PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Covid 19 Virus (Corona)

Last year my Father-in-Law caught pneumonia and I had to take him to A&E in Hong Kong. As my dependent, he has a HK ID card. After triage and a 6-8 hour wait he was taken into infectious diseases unit for possible H1N1 and then 2 weeks in intensive care. Total cost for over 4 weeks in hospital about $400 US. Also a friend's wife is in isolation after she came into contact with a Covid-19 customer in her hairdressing salon.
Here's her on-going blog
https://www.self-employedmummy.com/post/my-fear-of-the-unknown-coronavirus-day-1-in-quarantine?fbclid=IwAR2jIiX_Bzio0rj8xmcIEUgDir3GHk4wepEtMulLLGXjLec0RlUyaq0ezWA

This is not for the light of heart but was enough to get me to demand my family go into isolation now we're being hit with round two of the virus here in Hong Kong.

A Medical Worker Describes Terrifying Lung Failure From COVID-19 — Even in His Young Patients
“It first struck me how different it was when I saw my first coronavirus patient go bad. I was like, Holy [*****], this is not the flu. Watching this relatively young guy, gasping for air, pink frothy secretions coming out of his tube.”
by Lizzie Presser March 21, 5 a.m. EDT

As of Friday, Louisiana was reporting 479 confirmed cases of COVID-19, one of the highest numbers in the country. Ten people had died. The majority of cases are in New Orleans, which now has one confirmed case for every 1,000 residents. New Orleans had held Mardi Gras celebrations just two weeks before its first patient, with more than a million revelers on its streets.

I spoke to a respiratory therapist there, whose job is to ensure that patients are breathing well. He works in a medium-sized city hospital’s intensive care unit. (We are withholding his name and employer, as he fears retaliation.) Before the virus came to New Orleans, his days were pretty relaxed, nebulizing patients with asthma, adjusting oxygen tubes that run through the nose or, in the most severe cases, setting up and managing ventilators. His patients were usually older, with chronic health conditions and bad lungs.

Since last week, he’s been running ventilators for the sickest COVID-19 patients. Many are relatively young, in their 40s and 50s, and have minimal, if any, preexisting conditions in their charts. He is overwhelmed, stunned by the manifestation of the infection, both its speed and intensity. The ICU where he works has essentially become a coronavirus unit. He estimates that his hospital has admitted dozens of confirmed or presumptive coronavirus patients. About a third have ended up on ventilators.

His hospital had not prepared for this volume before the virus first appeared. One physician had tried to raise alarms, asking about negative pressure rooms and ventilators. Most staff concluded that he was overreacting. “They thought the media was overhyping it,” the respiratory therapist told me. “In retrospect, he was right to be concerned.”

He spoke to me by phone on Thursday about why, exactly, he has been so alarmed. His account has been condensed and edited for clarity.

“Reading about it in the news, I knew it was going to be bad, but we deal with the flu every year so I was thinking: Well, it’s probably not that much worse than the flu. But seeing patients with COVID-19 completely changed my perspective, and it’s a lot more frightening.”

This is knocking out what should be perfectly fit, healthy people.

“I have patients in their early 40s and, yeah, I was kind of shocked. I’m seeing people who look relatively healthy with a minimal health history, and they are completely wiped out, like they’ve been hit by a truck. This is knocking out what should be perfectly fit, healthy people. Patients will be on minimal support, on a little bit of oxygen, and then all of a sudden, they go into complete respiratory arrest, shut down and can’t breathe at all.”

They suddenly become unresponsive or go into respiratory failure.

“We have an observation unit in the hospital, and we have been admitting patients that had tested positive or are presumptive positive — these are patients that had been in contact with people who were positive. We go and check vitals on patients every four hours, and some are on a continuous cardiac monitor, so we see that their heart rate has a sudden increase or decrease, or someone goes in and sees that the patient is struggling to breathe or is unresponsive. That seems to be what happens to a lot of these patients: They suddenly become unresponsive or go into respiratory failure.”

