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#580132 - 02/09/20 04:13 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 311
funkycornwall Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 311
If you know what tempo changes you might require in a song then you can make them in BIAB standalone. For instance you might have verses at one tempo and chorus slightly faster then back to normal verse tempo and maybe a different tempo for the bridge. Maybe you might want a gradual slow at the end you can do all this in bar settings. Once you have all the tempos as you would like them you can export the song as a midifile into your DAW. This song will include all the correct tempo changes. Now when you export your RealTracks or RealDrums from BIAB to your newly created DAW song they should all line up perfectly with the tempos.

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#580160 - 02/09/20 07:59 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14251
PeterGannon Offline
PG Music Staff

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14251
> But, the truth is, it will show up dumb as a rock, not know the songs, the key, tempo or chord progression.... You have to tell it everything.

The Audio Chord Wizard (available in BIAB and RB) figures out tempos, chords and key from audio without you telling it anything.
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PG Music Inc.

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#580163 - 02/09/20 10:09 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: PeterGannon]
Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 5751
Loc: South Carolina
Charlie Fogle Offline
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Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 5751
Loc: South Carolina
Originally Posted By: PeterGannon
> But, the truth is, it will show up dumb as a rock, not know the songs, the key, tempo or chord progression.... You have to tell it everything.

The Audio Chord Wizard (available in BIAB and RB) figures out tempos, chords and key from audio without you telling it anything.


Not to argue with the owner of the company but I don't feel I can leave you thinking I was dissing the program. Not the case at all. You missed the context of my remark. I was discussing the poster's work flow bringing BIAB tracks into his DAW.

In that context, I had compared BIAB/RB to a session musician arriving at a recording session for the poster's project. The session musician arrives not knowing the songs, the key, tempo or chord progression. You have to tell the musician about your project. I was telling the poster that BIAB/RB arrives at his DAW session the same way.
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#580164 - 02/09/20 10:27 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Charlie Fogle]
Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 11186
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
VideoTrack Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 11186
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Thanks for clarifying, Charlie. I saw exactly where you were coming from, and actually had a quiet chuckle laugh .

But you've clarified just in case some thought it was a negative remark (which it wasn't smile ).

Trev
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#580200 - 02/10/20 08:30 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
Registered: 03/07/18
Posts: 1962
Rustyspoon# Offline
Expert

Registered: 03/07/18
Posts: 1962
I suggested it earlier, I will add this again as I think it might be relevant.

Maybe it is a good idea to have a splash screen on the start with couple of video tutorials offered, right from the "start".

For example:
1)Getting started.
2)Complete backing track making.
3)All tutorials.

For the first one something very simple 3-5 minute walk through on basic stuff.

For the second something more complex: bar changes, tempo changes, use of soloist, etc. Still making a single song, not just parts of the project. So the first time user sees the whole process / workflow.

And third will point to website to all tutorials.

And of course have a tick on the bottom "do not display on start"
I have seen similar approaches on couple of software titles. Very effective.

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#580222 - 02/10/20 10:04 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 20300
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 20300
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Yes, having the splash screen with help for new users is a good idea, with the checkbox to turn off.
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#580399 - 02/11/20 10:49 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
Registered: 01/27/20
Posts: 10
Loc: Germany
Roland S Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/27/20
Posts: 10
Loc: Germany
Hi Charlie,

Very helpful. I missed this tutorial, as I started with BIAB 2020.

Although I already have the tempo map in my DAW, it looks as if RB could help me to analyze tempo variations and even time signature changes in a very comfortable way in the future.

It would be even nicer if the BIAB plugin would try to follow the tempo map of my DAW as other plugins do. If necessary learning and storing the time signature and tempo changes during some dry run before any styles are selected and further tracks are generated.

But as it looks at the moment, I have to copy some of the track(s) to RB or BIAB Standalone first, analyze the tempo and the chords, save the song there, start the BIAB plugin in my DAW, importing the BIAB song and hoping that the plugin and the DAW will stay in sync. A bit clumpsy kind of procedure, but it may work.

Cheers
Roland
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#580405 - 02/11/20 12:16 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 5751
Loc: South Carolina
Charlie Fogle Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 5751
Loc: South Carolina
< It would be even nicer if the BIAB plugin would try to follow the tempo map of my DAW >

It can be done. I'm not sure if the Plugin does, but certainly the full Band in a Box program or RealBand does.

If you export an audio track from your DAW project, and use the Audio Chord Wizard from either Band in a Box or RealBand, it will create a tempo map that will faithfully and accurately follow that audio so when you export a midi or RealTrack back into your DAW to use it as a track in your project, it will be in sync with your DAW project.

