I am wanting to do instrumental music production (jazz, new age, classical) to make tracks to record my sax with. For Pro use, NOT backing tracks for practice.
How do I best use a midi controller like the Akai MPK 261 with BIAB/Real Band so that I can do my music production on the keyboard rather than the laptop.
If for "Pro use" I would recommend that you render your files in BB and Real band into wave and transfer them to a decent DAW. Do your mixing and live recording into the DAW software. That's how I and many others do their recording in this forum.
If you need further clarification, simply ask your questions.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 05/07/2003:47 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
I recently completed a CD of 17 tracks all done in this mannner
Worked out band arrangements in BIAB (all real tracks no midi). Export Biab tracks as Wav files to DAW (LogicPro) Record me (Guitar) in DAW Mix/Master (Logic) Used CD Baby to produce the CD's and EasySong Licensing to handle the copyright.
Came out pretty nice, at least to me.
Allowed me to focus on playing and learning improving my DAW knowledge. A positive experience.
As an aside, I did not use the audiophile version although it was available at time. Personally I don't think you need to spend the $$$. We spent a few hours auditioning 2 different BIAB version on 3 different speaker sets ($500 - $5000) and concluded the difference was marginal at best. That's just our ears and our $.02. YMMV
Thanks. Much appreciated. By "wave" you mean from the audiofile upgrade?
I was hoping not to have to learn a new DAW.
What's the downside to doing it all in Real Band.
Basically nothing. Some people are more comfortable in their DAW of choice. For some people RB IS their DAW of choice. If RB is working for you, then technically there is no downside. You can get the same quality recordings and end results in RB as you can in other DAWs .. it's basically a preference. Mainly from a comfortable workflow point of view.
You can do things in other DAWs that you can't do in RB .. and you can do things in RB that you can't do in the same other DAW. If RB starts causing issues or limitations, worry about another DAW then, but until then keep making music.
Make your sound your own! .. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Basically nothing. Some people are more comfortable in their DAW of choice. For some people RB IS their DAW of choice. If RB is working for you, then technically there is no downside. You can get the same quality recordings and end results in RB as you can in other DAWs .. it's basically a preference. Mainly from a comfortable workflow point of view.
You can do things in other DAWs that you can't do in RB .. and you can do things in RB that you can't do in the same other DAW. If RB starts causing issues or limitations, worry about another DAW then, but until then keep making music.
I am a user of another DAW, i.e. Studio One Pro. I do use RealBand on occasion. BUT I have always said if you do not have a favorite DAW then by all means use RealBand. Even if you do have a favorite DAW there are things that RealBand can do that others and BiaB can not do. I learned that from rharv.
Thus I agree with him and start with RealBand.
A final note; the sound of the finished product has nothing to do with whatever DAW you are using. That sound depends on whatever sound sources and effects you are using.
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
I agree with everything said. For what you described, a DAW will be imperative. You don't need to learn a new one, if you are already familiar with RealBand, though.
Trying to do everything on a keyboard sounds really difficult, and frankly like it could become frustrating to get the results you're looking for.
Thanks. Much appreciated. By "wave" you mean from the audiofile upgrade?
I was hoping not to have to learn a new DAW.
What's the downside to doing it all in Real Band.
No, not the audiophile .... your normal BB will export the files in WAV format.
Real Band is a DAW and you are free to use it in that manner. It can generate more tracks than BB will do, and tracks outside of the style you selected in BB. For example, if you want to use LA Hard Rock style, you get guitars, bass, and drums. But in RB you can add things like fiddle, steel, etc to the style. I have a number of songs where that exact thing was done.
Doing it on the computer..... yeah, you might not be a techie but there is a certain amount of knowing the computer and how to work with it that is required to get to the "pro" levels with your music.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 05/08/2009:09 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
Using a DAW is not that difficult. The hard part is understanding music and what it is you want out of it. A lot of people get stand-offish when it comes to technology but if you know what you want out of it then half the issues are gone.
From my perspective using a DAW seems easier than understanding a keyboard. There is more flexibility in a DAW. I would not recommend getting into Reaper for example as a DAW to initially learn in. But there are many good DAWs out there and some are free with really good features and lots of really good videos about teaching you how to use them. If you are on a PC then Cakewalk by BandLab is a good place to start. Using the basics of Cakewalk is not really that difficult.