The lung is filled with so much fluid, displacing where the air would normally be. “It’s called acute respiratory distress syndrome, ARDS. That means the lungs are filled with fluid. And it’s notable for the way the X-ray looks: The entire lung is basically whited out from fluid. Patients with ARDS are extremely difficult to oxygenate. It has a really high mortality rate, about 40%. The way to manage it is to put a patient on a ventilator. The additional pressure helps the oxygen go into the bloodstream.

“Normally, ARDS is something that happens over time as the lungs get more and more inflamed. But with this virus, it seems like it happens overnight. When you’re healthy, your lung is made up of little balloons. Like a tree is made out of a bunch of little leaves, the lung is made of little air sacs that are called the alveoli. When you breathe in, all of those little air sacs inflate, and they have capillaries in the walls, little blood vessels. The oxygen gets from the air in the lung into the blood so it can be carried around the body.

“Typically with ARDS, the lungs become inflamed. It’s like inflammation anywhere: If you have a burn on your arm, the skin around it turns red from additional blood flow. The body is sending it additional nutrients to heal. The problem is, when that happens in your lungs, fluid and extra blood starts going to the lungs. Viruses can injure cells in the walls of the alveoli, so the fluid leaks into the alveoli. A telltale sign of ARDS in an X-ray is what’s called ‘ground glass opacity,’ like an old-fashioned ground glass privacy window in a shower. And lungs look that way because fluid is white on an X-ray, so the lung looks like white ground glass, or sometimes pure white, because the lung is filled with so much fluid, displacing where the air would normally be.”

This severity ... is usually more typical of someone who has a near drowning experience ... or people who inhale caustic gas.

“With our coronavirus patients, once they’re on ventilators, most need about the highest settings that we can do. About 90% oxygen, and 16 of PEEP, positive end-expiratory pressure, which keeps the lung inflated. This is nearly as high as I’ve ever seen. The level we’re at means we are running out of options.

“In my experience, this severity of ARDS is usually more typical of someone who has a near drowning experience — they have a bunch of dirty water in their lungs — or people who inhale caustic gas. Especially for it to have such an acute onset like that. I’ve never seen a microorganism or an infectious process cause such acute damage to the lungs so rapidly. That was what really shocked me.”

You’ll try to rip the breathing tube out because you feel it is choking you ...

“It first struck me how different it was when I saw my first coronavirus patient go bad. I was like, Holy [*****], this is not the flu. Watching this relatively young guy, gasping for air, pink frothy secretions coming out of his tube and out of his mouth. The ventilator should have been doing the work of breathing but he was still gasping for air, moving his mouth, moving his body, struggling. We had to restrain him. With all the coronavirus patients, we’ve had to restrain them. They really hyperventilate, really struggle to breathe. When you’re in that mindstate of struggling to breathe and delirious with fever, you don’t know when someone is trying to help you, so you’ll try to rip the breathing tube out because you feel it is choking you, but you are drowning.

“When someone has an infection, I’m used to seeing the normal colors you’d associate with it: greens and yellows. The coronavirus patients with ARDS have been having a lot of secretions that are actually pink because they’re filled with blood cells that are leaking into their airways. They are essentially drowning in their own blood and fluids because their lungs are so full. So we’re constantly having to suction out the secretions every time we go into their rooms.”
I do not want to catch this.

