then the 6/8 is displayed twice, before and after the repeat barlines!! Intented or a bug?

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#561887 - 11/01/19 03:19 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: Need 6/8 beat and then 4/4 in same song [Re: berntd]
Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 16560
Loc: Australia
Noel96 Offline
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Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 16560
Loc: Australia
Hi ricobasso,

What you see as 'bars' on the chord sheet are actually cells - like in Excel. It is the time signature that determines how much of a cell is used.

Each cell has the potential to contain 4 beats. This means that cells align with bars in 4/4 time. In 2/4 time, though, only beats 1 and 2 of the cell are needed. This is why any chord after beat 2 will be greyed out.

Similarly, in 3/4 only beats 1, 2 and 3 are required and so if a chord is placed on beat 4 in 3/4, it will be greyed out.

I'm not sure if this is a bug or not. Would you mind posting a screen shot of the problem so that I can see it?

The link below explains how to post an image.

https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=472139#Post472139

Regards,
Noel


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#561980 - 11/01/19 03:24 PM [Beginners Forum] Re: Need 6/8 beat and then 4/4 in same song [Re: Noel96]
Registered: 08/07/05
Posts: 35
ricobasso Offline
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Registered: 08/07/05
Posts: 35
here are the screenshots


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Edited by ricobasso (11/02/19 02:59 AM)

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#561983 - 11/01/19 03:59 PM [Beginners Forum] Re: Need 6/8 beat and then 4/4 in same song [Re: berntd]
Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 16560
Loc: Australia
Noel96 Offline
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Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 16560
Loc: Australia
Thanks. Those images help a lot.

That's definitely a bug. I'll pass it onto the developers and reference this thread so that they can see the problem.

To access the "File Manager" to upload graphics, it's necessary to "Switch to full reply screen" -- the button is directly beneath the "Quick Reply" window.
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