However, if you want your music to sound like it is made by a pro you need several things. A good knowledge of music and sound is the most important, a really good understanding of arranging, a good feel for sound and reasonable understanding of your DAW. You don’t need to understand every feature of a DAW but just the parts you use.
My thoughts Tony
HP i7-4770 16GB 1TB SSD, Win 10 Home, Focusrite 2i2 3rd Gen, Launchkey 61, Maton CW80, Telecaster, Ovation Elite TX, Yamaha Pacifica 612 BB 2022(912) RB 2022(2), CakeWalk, Reaper 6, Audacity, Melodyne 5 Editor, Izotope Music Production Suite 4.1
From my perspective using a DAW seems easier than understanding a keyboard. There is more flexibility in a DAW. I would not recommend getting into Reaper for example as a DAW to initially learn in. But there are many good DAWs out there and some are free with really good features and lots of really good videos about teaching you how to use them. If you are on a PC then Cakewalk by BandLab is a good place to start. Using the basics of Cakewalk is not really that difficult.
My thoughts Tony
Thanks Tony. I guess it just seems strange and slow to input a bass or piano part into a computer rather than just playing it on a keyboard to put it in.
I havn't actually started in on Real Band yet. So do you think that Cakewalk is easier to use or better in some way?
I should mention that I am looking at doing some fairly simple music. Piano, Bass, with contemporary grooves and occasionally some layers of other stuff.
Also, as far as understanding musical sound are there any resources you would suggest, books, videos, courses, etc? I have had courses in arranging at the college level, but never anything to do with music production, which seems to be a lot more involved and closer to being a studio engineer or something.
Thanks Tony. I guess it just seems strange and slow to input a bass or piano part into a computer rather than just playing it on a keyboard to put it in.
If your keyboard is a MIDI controller or if it has a MIDI out then you can play your keyboard into a computer. For example select a track in your DAW and assign a bass sound to it. Then play a bass part on your keyboard and have it go to that computer bass track. You have just recorded a bass track by using your keyboard. It really isn't that hard.
Originally Posted By: saxgentleman67
I havn't actually started in on Real Band yet. So do you think that Cakewalk is easier to use or better in some way?
No learn RealBand first then move on if you need something different. Many use RealBand as their only DAW.
Originally Posted By: saxgentleman67
I should mention that I am looking at doing some fairly simple music. Piano, Bass, with contemporary grooves and occasionally some layers of other stuff.
Also, as far as understanding musical sound are there any resources you would suggest, books, videos, courses, etc? I have had courses in arranging at the college level, but never anything to do with music production, which seems to be a lot more involved and closer to being a studio engineer or something.
I would suggest that you start with PGMusic's videos to learn all about the software that you already have. Be sure to take baby steps and don't try to learn everything all at once. This stuff isn't that hard if you take it slow.
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
I began my DAW learning on Band In A Box and Power Tracks by PG music. The simplicity and the fly-by hints plus this forum and others really helped me get off to a good start. I think PG still sells Power Tracks. It's very easy to use and although it's quite limited I don't think it would bother a novice at all. Plus, it's pretty good with midi as long as you are using a hardware midi synth.
I am wanting to do instrumental music production (jazz, new age, classical) to make tracks to record my sax with. For Pro use, NOT backing tracks for practice.
How do I best use a midi controller like the Akai MPK 261 with BIAB/Real Band so that I can do my music production on the keyboard rather than the laptop.
To your original question; Did you install the Akai MPK 261 drivers onto your computer and connect it with a USB cable? Once you do this and choose the Akai as the midi input in RealBand you will be able you play the Akai and RealBand will record the midi data. You will choose a midi output synth and RealBand will play back what you recorded. Cakewalk by Bandlab (free) comes with Cakewalk TTS-1 DXi Synth. Choose the TTS-1 as your output synth and you are off to a start.
For me, I like to stay inside BIAB as much as possible (even if I use loopbe instead of VST inside of BIAB)... Biab is the source and is easy to use as long as you keep the “sound” department out of it. As the DAW enthusiasts rightly say, the sound tweaking possibilities inside BIAB are there, but to prone to glitches or crashes.
But, I stick to BIAB as the midi source. Using the Conductor inside Biab is great for PRO use and for Live playing. It’s easy to manually repeat or skip parts, truncate or elongate a tune... steer it. In MIDI, switching parts is easy, no stuttering, no “catching up”, no beat skipping.