“Before this, we were all joking. It’s grim humor. If you are exposed to the virus and test positive and go on quarantine, you get paid. We were all joking: I want to get the coronavirus because then I get a paid vacation from work. And once I saw these patients with it, I was like, Holy [*****], I do not want to catch this and I don’t want anyone I know to catch this.
About This Story

The medical details in this story were vetted by an infectious disease doctor, a cardiologist and an internist at three different hospitals. All of the information about ARDS, the condition that the respiratory therapist describes, was fact-checked against peer-reviewed articles and UpToDate, a resource for physicians to check current standards in care, clinical features, and expected complications and outcomes.
“I worked a long stretch of days last week, and I watched it go from this novelty to a serious issue. We had one or two patients at our hospital, and then five to 10 patients, and then 20 patients. Every day, the intensity kept ratcheting up. More patients, and the patients themselves are starting to get sicker and sicker. When it first started, we all had tons of equipment, tons of supplies, and as we started getting more patients, we started to run out. They had to ration supplies. At first we were trying to use one mask per patient. Then it was just: You get one mask for positive patients, another mask for everyone else. And now it’s just: You get one mask.

“I work 12-hour shifts. Right now, we are running about four times the number of ventilators than we normally have going. We have such a large volume of patients, but it’s really hard to find enough people to fill all the shifts. The caregiver-to-patient ratio has gone down, and you can’t spend as much time with each patient, you can’t adjust the vent settings as aggressively because you’re not going into the room as often. And we’re also trying to avoid going into the room as much as possible to reduce infection risk of staff and to conserve personal protective equipment.”

Even if you survive ... it can also do long-lasting damage.

“But we are trying to wean down the settings on the ventilator as much as possible, because you don’t want someone to be on the ventilator longer than they need to be. Your risk of mortality increases every day that you spend on a ventilator. The high pressures from high vent settings is pushing air into the lung and can overinflate those little balloons. They can pop. It can destroy the alveoli. Even if you survive ARDS, although some damage can heal, it can also do long-lasting damage to the lungs. They can get filled up with scar tissue. ARDS can lead to cognitive decline. Some people’s muscles waste away, and it takes them a long time to recover once they come off the ventilator.

“There is a very real possibility that we might run out of ICU beds and at that point I don’t know what happens if patients get sick and need to be intubated and put on a ventilator. Is that person going to die because we don’t have the equipment to keep them alive? What if it goes on for months and dozens of people die because we don’t have the ventilators?

“Hopefully we don’t get there, but if you only have one ventilator, and you have two patients, you’re going to have to go with the one who has a higher likelihood of surviving. And I’m afraid we’ll get to that point. I’ve heard that’s happening in Italy.”

Corona is an anagram of Racoon so to a dyslexic is it a Racoon Virus?

(lame attempt to lighten up)

There is no way to predict how bad it is going to be. I suspect sooner or later most of us will be exposed to it. "Flattening the curve" by closing everything will allow the medical establishment to handle it better and thus save lives.

I read that in Italy anyone over 60 years old doesn't get a ventilator, because there aren't enough to go around.

That's a good reason to self-quarantine and flatten that curve here in the US, Canada, and elsewhere.

We're economically self-quarantined, bands are banned, restaurants are closed, beaches are closed, malls are closed, and all our gigs are cancelled.

But we're safe and showing no symptoms, so I'd rather be broke than sick.

Insights and incites by Notes

Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.

John Adams


Be well!

Bud

Bob,

I'm normally optometrist, but I have so much stacked against me; age (79); general health; prior major health issues (stroke); ad infinitum so I really don't expect my wife nor myself to make it through this crisis.

Also, I see countless violations of safe health practices that none of we patients will survive and the other homes are even worse. The local hospital and the VA no longer recommend this home and that's a death-blow. Mysteriously, State Health Inspectors are blind to the violations. Are they being bribed? I am helpless to dig deeper for fear of retaliation.

My kids have become involved so my level care is about to improve soon. My youngest son calls daily to check on my quality of care.

Don,

I'm so glad that people are watching out for you. I saw a marked improvement in my mothers care in the nursing home when they realized there were 3 children who were in there several times a week making sure she was getting proper care.

Take care my friend. I wish the best for you, Joanne and Don Jr.

I just saw an article headline where it said "the surgeon general gives grim warning".

It then dawned on me that under the current administration, when I see a statement by the Surgeon General, the Attorney General, the Secretary of State, or any other person in the Executive branch of government, that I have have NO confidence in what I'm hearing because they are all terrified of Trump and will only say whats been pre approved by him.