You can also use the click track method from the tutorial above but it will likely not be as exact as a tempo map created from the Audio Chord Wizard (ACW)


Edited by Charlie Fogle (02/11/20 12:17 PM)
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#580425 - 02/11/20 04:07 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14251
PeterGannon Offline
PG Music Staff

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14251
> It would be even nicer if the BIAB plugin would try to follow the tempo map of my DAW as other plugins do.

Agreed. Currently I’m unaware of any protocol that would allow a plugin to retrieve the tempo map that is set in the DAW. Plugins are intended to be “live” (ie processing MIDI or audio in real time) so they don’t get much access to things while they are stopped.

There’d be a (slightly awkward) way of doing it, by exporting a MIDI file from the DAW and then dragging that midi file onto the plugin, where the plugin could then read tempos and time sigs from the MIDI file. That’s not implemented yet for the plugin, its something we’re planning.
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Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.

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#580426 - 02/11/20 04:09 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14251
PeterGannon Offline
PG Music Staff

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14251
> It can be done. I'm not sure if the Plugin does, but certainly the full Band in a Box program or RealBand does.

Yes, BIAB and RealBand allow making bar/tempo maps like that. The plugin doesn’t.
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Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.

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#580464 - 02/11/20 10:44 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
Registered: 01/27/20
Posts: 10
Loc: Germany
Roland S Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/27/20
Posts: 10
Loc: Germany
Hi Peter,

Thanks for your reply. It's good to hear about the planned improvements for the plugin.

As working as an IT Manager for software, I can imagine the challenges your software engineers are facing with my kind of requests and a huge product like BiaB with such a long history. Besides the technical challenges you also have to deal with the diverting expectations of your traditional customers and new ones who may ask for new concepts. I don't expect any miracles.

I am also aware of the challenges in conjunction with real time processing, especially when it comes to time critical operations like audio processing. Again, I don't expect any miracles.

Just some hint: It might be worth if your software engineeers for the plugin have a deeper look into the ARA protocol. I don't have a deeper understanding of it. But from what I figured out, programs like Melodyne Studio must face similar challenges like BIAB, despite the fact that they serve a different purpose. And Celemony does an excellent job when it comes to seamless integration with all kind of DAWs.

It may not work for BIAB in the end, but is always worth having a look what others do.

Cheers
Roland
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BiaB2020 Ultra+, Win 10 64 bit, AMD 6-core, 32GByte RAM, RME Fireface UFX, Samplitude ProX4, REAPER 6, Melodyne Studio, Toontrack SD3, iZotope MP3, NI Komplete 10, Korg Collection, etc.

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#580759 - 02/13/20 10:13 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14251
PeterGannon Offline
PG Music Staff

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14251
> It might be worth if your software engineeers for the plugin have a deeper look into the ARA protoco

Yes, we’ve had a look at that. It seems ideally suited to modifying a selected region of DAW audio. I’m not aware of what information it can get from a DAW when playback isn’t happening, such as the full tempo map, or chord names.
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Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.

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#580938 - 02/15/20 01:17 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
Registered: 01/27/20
Posts: 10
Loc: Germany
Roland S Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/27/20
Posts: 10
Loc: Germany
Hi Peter,

Let me quickly explain where I see the parallels and the integration potential for BIAB using ARA2.

Also the Melodyne plugin has to analyze the input coming from the DAW. It does so when applying the plugin to an existing audio track. The Melodyne plugin takes the song tempo from the DAW and analyzes the audio file for the played notes. After that it seems to share the file with the DAW. Meaning that all changes done within the plugin are directly available for playback and further effect processing in the DAW.

The main difference between BIAB and Melodyne is, that BIAB creates tracks itself, whereas Melodyne just uses existing ones. But that shouldn't be a big problem.
In case of the BIAB plugin, it would be necessary to do some assignment between one of the BIAB tracks and the DAW track, likely using the audio track in BIAB as a start. The full tempo map could come from the DAW, like in Melodyne. If not using your ACW function as equivalent to what Melodyne does, a chordsheet import could also be an option.

Within the Melodyne plugin, I can switch between the tracks or work on several tracks in parallel. That's pretty similar to what happens within the BIAB plugin already. But with BIAB I currently don't have the separate tracks in my DAW. I have to import them one by one, every time I make a change in BIAB. Creating a track in the DAW first, assigning the BIAB plugin and sharing the respective track in BiAB would be a more natural workflow.

With Melodyne, many DAWs offer an audio to Midi conversion, creating a new separate midi track in the DAW on demand. In case of BIAB, the equivalent would probably be to create and assign a Midi Super track to the new DAW track.

The good thing about ARA2 is, that all major DAWs I know already support it. According to the time it took to get there, it must have been quite some effort for the DAW providers to adapt such a standard. So it should be in their interest to make most out of it and to re-use it whereever possible.
What I don't know though, is the policy and willingness of Celemony to share this standard with other products. But if you are interested you should be able to find out. At the end of the day it might be a win/win situation for both companies and definitely for the customers.

