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#597666 - 05/15/20 10:34 PM [Off-Topic] Online jamming
Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 2594
Loc: Sterling, Va
raymb1 Offline
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Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 2594
Loc: Sterling, Va
Anyone doing any online jamming with others? If so, what app(s) are you using. Thanks, Ray
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#597672 - 05/16/20 02:40 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Online jamming [Re: raymb1]
Registered: 05/12/12
Posts: 2612
Loc: South Africa
JoanneCooper Offline
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Registered: 05/12/12
Posts: 2612
Loc: South Africa
I would love to do this but am under the impression that latency is a constraint for live jam sessions.

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#597673 - 05/16/20 02:43 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Online jamming [Re: raymb1]
Registered: 05/12/12
Posts: 2612
Loc: South Africa
JoanneCooper Offline
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Registered: 05/12/12
Posts: 2612
Loc: South Africa
Quick google search turned this up https://jammr.net/howitworks.html
Anyone have experience on this?


Edited by JoanneCooper (05/16/20 02:43 AM)

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#597765 - 05/16/20 06:35 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Online jamming [Re: raymb1]
Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 7450
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
jazzmammal Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 7450
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
The latency problem depends on what style of music you're doing. If you're doing up tempo funky groove stuff where the drummer and bass player have to be tightly locked together, the guitar is doing sharp funky chords that will not work over the internet. But if you're doing slower fairly basic rhythm strumming guitar with a standard drum beat, then "maybe" it's ok but 40 ms latency is a lot of loose timing when it's 5 people in a live band.

If you've done any live playing of a softsynth in your computer you know that 10-15 ms latency is about all you can tolerate for anything other than a slow ballad. Slower, easier music maybe you can tolerate 25-30 ms but that's about it. I've read articles where they have done precise testing of latency over the internet and it starts at about 40ms and can go much higher. It has nothing to do with what software you or the host site is using, this is simple speed of light physics built into the internet itself and there is nothing that can be done about it. Yes, that can mean if your group is in the same city within say 20 miles of each other, everybody has good high speed internet it may work well. Or not.

The internet doesn't work how we think it logically should. Just because everybody is within 20 miles of each other that still doesn't mean the internet pipeline won't route some packets of information through a server in Europe or something. Why that happens is highly technical but basically the information gets routed to the first available connection regardless of where it's located and that's where the speed of light becomes a factor. Lightspeed is incredibly fast but it's not instant, it takes time to travel back and forth over 4,000 miles even if it's "only" milliseconds and then a few more ms to get processed in everybody's computers and software. Nobody notices that in regular internet usage but it's a big deal when you're practicing your instrument to a metronome.

Bob
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#597795 - 05/17/20 02:09 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Online jamming [Re: raymb1]
Registered: 05/12/12
Posts: 2612
Loc: South Africa
JoanneCooper Offline
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Registered: 05/12/12
Posts: 2612
Loc: South Africa
Thanks Bob. Have you tried it out anywhere?

I tried once on Skype.. Slow folk type stuff and only one other person. We both had quite good internet connections. It did not work....

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#597854 - 05/17/20 07:49 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Online jamming [Re: raymb1]
Registered: 12/26/11
Posts: 1865
F.M.M. Offline
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Registered: 12/26/11
Posts: 1865
hi ray I was in the process and started having issues with my 500 gig ssd drive so I have been working on the new 1tb ssd anyway have you tried obs software I will be getting back into it and share with you latency can be a problem there's a lot of programs out there cheers eric
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#597857 - 05/17/20 08:16 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Online jamming [Re: raymb1]
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 6697
Loc: Chicago
MusicStudent Offline
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Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 6697
Loc: Chicago
Been doing a lot of Teams viewing for business. Occasionally someone will share their screen and I will see myself on their monitor. It can be several seconds behind my real time. Kind of strange to move my head and then see it move a few seconds later on my monitor. crazy Just sayin...
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#597868 - 05/17/20 09:05 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Online jamming [Re: raymb1]
Registered: 03/18/04
Posts: 6573
Loc: USA
Danny C. Offline
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Registered: 03/18/04
Posts: 6573
Loc: USA
Not sure about jamming but I use OBS (wonderful product) for all my streaming and there is usually a 20 - 25 second delay and I am thinking it would be similar for other applications. But comes highly recommended for streaming your shows online from me.

Later,
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#597874 - 05/17/20 09:22 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Online jamming [Re: raymb1]
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 20162
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 20162
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
There have, understandably, been several similar threads about this recently. We all see these wonderful videos and wonder how to do that. Unfortunately, the one thing that hasn't changed (and Bob jazzmammal alluded to this) is physics. That, coupled with the way packets are designed to be sent over the Internet, makes real-time collaborative playing not workable.

I'm in the same boat. My wife has successfully experimented with the Acapella app with her choir for limited assembly of choir parts. In this downtime, I've been making videos of my scores to offer more for sale. It's one of those jobs I never found time to do.