That is a sad position for our country to be in. Especially in a time of crisis. I know there will be accusations of "politics" from Trump supporters but I'm going to call bullsh*t on that in advance.

I've called out Obama, "Dubya" Bush, Clinton, daddy Bush, Reagan and every other president that's been in office when I thought they were in the wrong.

I am sick of people people acting as if its treason to call out an incompetent fool, a con man and a liar just because he managed to get elected.

So, should I click on the link with a message from the Surgeon General? Or is it just going to be a message from Trump with someone else's face and voice?

Dr. Anthony Fauci is the only one I've seen willing to contradict the president and speak the truth. It's too bad we don't elect people like him. The only problem is, people like him don't seek power.

Don, I’m not a praying man, but you have my best wishes and a promise to worry along with you.

A couple of other forums that I’m involved in are populated by members of the Medical and Public Health communities. One sub forum which is made up of some friends of mine from the Philadelphia area had a nurse who asked a question about some rumored delivery of PPEs in a given amount by today. She said that the President had said they would be delivered and wanted to know if it was true.

The truly sad thing about even having to ask a question like that in a time of crisis, is that if the POTUS says something, you should be able to take it to the bank. We have a White House thot has so often used “alternative facts” that now when he says things, or his representatives say things, you don’t know if what you are being told is the truth, or an alternative fact. That might be good practice for a political campaign but it doesn’t work for a country that supposedly is on a war time footing.

Fauci gets frank about Trump: ‘I can’t jump in front of the microphone and push him down’

(copy and paste the link to read)

https://www.bing.com/search?q=Fauci+Trump&filters=tnTID%3a%225CD93417-2322-4949-BE45-EA884A180008%22+tnVersion%3a%223449613%22+segment%3a%22popularnow.carousel%22+tnCol%3a%226%22+tnOrder%3a%224f52b294-a955-4300-9c55-459c0e3d6637%22&FORM=BSPN01&crslsl=0

We are so lucky that good people continue to stand next to trump and try to keep him honest. His cult ignores them of course but at least those of us who listen can get factual information.

From the NY Times

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/23/health/coronavirus-drugs-remdesivir.html

Bob I know your busy contributing positively to the world condition but next time before you get on that high horse: please READ which post I was referencing (aka RTFQ) then you may get my sardonic use of the word “hyperbole.” Otherwise explain how is it irresponsible to reference JJJ’s post insinuating that maybe, when Belladonna needs a lifesaving ventilator, there might not be one for Belladonna? (Yes I realize JJJ was generalizing - but that generalized set includes Belladonna)

I'll leave this one at that
Larry

Larry,

I'm not egocentric enough to believe I'm "contributing positively to the world condition" but I am trying to be a better person and part of that is speaking up when I do believe our country is under assault not only from people who mean to do it harm, but also by well meaning folks who are being deceived by an incredibly proficient con man.

If I misunderstood which post you were referring to, then I apologize for my mistake.

I was going to post the following by itself, but I guess this is as good a place as any to include it:

As a registered Republican and someone who loves our country dearly, I have a statement and a question for all of my Republican, Democrat, Independent, Libertarian and Socialist friends.

We are now seeing the kind of nightmare that can happen when we elect a megalomaniacal reality TV host with no political experience at all when it comes to leading a diverse nation during a crisis.

Who would've thunk it?

I’ll lighten the mood for a few seconds. I read this earlier (I made it family friendly):

“Your Grandparents were called to fight in world wars. You are asked to wash your hands and sit on the couch. Don’t screw this up.”


====

Back to not so light. Since this has become a “we are the on the moral high road and some of you are not” thread and I was so hurt after being admonished many posts back to drop this thread (you don’t believe I felt hurt that do you?)

Forum rules: #9 “All of the forums except for the Off Topic forum are for discussions of PG Music products only. The Off Topic forum is used for MUSIC-RELATED discussions that aren't about PG Music products. Please keep all your posts as constructive as possible.”