Cheers
Roland
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BiaB2020 Ultra+, Win 10 64 bit, AMD 6-core, 32GByte RAM, RME Fireface UFX, Samplitude ProX4, REAPER 6, Melodyne Studio, Toontrack SD3, iZotope MP3, NI Komplete 10, Korg Collection, etc.

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#581172 - 02/16/20 11:32 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: PeterGannon]
Registered: 01/06/15
Posts: 167
Loc: Vienna, Austria
Masi Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 01/06/15
Posts: 167
Loc: Vienna, Austria
Originally Posted By: PeterGannon
Currently I’m unaware of any protocol that would allow a plugin to retrieve the tempo map that is set in the DAW. Plugins are intended to be “live” (ie processing MIDI or audio in real time) so they don’t get much access to things while they are stopped.

There’d be a (slightly awkward) way of doing it, by exporting a MIDI file from the DAW and then dragging that midi file onto the plugin, where the plugin could then read tempos and time sigs from the MIDI file. That’s not implemented yet for the plugin, its something we’re planning.

Without ARA the audio plugins are listening to the live audio stream for analysis. If the plugin could listen to the MIDI stream it should be able to derive the tempo map from MIDI the clock. As the plugin is an instrument it could be placed on a dedicated MIDI track in every DAW.

It could be required to play the complete length of the song once to get the tempo map into the plugin, but without the need of exporting or importing MIDI files. Maybe the plugin could gather the data even if the DAW is rendering the track offline.

Masi

PS: Dragging MIDI files into the plugin would be great for adding the soloist to the plugin.
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#581177 - 02/16/20 12:33 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Masi]
Registered: 02/05/15
Posts: 5108
Pipeline Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/05/15
Posts: 5108
You should be able to get and set the tempo map from the BB Plugin in Reaper with API:

Count DAW tempo markers for BB plugin:
int CountTempoTimeSigMarkers(ReaProject* proj )

Get DAW tempo map for BB plugin:
bool GetTempoTimeSigMarker(ReaProject* proj, int ptidx, double* timeposOut, int* measureposOut, double* beatposOut, double* bpmOut, int* timesig_numOut, int* timesig_denomOut, bool* lineartempoOut )

Add tempo markers to DAW from BB Plugin tempo map:
bool AddTempoTimeSigMarker(ReaProject* proj, double timepos, double bpm, int timesig_num, int timesig_denom, bool lineartempochange )

Same with Chords:
int AddProjectMarker2(ReaProject* proj, bool isrgn, double pos, double rgnend, const char* name, int wantidx, int color )





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#581263 - 02/17/20 12:35 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
Registered: 10/08/15
Posts: 1128
Loc: Philippines
Trygve Larsen Offline
Expert

Registered: 10/08/15
Posts: 1128
Loc: Philippines
Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
If you export an audio track from your DAW project, and use the Audio Chord Wizard from either Band in a Box or RealBand, it will create a tempo map that will faithfully and accurately follow that audio so when you export a midi or RealTrack back into your DAW to use it as a track in your project, it will be in sync with your DAW project.

Originally Posted By: PeterGannon
Yes, BIAB and RealBand allow making bar/tempo maps like that. The plugin doesn’t.

Just wonder, when it's already done for audio, why is it not done for Midi? When we load midi with bar/tempo maps included, BiaB cant't/will not read it... This makes is useless as a serious midi program for MANY midifiles, classical music in particular, I guess. I have no idea why this is not done, but wonder IF it is on the table to be implemented?

Because, THAT is the last obstacle to import/render/ and add Real tracks/Drums to ANY midifiles, AND it would make BiaB SUPERIOR in an unmatched way, to any other music program software out there, as far as I can understand...
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Trygve "Leo" Larsen
BiaB 2020, Windows 8.1, Intel Core i5 CPU, 270GHz, 32 Gb RAM
My OLD tracks on Soundcloud; https://soundcloud.com/trygve-larsen My NEW is unpublished
The Universe = Uni-verse ie one song.

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#581287 - 02/17/20 05:40 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Rob Helms]
Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 5751
Loc: South Carolina
Charlie Fogle Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 5751
Loc: South Carolina
You may want to experiment with rendering your midi file to audio and and having the ACW create a tempo map. I have no idea how accurate that will work for classical music but it works like a champ for easy listening, rock and country that's normally a single time signature. There is a tutorial video about creating a click track in RealBand and creating a click track may be a useful first step to identify areas that have different time signatures if that's applicable to your song project.
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#581383 - 02/17/20 09:50 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Charlie Fogle]
Registered: 10/08/15
Posts: 1128
Loc: Philippines
Trygve Larsen Offline
Expert

Registered: 10/08/15
Posts: 1128
Loc: Philippines
Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
You may want to experiment with rendering your midi file to audio and and having the ACW create a tempo map. I have no idea how accurate that will work for classical music but it works like a champ for easy listening, rock and country that's normally a single time signature. There is a tutorial video about creating a click track in RealBand and creating a click track may be a useful first step to identify areas that have different time signatures if that's applicable to your song project.