I use a McMillen midi footswitch to help me with selecting and skipping parts, for repeats and all. Keeps my hands free to play piano or guitar. But the AKAI is an incredible keyboard. I sometimes use the arturia keylab, great stuff, but not really the Akai MPK...
That, and great Kontakt libraries. Some of these kick so much *ss, like Abbey Road Drums or Analogue Drums’ Pizazz, there are instruments out there that never cease to blow my mind.
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
... the AKAI is an incredible keyboard. I sometimes use the arturia keylab, great stuff, but not really the Akai MPK...
That, and great Kontakt libraries. Some of these kick so much *ss, like Abbey Road Drums or Analogue Drums’ Pizazz, there are instruments out there that never cease to blow my mind.
Do you prefer the Kontakt sounds to the Real Tracks?
I havn't bought the akai keyboard yet, but figured it was a good way to enter in the piano, bass parts at least.
... the AKAI is an incredible keyboard. I sometimes use the arturia keylab, great stuff, but not really the Akai MPK...
That, and great Kontakt libraries. Some of these kick so much *ss, like Abbey Road Drums or Analogue Drums’ Pizazz, there are instruments out there that never cease to blow my mind.
Do you prefer the Kontakt sounds to the Real Tracks?
I havn't bought the akai keyboard yet, but figured it was a good way to enter in the piano, bass parts at least.
They are both good tools to have. I use mostly MIDI and Kontakt is my go to sound source. Many of Kontakt's and third party presets are simply amazing. I use Kontakt with my keyboard, wind, and guitar controllers.
I prefer MIDI because I can play what instrument I want when I want it. MIDI is much more tweakable than RTs. I prefer that over cutting and pasting audio, i.e. RTs. But others use RTs with great success and sometimes I use a RT or two in my songs.
So it is not an either or situation. Use what is best for you at any given time.
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Some Kontakt libraries are sooo intricate and detailed. If you use “normal” drum sounds from keyboards or Soundfonts, you won’t believe your ears when using Abbey Road drums or Analogue Drums. Impact Soundworks’ archtop guitar, Scarbee’s Rhodes, Session Horns, simply unbelievable stuff, the Grandeur piano from native...
Mario has an informed balanced view, very open ended, respect... but I have ditched Realtracks altogether and have no regrets.
I much prefer the flexibility of MIDI and sample libraries over realtracks. The charm of real players is, imo, easily compensated by the quality of the samples and the flexibility of MIDI.
The Akai looks like a professional choice to make: not cheap, but really easy to use and with a good keyboard. On the other hand, I once bought a miditech-keyboard, costs nothing, but the keyboard is -unexpectedly- fabulous.
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
... the AKAI is an incredible keyboard. I sometimes use the arturia keylab, great stuff, but not really the Akai MPK...
That, and great Kontakt libraries. Some of these kick so much *ss, like Abbey Road Drums or Analogue Drums’ Pizazz, there are instruments out there that never cease to blow my mind.
Do you prefer the Kontakt sounds to the Real Tracks?
I havn't bought the akai keyboard yet, but figured it was a good way to enter in the piano, bass parts at least.
I used to use a controller only style keyboard for this purpose. But, for what you want to do a simple Yamaha (or other accompaniment/synth/keyboard) will do just fine and probably better than a controller only like the Akai you are looking at. I currently use a Yamaha YTP-400 I got for $70 used after my $400 Edirol controller started having issues. It has a pitch bend wheel which you may or may not use. It does the midi input as well as the play back for me to hear as I record. If the Yamaha quits working or has issues I wouldn't buy a controller only again. I will likely replace it with another accompaniment keyboard. There are plenty of these accompaniment keyboards that do a whole lot for not much money. The Yamaha keyboard connects to my computer with a USB cable. The midi data goes back and forth through the USB cable. Once the midi is recorded I can change that, bass line for example, over to the Sampletank Bass, SI-Bass that came free with Cakewalk or any VSTi I choose. I think this is what you are trying to accomplish. I suggest keep it simple to start with. I first went a little complicated only to find out the simple stuff does well enough with a shorter learning curve.
I used to use a controller only style keyboard for this purpose. But, for what you want to do a simple Yamaha (or other accompaniment/synth/keyboard) will do just fine and probably better than a controller only like the Akai
That is helpful. I was wondering if I needed something that expensive. Although I like the idea of getting something with semi-weighted keys. What I have now doesn't have a good feel.
