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#600989 - 06/07/20 12:00 PM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Does a contemporary jazz soloist template exist? [Re: Matt Finley]
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Matt Finley Offline
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Great info, thanks Pipeline.
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#601034 - 06/07/20 06:10 PM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Does a contemporary jazz soloist template exist? [Re: Pipeline]
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cwiggins999 Offline
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So my main question is whether there's a difference between how Biab processes tracks made via the Jazz template versus the Pop template?
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#601042 - 06/07/20 07:06 PM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Does a contemporary jazz soloist template exist? [Re: cwiggins999]
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Pipeline Offline
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Jazz would have a lot more chords that are jazz, if you are like Guitar George and know all the chords then the more the better, but if it's strictly rhythm and you don;t want to make it cry or sing you won't need as much playing as you would with solo to give more variety.
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#601112 - 06/08/20 07:38 AM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Does a contemporary jazz soloist template exist? [Re: Pipeline]
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cwiggins999 Offline
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So is the notion of a jazz UserTrack template versus a Pop UserTrack template obsolete? This thread started several years ago, and I'm just trying to pick out what's still relevant. Seems to me that the Pop templates have the most chord variety, so one would best use it, regardless of the style of music that ultimately is produced.
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#601186 - 06/08/20 02:22 PM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Does a contemporary jazz soloist template exist? [Re: cwiggins999]
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Pipeline Offline
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It may have a few of these in the Pop template:

https://www.pgmusic.com/tutorial_chordlist.htm


Here is a list of chords recognized by PG Music software:

Major Chords

C, Cmaj, C6, Cmaj7, Cmaj9, Cmaj13, C69, Cmaj7#5, C5b, Caug, C+, Cmaj9#11, Cmaj13#11

Minor Chords

Cm, Cm6, Cm7, Cm9, Cm11, Cm13, Cmaug, Cm#5, CmMaj7

Half diminished

Cm7b5

Diminished

Cdim

Dominant 7th Chords

C7, 7+, C9+, C13+, C13, C7b13, C7#11, C13#11, C7#11b13, C9, C9b13, C9#11, C13#11, C9#11b13, C7b9, C13b9, C7b9b13, C7b9#11, C13b9#11, C7b9#11b13, C7#9, C13#9, C7#9b13, C9#11, C13#9#11, C7#9#11b13

C7b5, C13b5, C7b5b13, C9b5, C9b5b13, C7b5b9, C13b5b9, C7b5b9b13, C7b5#9, C13b5#9, C7b5#9b13, C7#5, C13#5, C7#5#11, C13#5#11, C9#5, C9#5#11, C7#5b9, C13#5b9, C7#5b9#11, C13#5b9#11, C7#5#9, C13#5#9#11, C7#5#9#11, C13#5#9#11

Suspended 4 Chords

Csus, C7sus, C9sus, C13sus, C7susb13, C7sus#11, C13sus#11, C7sus#11b13, C9susb13, C9sus#11, C13sus#11, C9sus#11b13, C7susb9, C13susb9, C7susb9b13, C7susb9#11, C13susb9#11, C7susb9#11b13, C7sus#9, C13sus#9, C7sus#9b13, C9sus#11, C13sus#9#11, C7sus#9#11b13

C7susb5, C13susb5, C7susb5b13, C9susb5, C9susb5b13, C7susb5b9, C13susb5b9, C7susb5b9b13, C7susb5#9, C13susb5#9, C7susb5#9b13, C7sus#5, C13sus#5, C7sus#5#11, C13sus#5#11, C9sus#5, C9sus#5#11, C7sus#5b9, C13sus#5b9, C7sus#5b9#11, C13sus#5b9#11, C7sus#5#9, C13sus#5#9#11, C7sus#5#9#11, C13sus#5#9#11

Notes:

It is not necessary to type upper or lower case. For example type c6 to get the C6 chord. You should never have to use the Shift key, as Band-in-a-Box® and PowerTracks will sort this out for you.

Any chord may be entered with an alternate root ("Slash Chord") e.g.: C7/E = C7 with E bass.

Separate chords with commas to enter 2 chords in a 2 beat cell, e.g., Dm,G7.

Use the letter "b" for a flat; e.g., Bb7

Use # or 3 for a sharp; e.g., F#7. The pound sign (#) is the uppercase symbol of 3, so you can actually type f37 to get F#7. Band-in-a-Box® and PowerTracks will sort out the case, saving you the effort of using Shift+3 to type the # symbol.