I'm still looking for the music related and/or CONSTRUCTIVE posts on this thread.

There is nothing constructive on this thread and hasn’t been for many pages. This thread has been reduced, primarily, to a barrage of, listings of, and statements of “the numbers get worse everyday” - That’s what a growth function does it shows increasing numbers, sorry math is math. No to mention lately how the administration sucks, can't be trusted, probably secretly caused this (I just made that one up to make some forum member feel good and to see how many idiots quote it), how "he" stole my free lollipop,...

There are posts with links about hospitals running low on gloves, and masks, and gowns, and beds,… and quotes from famous immunologists and epidemiologists and doctors, and 3rd world expert bureaucrats galore. Al of which we can Google ourselves so why put it here (yes, I'm I hypocrite I you'll notice I put my own links later - LOL).

Folks you truly want to do something “constructive” then offer up you house as mini aide station/hospital extension and move to a tent in your backyard. Frankly if we don’t get our collective heads out, and get back to work NOW, you might just be living there soon enough, think your grandparents circa 1930. Offer up your car, SUV, truck as an ambulance - you aren’t using it to go anywhere anyway. etc.

How is sitting at home and wringing your hands, patting each other on the back about how you care more than the next guy, or doing the old back handed "compliments" and down right frontal attacks on the president (frankly I don't give two turds about whether you trust him, like him, voted for him or not - show support you downright "upright" irresponsible people) is somehow being more “responsible” to or for the world.

FYI - I have zero intention of doing any of the above or anything even remotely like that for my fellow citizens. I did my 21 plus another 30 for them already, so the “kids” can carry it the rest of the way (or not – up to them).

A little background for our new viewers at home watching the “we must worry” or we are being irresponsibility WWW station:

I’m an old guy (Vietnam vet), so I am at least as old as most here and I’m in the CV-19 HIGH risk group. I have heart disease, Type II diabetes, I'm way overweight, I’m a former 4-pack a day smoker when I quite 10 years ago, had lots of respiratory problems as a kid even at that I started smoking about the age of 10 [yea I know you’d think I’d know better but… nope], plus all the run-of-the-mill old guy issues bad knees, bad back, neuroma's in both feet, neuropathy in both feet and legs, macula degeneration, a prostate the size of Texas, plus I’ve probably got a little plaque on the gray matter and scores of other issues but I don't dwell on any of it. All of that was to explain that I’m not outside the possibly affected CV-19 group, who knows I might even get CV-19 and die, crap happens: you're born - you die - that's cold but its FACT - (since we are so fact based here now).

Let us really get the hackles up, as a bonus feature my wife is Chinese, all of her relatives live in Taiwan and that aside SHE agrees: TRUMP IS RIGHT THIS IS A CHINA CAUSED EVENT they hid it for OVER a month while 5M (5,000,000) people departed for all points of the compass to pass it on to all you "administration" haters as well as the rest of the population.

BTW: Come here and call her a racist and she’ll kick you in your nether regions, hard and repeatedly - LOL.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2019%E2%80%9320_coronavirus_pandemic_in_November_2019_%E2%80%93_January_2020#17_November_2019

https://www.businessinsider.com/5-million-left-wuhan-before-coronavirus-quarantine-2020-1


Therefore, I think my views and thoughts on this topic are as valid as anyone else’s here ('m old and at risk and I DON'T stay home). I have just as much skin in CV-19 game as the average member of the U.S. population. Additionally, unlike most of the average U.S. population, at least I’m actual “scientist,” I don’t play one on TV or the interweb. I’m a mathematician, statistician, and operational researcher, with a “way back when” undergrad microbiology minor - so I think I can follow a simple exponential curve without fear, awe, panic, reverence, or other useless affectation.