The more I read these comments the more I think maybe I shouldn't be using BIAB. But rather making my own tracks from scratch. Especially since I want to do something with compelling contemporary grooves.
I had thought Real Tracks were the way to go, but it sounds like there are definitely other options too.
The thing about BIAB is, imo, this: You have a song, you like it, but you grew tired of it. You can always find styles to change the whole feel. Ok, the stock styles are not always great, but there are some great ones. And there's some other styles on the market that are more modern (mine certainly...).
For example, much as I love Dolphin Dance, I like to -occasionally- change the whole feel, even go for 6/8 or more straight and then more swinging. Same thing with the music I compose, I want to check what different approaches can add to the music.
Keeps me motivated for practicing and playing.
Don't give up on BIAB yet.
Njoy
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
saxgentleman67, you may find certain genres are better done in BIAB versus a keyboard workstation. You initially mentioned jazz, new age, and classical. I think jazz is particularly strong in BIAB using real tracks, as long as you stick with the rhythm section stuff - especially guitars. I don't find the realtracks soloist or horn parts very usable/believable, so I'm using them as the foundation, and adding my own keyboards and vocals. I've been using BIAB for less than a month and am amazed at the results so far. And I also agree with the suggestion to try other styles - if nothing else, just to get a fresh take on some things. Combining genres often gets some very usable tracks - I've mixed some bossa nova guitars with other rhythm styles and love the results. I especially think Oliver Gannon's guitar tracks are very flexible - perhaps because he had a great understanding of how BIAB works.
I have yet to hear any MIDI tracks that hold a candle to the realism of the realtracks, even with higher end sound plugins, but would love to be proven wrong.
I would think you would have difficulty using Realtracks for new age and classical styles.
Chuck Wiggins
BIAB 2023 Win UltraPak, Cakewalk, Windows 10 Pro Custom AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core, Focusrite Scarlett 4x4 interface
I have yet to hear any MIDI tracks that hold a candle to the realism of the realtracks, even with higher end sound plugins, but would love to be proven wrong.
I have yet to hear any MIDI tracks that hold a candle to the realism of the realtracks, even with higher end sound plugins, but would love to be proven wrong.
@MarioD - Do you accept this challenge?
My music is in the showcase forum so they are free to go and give a listen.
As for another challenge I would like them to take a sax RT and turn it into a guitar track like I can in MIDI.
RTs and MIDI and not an either or situation. Both are tools to use when needed.
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Agree that it's not either/or, I just haven't yet found MIDI based tracks (either as a whole MIDI production or mixed with Realtracks or audio) that my ears don't soon tell me are not "real". I've listened to some user showcase things, but if anyone has particularly good examples I should focus on, I'm "all ears".
I'm mainly dealing with a fairly narrow genre - small ensemble jazz, and largely needing Biab to provide guitar/bass tracks that I can add my own keyboards and vocals to. As I mentioned, I don't find the Realtracks horn parts very usable (too "generic" sounding, which I guess is the goal ) ,and don't really have a need for them anyway. And I am adding my own piano/electric piano and sometimes vibes/marimba parts, which are using MIDI sound sources. My cross section is admittedly narrow - and a place where I find the Realtracks jazz guitar and bass parts exactly what I needed to complete some projects on my own. I do think the acoustic guitar is especially difficult to make believable in the MIDI world. If I do find things I can't accomplish with the Realtracks, Ample Sound guitars are the place I'll turn. Their classical guitar modeling/sampling and tools are pretty amazing.
The stuff I'm doing so far are cover tunes, so I can't post them here. But when I get a chance I'll put something original together just for an example.
Last edited by cwiggins999; 05/13/2007:32 AM.
Chuck Wiggins
BIAB 2023 Win UltraPak, Cakewalk, Windows 10 Pro Custom AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core, Focusrite Scarlett 4x4 interface
Oh I understand now. You have picked one of the hardest instruments to emulate via MIDI, i.e. a guitar.
Like all MIDI instruments you have to have a very good sound source and then learn how to emulate the nuances of said instrument via MIDI continuous controls, CCs. The guitar is one of the hardest to emulate. Part of the problem is that there are so many guitar sounds and techniques that picking the right one for your song is very challenging.