I think the answer has to be to learn some video software, so we can assemble tracks that are recorded by others to a common track or click track.
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#597969 - 05/18/20 05:15 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Online jamming [Re: Matt Finley]
Registered: 02/04/17
Posts: 348
RayL Offline
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Registered: 02/04/17
Posts: 348
You can easily work with other musicians to sound almost live with some careful planning.
Here are a couple of examples. My Friend in Portland, OR and I played duos on a couple of tunes. The song files were set up so that we recorded in stages, with each guy adding to the previously recorded parts. I then mixed them and did the video production.

I Didn't Know About You
https://youtu.be/sAW01ku6Hcw

Two's Blues
https://youtu.be/typPH7-Y8gw

The online magazine Jazz Guitar Today did a quick article that details the steps:
https://jazzguitartoday.com/2020/04/creating-a-dual-coast-duet/
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#598009 - 05/18/20 12:43 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Online jamming [Re: raymb1]
Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 2594
Loc: Sterling, Va
raymb1 Offline
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Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 2594
Loc: Sterling, Va
"How can I jam without latency?
If you have ever tried to jam together over a voice or video call, you have experienced how internet latency makes it impossible to play in sync. You don't hear each other at the same time, nevermind staying in tempo. jammr solves this problem by matching the chord progression you are playing so it can keep everyone synchronized.

jammr is live but not real-time. You hear what others played last time around the chord progression, and they hear what you played last time. This way jammr works great even on high-latency internet connections!

If you're wondering how this works musically, imagine playing a note over the G chord that I'm playing. The note sounds good over a G chord regardless of whether it's the G chord that I'm playing right now or if it's the G chord I played last time around the chord progression. This is how jammr allows you to jam with people around the world without worrying about latency.

Most users perceive jammr as real-time because it feels natural!"

The above from the Jammr site. I'm anxious to try it out for rehearsals with a trio, pno, bs and drs. If anyone tries Jammr please post results in the forum.
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#598117 - 05/19/20 06:10 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Online jamming [Re: raymb1]
Registered: 02/15/17
Posts: 3139
Deryk - PG Music Offline
PG Music Staff

Registered: 02/15/17
Posts: 3139
I came across this research group at Stanford on the interwebs recently called SoundWIRE. They have a lot of interesting projects, and one of which, called Jacktrip, is a program that, once installed, allows you to "jam" with friends via the internet. This software is all open source and free, but I've never used it myself. Hear good things from other communities of musicians online I am a part of.

Just thought I'd mention it smile
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#598400 - 05/21/20 10:54 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Online jamming [Re: JoanneCooper]
Registered: 02/06/18
Posts: 6
Loc: Harwich Essex UK
John McAllister Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/06/18
Posts: 6
Loc: Harwich Essex UK
Jammr is a delayed loop of limited size.
It is not real-time.
You play behind what someone else has done and feels a bit weird to do.

Zoom is real-time but only one person can play at a time.

Jamkazam plaudits seem to be scripted and I have not yet known anybody who has used it.

You can, of course, play along to any track you select on utube but it is not the same buzz as live playing.

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#598401 - 05/21/20 10:55 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Online jamming [Re: Deryk - PG Music]
Registered: 02/06/18
Posts: 6
Loc: Harwich Essex UK
John McAllister Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/06/18
Posts: 6
Loc: Harwich Essex UK
Thanks for that.
I'll check it out.

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#598925 - 05/25/20 05:28 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Online jamming [Re: raymb1]
Registered: 02/19/06
Posts: 1079
Loc: NYC
Joe V Offline
Expert

Registered: 02/19/06
Posts: 1079
Loc: NYC
Hello JamKazammers –

Peter and Seth are working furiously on our new Internet latency reduction feature. Meanwhile, David has been pulling together the JamKazam Music Festival, which is now real and scheduled for Saturday May 30 starting at 5pm CDT.

This festival will feature 7 (or more) bands playing 30-minute sets, with band members playing from each of their homes in JamKazam sessions. Check out this preview video for a small taste of what’s coming: https://youtu.be/vRNRtgLFZuw.

Here is the link for the event, which will be a Facebook Live stream:
JamKazam is a company that focuses in online jams and reducing latency - here's their last email and a live stream.


https://www.facebook.com/events/298370014525149

We’d like to ask you to please help us by doing three quick things:

RSVP to the event to get a reminder to tune in and to build momentum for the festival.
Share the Facebook link through your social media accounts to help us get the word out.
Attend at least part of the festival to check it out.
Thank you again to everyone for helping with our GoFundMe fundraiser, and if your band is playing together successfully in JamKazam sessions and would like to broadcast a performance with paid tickets, please send us an email at concerts@jamkazam.com.

Be well, stay safe, and we hope you enjoy your connections on JamKazam!

Best Regards,
Team JamKazam

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