Some look at an exponential curve and get all tingly inside and think OMG it will go to infinity (and beyond); therefore, the world is doomed: the curve DOES NOT and the world is not. There are always natural boundary conditions, growth limiting and reduction factors (e.g., treatment, cures, other human intervention) that keep most biological exp. curve's in check.

I predict we won’t even break 10M dead world wide. Yes, that’s a big number and cold when and heartless when stated so matter-of-factly, and I'm sorry I know the death of loved ones hurt but it is also part of life. Although, if right 10M would be barely half of the cardiovascular deaths world wide a year (~17.8M) but what do I know. Post me when we get to 10M + 1 to gloat about how wrong I was.

https://ourworldindata.org/causes-of-death

If you read to here – you must really be bored out of your skulls!

Larry

Yeah, it is racist to call COVID-10 the Chinese virus. And very stupid too! Why would anyone with half a brain crap on the country that just might be able to help us medically and economically?

It is also stupid to tout unproven drugs as possible cures until proper testing has been done. https://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle/2020/03/23/man-dead-from-taking-chloroquine-after-trump-touts-drug-for-coronavirus/

As Bob has said repeatedly this is not a political issue and has nothing to do with Republicans or Democrats. This is about the extraordinary danger a reality TV star has put us in.

Remember, a person who either settled out of court or was convicted of fraud was elected POTUS. And you expect to believe anything he says?

So to be constructive, don't believe the present administration. Get your facts from the less political WHO instead.

Do self-isolate, keep a social distance, and take protective measures.

Despite our best efforts at this, the WHO predicts 70% of the world population will get this. The effort is to "flatten the curve" so that the hospitals have room for you and a ventilator if you need it. In Italy, the hospitals are so full that the rule is "anybody over 60 doesn't get a ventilator." That's a death sentence.

When there are so many dying that the doctor can't save them all, the doctor has to make a decision that almost no doctor wants to make; Who will live and who will die?

Insights and incites by Notes

You mean the same WHO that tweeted January 14th that China confirmed the virus is not transmissible by human to human contact? Trump also never said the virus is a hoax, if you think he did post the link.

Bob

Here's what he said: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-coronavirus-rally-remark/

Hi Larry,

You mentioned in your post above that your wife has relatives in Taiwan. I don't know if this news has made it to the USA but Taiwan is a COVID-19 success story with just 135 cases and two deaths as of March 20.



DIRECT LINK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjqD_9ScTlA

Because of a nasty experience with SARS around 2003, Taiwan learnt from that experience and had measures and strategies in place when COVID-19 was first detected. These measures have proven to be powerful.

In my view, Taiwan should have a place at the World Health Organisation as this country's experience is unique and other countries can learn a great deal from it.

The above video is a very interesting watch.

Regards,
Noel

P.S. I'm with you regarding politics. What I find fascinating is...

• this forum is Canadian
• it is the internet travelling lounge for people from countries spread all around the world
• even though these forum pages contain comments from many nations, it is, by and large, just the USA comments that branch out into politics

A while ago, there was a post in this thread where someone from the US was demanding their right to freedom of speech. As a Canadian forum, though, there are limitations on how far that freedom can extend. I don't think that that person was aware of this. (As an Australian, when I read that comment, it came across as a little bit arrogant and as out of place on these pages.)

It made me think: "Should I start jumping up and down about my federal and state governments? Am I doing the wrong thing by keeping quiet about Australian politics and COVID-19? I wonder what other forum members from around the world and PG Music would think if I started being noisy, too?"

P.P.S. The above said, I have found the COVID-19 health information and statistics given by a number of people in this thread very valuable and insightful and I appreciate the time and trouble that they have gone to to detail it. For those reasons alone, I think the thread is valuable.

Exactly. Also this came out today:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/us-was-most-prepared-country-in-the-world-for-pandemics-johns-hopkins-study-found-in-2019

The US was the most prepared country in the world for a pandemic? All I've read is how crappy we've been including here. I'm getting a little tired of it guys.

This is a serious situation, keep politics out of it.

Bob