You can get very realistic horn and woodwind sounds with a good sound source, a wind controller or a breath controller or a keyboard controller with an expression pedal though. Those controllers can work wonders with strings also.
Good luck and have fun.
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Personally I think it should be against the law to even attempt to recreate the sound of a saxophone:) Bad enough with all the amateurs making it sound like a lawn mower.
It seems though that professional quality sound is realistic for at least bass and drums and piano. And that's all I really need.
My biggest concern is getting lazy and falling into the trap of just using the pre done rhythm tracks, instead of taking the time to create something original, that doesn't end up sounding like accompaniment software.
I would add that I'm a jazz guy. I only thru in the new age and classical because I'm not entirely sure what I am trying to do musically with this. Probably jazz/instrumental pop of some sort. But NOT the R & B groove of smooth jazz. Likely mostly latin stuff.
I had the thought to do this when hearing that pop singer Billy Eilish had her brother, Finneas produce the tracks for her songs. And it sounded pretty good to me, like a real band.
Latin and Brazilian influenced jazz are my strongest interests at this point, and I think you would be happy with the BIAB realtracks results in those categories. I do find the piano tracks a little less appealing than the guitar tracks, and perhaps that's due to the way realtracks are chopped up for "reconstruction". As I mentioned, I've been using Biab for less than a month. I initially bought it because I wanted to be able to lay out chord charts and have them converted to simple MIDI chord patterns for processing thru some plugins. I had very low expectations and didn't know anything about the Realtracks feature, so all of that has been a revelation to me. I can see where they wouldn't work as well for some styles, but for the basic framework of jazz and jazz/pop they have been effective and fast to create.
Chuck Wiggins
BIAB 2023 Win UltraPak, Cakewalk, Windows 10 Pro Custom AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core, Focusrite Scarlett 4x4 interface
Personally I think it should be against the law to even attempt to recreate the sound of a saxophone:) Bad enough with all the amateurs making it sound like a lawn mower. ................
Now that made me LOL!
I would like you to listen to the sax in this song and the give me a real appraisal on it. Don't worry if you think it stinks as I have been told that before but if you have any constructive criticisms I would like to hear them.
I am using me wind controller and the Swan Saxophones from Audio Modeling. I am a guitarist first, then a bassist, wind controller and lastly I play a little keyboard.
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Not bad. I think it captures the essence of a mediocre to good sax player. Although I think part of why it works is because of the slow tempo. I like that the tone is appropriate to the style. Especially when there are so many kinds of sound on the sax, from the glass-shattering brightness of Arthur Blythe to the darkness of Joe Henderson.So it comes off as sensitive and tasteful. The really bad saxophone sounds tends to be at high speed. And you avoided what I've really heard be problematic: sounding like an accordion. Or too much vibrato. I guess it's been a while since I've heard artificial sax. Also the reverb helps it a lot. This clip reminds me very much of the sax from a Seinfeld episode playing "You Stepped Out of a Dream". My only constructive crit is that a real sax player would take a lot more liberties with it. Less stiff. But I think that's on you, not on the sound. Then again, perhaps you intentionally kept it straight. Most sax players do tend to over do it because it's too easy to play a million notes on the sax.
I usually play slow songs with my emulated sax sounds. One reason is that I really can't play fast on my wind controller. The wind controller is my latest instrument and I really don't practice it like I should.
Second is the fact that the emulated sax sounds like crap in the higher registries. Part of that is because I haven't played with the settings.
Both of these are on me but I much rather play guitar, bass, and BiaB! I am a lazy ol' coot!
Thanx for you time.
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
The things I miss the most are articulations and dynamics that a "real" sax would typically have. So the sample can be pretty close and still miss those aspects. I know there are tons of control options available thru MIDI and most sample instruments set up custom key switches, etc. to try to emulate what a player would do. But IMHO it still doesn't fool me into thinking there's a sax player involved. I also sometimes go down the rabbit hole of tweaking my own keyboard parts to remove/fix wrong notes, etc., and usually come back up saying, "it would have been quicker to just do another take and get it right" :-)
I don't know if it's still common, but some keyboards I've had over the years also had a breath controller input - just for blowing air while playing keys, not like an EWI or standalone musical controller. I tried using it a bit myself, but not much joy. And I don't recall seeing anyone ever use one on stage.