Yes, that is a good workaround. So I'll have that in mind next time I have a long midifile with a lot of BPM variations. But STILL badly want PG Music to implement midi BPM readings.. wink

Perhaps I should make a post about it here to see how many others also want that...
_________________________
Forever Grateful, BUT, sometimes pissed of. wink
Trygve "Leo" Larsen
BiaB 2020, Windows 8.1, Intel Core i5 CPU, 270GHz, 32 Gb RAM
My OLD tracks on Soundcloud; https://soundcloud.com/trygve-larsen My NEW is unpublished
The Universe = Uni-verse ie one song.

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#581405 - 02/18/20 02:05 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Trygve Larsen]
Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 11186
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
VideoTrack Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 11186
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Trygve Larsen
So I'll have that in mind next time I have a long midifile with a lot of BPM variations. But STILL badly want PG Music to implement midi BPM readings.. wink

Perhaps I should make a post about it here to see how many others also want that...

Yes, unless PGM already have that in progress, that's a good starting point.
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#581812 - 02/21/20 01:22 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: My thoughts regarding the future [Re: Pipeline]
Registered: 01/27/20
Posts: 10
Loc: Germany
Roland S Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/27/20
Posts: 10
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Pipeline
You should be able to get and set the tempo map from the BB Plugin in Reaper with API:

Count DAW tempo markers for BB plugin:
int CountTempoTimeSigMarkers(ReaProject* proj )

Get DAW tempo map for BB plugin:
bool GetTempoTimeSigMarker(ReaProject* proj, int ptidx, double* timeposOut, int* measureposOut, double* beatposOut, double* bpmOut, int* timesig_numOut, int* timesig_denomOut, bool* lineartempoOut )

Add tempo markers to DAW from BB Plugin tempo map:
bool AddTempoTimeSigMarker(ReaProject* proj, double timepos, double bpm, int timesig_num, int timesig_denom, bool lineartempochange )

Same with Chords:
int AddProjectMarker2(ReaProject* proj, bool isrgn, double pos, double rgnend, const char* name, int wantidx, int color )







Great job and another smart way to create tempo maps and chord sheets. However this is not exactly what I mean with "seamless integration".

From the nature of BiaB it is obvious and I understand that it needs the chord sheet somehow. However as plugin version it should always follow the tempo and the time signature of the DAW whereas the standalone version may do it's own stuff. That's the main difference between a plugin and a standalone version. If an initially imported midi file helps the plugin to do so, that would be fine with me. But the plugin could also pick the project tempo from the DAW as a start and detect/store the DAW tempo and time signature during a first run through.

Obviously, if the tempo is changed by the user in the DAW, the plugin should detect such a deviation as it has to re-render the affected areas of the audio tracks in such a case. If that couldn't be done on the fly, ok with me. Some dropouts until the re-rendering is completed, would be tolerable from my point of view.

Editable time signatures and project tempo boxes should be obsolete within the plugin. Even the bars information should be obsolete in the plugin. The plugin should always follow the DAW from the first bar to the last bar of the song and if it runs out of chords on its way, so be it. Let's amend the chordsheet in this case.



Edited by Roland S (02/22/20 01:28 AM)
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Band-in-a-Box® 2019 Mac Update Ready!

Just because Band-in-a-Box® 2020 for Mac is here doesn't mean we've forgotten our 2019 users!

If you're still using Band-in-a-Box® 2019, make sure you download the latest patch update (b324) for an updated splash screen (macOS 10.12 and 10.13 users), smoother Song Titles dialog, access to your (purchased) RealTracks Set 328, and we've corrected the reported issue with opening songs from older versions of Band-in-a-Box in the 2019 version.

Learn more about this patch and download it here.

Review - Loops-with-Style PAK 2 for Band-in-a-Box® 2020

"Dr. Dave" Walker is at it again! You may remember his recent reviews of both Band-in-a-Box 2020 for Mac and Xtra Styles PAK 9 - now he has something to say about our Loops-with-Style PAK 2 - check it out: Click here to read...

With money being tight for most musicians, this is a wonderful gift for those on a limited budget. At $29, it offers months and years of fun and experimentation, bringing many ideas to fruition as songs with enough variation so that your audience doesn’t jump to "aw, that's a computer!" while still keeping the power of the software in your hands.
-"Dr. Dave" Walker

Thank you again Dr. Dave for the great review!

Learn more about Loops-with-Style PAKs: Windows | Mac

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