I keep having a blast sampling the huge number of styles and style demos - found some great soprano sax tracks from Eric Marienthal that I may actually use. Like saxman, I'm not a smooth jazz fan. But I mixed one of the smooth jazz soprano solos (1060 - setting it at half-time) with the rest of the band playing bossa nova at 140 and it sounds great! Now I'm going to spend some time with the Soloist module - plug in the basic song melody to see if the RealTracks soloist will play around (rather than on top of) the melody (which will be a vocal). So most of my my Biab time so far is finding serendipitous ways of expanding creativity.
I still feel that I've only barely scratched the surface of what Biab/Realtracks can accomplish.
Last edited by cwiggins999; 05/14/2005:48 AM.
Chuck Wiggins
BIAB 2023 Win UltraPak, Cakewalk, Windows 10 Pro Custom AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core, Focusrite Scarlett 4x4 interface
Eat this... real musicians, A nice Eberhard Weber tune and a custom Band in a Box style, Kontakt libraries. I always struggled with the rhythm. Upon “inspection” it turns out to be 3/4+3/4+2/4=8/4 It’s based on Indian music (but on the record it sounds like Coltrane’s Favorite Things) and is essentially a truncated waltz rhythm, Indian musicians would,sing the rhythm as TaKaTa (3/4), Takata (3/4), Taka (2/4) Bad mix, though. Sorry ‘bout that.
I didn’t record a solo. Also didn’t use volume pedal or pitch wheel, which would make it more realistic still. Check out the “real version”. Charlie Mariano’s solo is just sooo great.
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
Definitely nicely stretching the stylemaker capabilities of BiaB in terms of time signatures and syncopation. The soprano sax is nice - initially I thought it sounded like an oboe, but I listened to the original and Mariano has a different tone than a lot of soprano players - that "ECM" sound - so puts it more oboe-like IMHO. (And reminds me of my favorite jazz oboist, Paul McCandless, who has worked with Weber on several projects). So, nicely done.
For me, it's the technique that makes a synthetic instrument sound more believable. Gino Vanelli had some amazing albums in the early 70s that were all keyboards except for the drums. And this is way before MIDI sequencing, VST plugins, etc. His brother Ross was the arranger and one of the keyboardists. This track from Powerful People has a "trumpet" part at 1:14 and 2:15 that is obviously a synthesizer. But his technique - keyboard virtuosity, modulation/pitch bend, etc. makes me think "TRUMPET" even though my ears tell me differently. (And there is the suggestion of a "sax" at 1:40 - only lasts a couple of seconds, but it's enough to perk my ears up every time, and I've been listening frequently to this song for 46 years) So whether a part is played in real time or meticulously step/event edited, there has to be a good understanding of how a real player would play that specific instrument. Some plugins seem to be doing a good job of providing scripted functionality that helps with the realism - I mentioned being impressed by the Ample Sound acoustic guitars.
I guess everyone's criteria is different. I don't expect that I or other musicians would always be fooled by a synthetic instrument, but my goal would that be a fairly sophisticated non-musician listener wouldn't be distracted by something not sounding realistic.
Chuck Wiggins
BIAB 2023 Win UltraPak, Cakewalk, Windows 10 Pro Custom AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core, Focusrite Scarlett 4x4 interface
Ample sound sadly uses another “ecosystem”, Uvi, not Kontakt. But their sound libraries are great. Their Acoustic bass is wonderful. The trumpet in Vanelli’s tune reminds me of Metheny’s old Roland synth guitar. Great fun when played well.
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
I guess everyone's criteria is different. I don't expect that I or other musicians would always be fooled by a synthetic instrument, but my goal would that be a fairly sophisticated non-musician listener wouldn't be distracted by something not sounding realistic.
I think most would agree with that. As long as it sounds GOOD it really doesn't matter how accurate or authentic it is. Most people aren't gonna be bothered by it unless it sounds bad.
BTW, if my memory serves me correctly I remember playing a few gigs with Gino back in the day. I'm pretty sure he did the Italian Festival circuit and my city had a pretty decent sized one. Played with Al Martino, Vic Damone, Steve Lawrence....back in the late 80's. Good times. Back when it was all live...and full big band's for the backup band.
Ample sound sadly uses another “ecosystem”, Uvi, not Kontakt. But their sound libraries are great. Their Acoustic bass is wonderful. The trumpet in Vanelli’s tune reminds me of Metheny’s old Roland synth guitar. Great fun when played well.
Ample sound doesn't use UVI. They are all VSTis that do not use any "ecosystem". I have all of their basses and I just checked their web site to see if that has changed and it hasn't. You must have meant some other company.
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Acoustic Samples uses UVI, so perhaps that's what you are thinking of. I've been using their Viby vibes (freebie) and thinking of getting the full Musser vibes package. The demos of their guitars are nowhere close to the Ample sounds packs IMHO, and they don't have a nylon guitar, which is a necessity for nice bossa nova/samba stuff. Ample Sound (same initials <g>), has some really nice tools for developing riffs and picking patterns, plus just playing the guitar from a keyboard feels and sounds great compared to other packages that I've tried out. They are a little pricey ($170 for nylon or steel guitar individually), so I'm waiting for a sale for some of them. They have a nice freebie of their Martin which is very usable and sounds great (but one release behind - 2.0 instead of 3.0 for purchased products).
I would add that I'm a jazz guy. I only thru in the new age and classical because I'm not entirely sure what I am trying to do musically with this. Probably jazz/instrumental pop of some sort. But NOT the R & B groove of smooth jazz. Likely mostly latin stuff.
Going back to saxgentleman67's initial querying, I would encourage you to use the StylePicker in BiaB to get a sampling of the latin-based styles and tracks available. I spent an hour yesterday doing just this, and found a lot of useful things. I initially bought the Pro version about a month ago, and within a few days upgraded to the Ultrapak. So, for example, when I put a filter string of "bossa" into the Stylepicker and ask for Realtracks only, I get 158 styles back. Not all are totally unique, but they do show the variety available. That should give you an idea of the results you can accomplish with Realtracks (or you can choose MIDI - just realize the sound source will make a big difference).
Chuck Wiggins
BIAB 2023 Win UltraPak, Cakewalk, Windows 10 Pro Custom AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core, Focusrite Scarlett 4x4 interface
As cwiggins says, there are some exciting Latin Styles, Real or Midi.
Though I am critical of the lack of modernity, Pgmusic’s recordings are top notch: Kenny Barron, Danny Gottlieb, Ron Carter. But, that’s just name dropping. The “unknown” heroes of Band in a Box, like Miles Black and all the other musicians, though not contemporary enough to my liking, these cats can play. And I’m sure they could do more contemporary, too.
Realstyles, as they are now, play like sitting in with the Stan Getz quartet in the eighties. Or, at least, the closest amateurs like me will ever get to sitting in with the Getz-band. My, my, what a band that was: Kenny Barron...
Just, for me, I enjoy more contemporary playing: Dave Holland, Jarrett, Joshua Redman, Garbarek, Hancock, Charles Lloyd. And Realstyles often lack certain chords, or more “today” rhythm.
And, of course, they lack hose wonderful MIDI VST libraries.
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
For my particular needs, the less flashy players like Miles Black and Oliver Gannon work better - I think their tracks are more plug-and-play than some others who take more liberties. I'm shooting to make recordings that sound as if I had some unsung hero studio musicians providing the foundations of tracks without drawing too much attention to themselves. I haven't investigated the details of how RealTracks are recorded, edited, and reassembled (and as a software engineer I'd love to know more), but I think some players have a better understanding (or coaching) as to how to play for these general purpose tracks.
Not to muddy the water for saxman, but I do know that my 15 year old Yamaha Motif ES workstation has some amazing sounds and a very versatile "arpeggiator on steroids" that does a great job at creating believable instrument tracks - especially in the guitar and keyboard world. That's at least 3 revisions back in the Motif product line, so can only imagine they have improved drastically. So it's fairly easy to assemble usable, professional quality tracks with these kinds of keyboards and without a computer/DAW involved. You do have to play or step enter the chords. So it's another way to approach things. I do like being able to type out a chord chart in Biab and see my whole arrangement like a spreadsheet. If I get time (it will be a while), I'll hook up my Motif and see how some of the MIDI styles sound. I haven't invested in Kontact or other expensive sample players, so won't make a rash judgment, but the onboard demos/sample projects I heard on the MOTIF years ago still have a better pro quality to my ears compared to online demos I hear from various software instrument vendors. I have to pull that keyboard out of the basement for a gig in a couple of months, so I'll revisit it a bit.
Last edited by cwiggins999; 05/16/2001:40 AM.
Chuck Wiggins
BIAB 2023 Win UltraPak, Cakewalk, Windows 10 Pro Custom AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core, Focusrite Scarlett 4x4 interface
@cwiggins, you like more studio musician style, I like more spicy stuff, but, hey, that’s just how the world works.
Talking Motif... There are, I am sure, some better Kontakt libraries, but the Motif is just a different beast altogether.
It’s proof that you not always need big Gbyte size sample pools. The programmers with Korg, Roland and especially Yamaha have worked wonders with limited sample memory. Their use of dynamic filters, oscillators and all things synthesizer is so intelligent and sophisticated that they reach levels of realism and playability that are rarely matched. On the other hand, the MOTIF already had a decent memory.
But Motif is still a very good choice and compares quite nicely to today’s keyboards and sample libraries. I played a MOTIF XS recently and it blew my mind.
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
Not to muddy the water for saxman, but I do know that my 15 year old Yamaha Motif ES workstation has some amazing sounds
I checked a demo of that out. The sounds still don't sound real to me. Maybe it's just over-processed to me. They also sound a bit dated.
It's funny because when you say studio musicians, that's how I would describe what I am looking for. I guess it depends which studio musicians and when:)
Just a plain electric bass, good drum sounds, and a nice piano/keyboard sound.
Sounds like the real tracks might be the best starting point.
If you have yet to check out RealTracks .. you may soon find why so many of us have left keyboard composing behind. It's a whole new world.
I have a keyboard on my desk that can create samples/patches, do step entry, record (and bounce) 4 audio tracks at 16/44 along with a MIDI sequence file .. and I don't use any of it anymore. It's simply a sound source and physical keyboard to play on these days. RTs and recorded performances beat it every time for what we do here. And to be honest (and this is the important part) it is easier on the PC.
Last edited by rharv; 05/18/2012:21 PM.
Make your sound your own! .. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
If you have yet to check out RealTracks .. you may soon find why so many of us have left keyboard composing behind. It's a whole new world.
I have a keyboard on my desk that can create samples/patches, do step entry, record (and bounce) 4 audio tracks at 16/44 along with a MIDI sequence file .. and I don't use any of it anymore. It's simply a sound source and physical keyboard to play on these days. RTs and recorded performances beat it every time for what we do here. And to be honest (and this is the important part) it is easier on the PC.
Yeah, that's why I did not replace my controller only keyboard when it went bad. It wasn't getting much use anyway. For what midi I do input a simple Yamaha YPT-400 or even the little iRig Keys 37 works fine. I'm going to edit it on the computer afterwords anyway.
User Video: Next-Level AI Music Editing with ACE Studio and Band-in-a-Box®
The Bob Doyle Media YouTube channel is known for demonstrating how you can creatively incorporate AI into your projects - from your song projects to avatar building to face swapping, and more!
His latest video, Next-Level AI Music Editing with ACE Studio and Band-in-a-Box, he explains in detail how you can use the Melodist feature in Band-in-a-Box with ACE Studio. Follow along as he goes from "nothing" to "something" with his Band-in-a-Box MIDI Melodist track, using ACE Studio to turn it into a vocal track (or tracks, you'll see) by adding lyrics for those notes that will trigger some amazing AI vocals!
Wir waren fleißig und haben über 50 neue Funktionen und eine erstaunliche Sammlung neuer Inhalte hinzugefügt, darunter 222 RealTracks, neue RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, "Songs with Vocals" Artist Performance Sets, abspielbare RealTracks Set 3, abspielbare RealDrums Set 2, zwei neue Sets von "RealDrums Stems", XPro Styles PAK 6, Xtra Styles PAK 17 und mehr!
Add updated printing options, enhanced tracks settings, smoother use of MGU and SGU (BB files) within PowerTracks, and more with the latest PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 update!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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) ,and don't really have a need for them anyway. And I am adding my own piano/electric piano and sometimes vibes/marimba parts, which are using MIDI sound sources. My cross section is admittedly narrow - and a place where I find the Realtracks jazz guitar and bass parts exactly what I needed to complete some projects on my own. I do think the acoustic guitar is especially difficult to make believable in the MIDI world. If I do find things I can't accomplish with the Realtracks, Ample Sound guitars are the place I'll turn. Their classical guitar modeling/sampling and tools are pretty amazing. 
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