Tricky Chords:

C5b This is "C flat 5." It is spelled this way to avoid confusion.

C2, C5, C4, C69, C7alt, Cm7#5

Shortcut Chords:

If you enter a lot of songs, you'll appreciate these shortcut keys.

J = Maj7
H = m7b5 (H stands for Half diminished)
D = dim
S = Sus

Example: To type CMaj7 , just type cj (it will be entered as CMaj7).
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#601266 - 06/08/20 09:07 PM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Does a contemporary jazz soloist template exist? [Re: Matt Finley]
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Matt Finley Offline
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Right, this is the (rather extensive) list of chords supported in BIAB.

But I don't think it would be much fun, or sound very good, to blow over a succession of these chords in some template I might make. It wouldn't be musically inspiring and would probably sound very disjointed. And yet, it's not likely anyone has written a song that uses all these possible chords. Then what happens when you write a song that uses a chord the soloist did not record in the homemade User Track?
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#601279 - 06/09/20 12:13 AM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Does a contemporary jazz soloist template exist? [Re: Matt Finley]
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Pipeline Offline
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It will just substitute with what chords you do have.
If you use the Pop template and add more chords and keys that you would use as they just have Keys A C E G.
If you play 1 bar phrases on the lest common chords maybe so there's no held notes into another chord ?
The common progression you can play over and link them in the usertrack bar settings.
Or how I suggested in keys (with Drum in the filename) then if the Bar to Bar regen and change UserTrack F5 are added you can put it together how you like.
This was a Flute in a RealDrum but you can do the same with a UserTrack
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=521931
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#601328 - 06/09/20 05:38 AM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Does a contemporary jazz soloist template exist? [Re: Matt Finley]
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cwiggins999 Offline
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I've been reading through various threads on UserTracks, having not taken the plunge yet. (I'm still finding all kinds of gems in existing RealTracks, since I'm just a couple of months into BiaB.) But it still sounds like UserTracks have a long way to go to be close to the functionality and flexibility of Biab-created RealTracks. And I'm not really finding much in either free or to-purchase UserTracks, unless I'm missing a source. I may give a try to Pipeline's Flute "realdrum" that he mentioned.
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#601364 - 06/09/20 09:53 AM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Does a contemporary jazz soloist template exist? [Re: Matt Finley]
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Jim Fogle Offline
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A UserTracks depository is +++ HERE +++

A UserTracks template does not have to be created by PG Music. Anyone user can create a UserTrack template. A template is a guidebook for creation, not a playback tool. All that is needed is the time to create the SGU file chord sheets.

The questions or discussions I haven't seen asked in this thread are, "What is a contemporary jazz soloist template"? What guidance should a contemporary jazz soloist template provide? Would the content in a contemporary jazz soloist template vary by instrument, tempo, time signature or feel? How does the skill level of the recording musician affect template content? If the SGU files existed who would have the desire, skill and time to record the audio?

As Matt mentioned, one user, Seeker or Frank, created many UserTracks. Seeker automated much of his audio generation process using high quality sounding virtual instruments for his instrument recordings. Once he developed his process he recorded and released more than five hundred UserTracks over a two year time span. A user could pretty well post a request for an exotic oriental flute UserTrack and Seeker would post a link for one a day or two later.

In my opinion the larger issue is it is difficult to create great, but generic, riffs on demand. Matt even mentioned that certain chord progressions would not be much fun to play. I'm sure he's right! That's why "A" list session musicians get paid the bucks.

Here again it's my opinion but I believe when most people want a UserTracks they are thinking of how they would use a specific instrument to play a specific part in a song. What they are not thinking of is a bunch of audio that can be used over a song collection.

One item many users overlook is Band-in-a-Box's RealTracks auto substitution feature. Band-in-a-Box will automatically substitute one RealTrack for another if the second RealTrack matches tempo better than the initial selection. For a user to make a UserTracks that matches RealTracks performance a user will need to make about 50 UserTracks to accommodate the Band-in-a-Box tempo range of about 50 to 600 beats per minute (bpm).

Going back to what I said in an earlier post, if I wanted a contemporary jazz soloist UserTracks template I would run the audio files for the existing RealTracks soloists through the Audio Chord Wizard (ACW). The soloist track names would provide me with tempo, time signature and feel information while the ACW would fill in the chord sheets. Boom! Little work template created.
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#601370 - 06/09/20 11:01 AM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Does a contemporary jazz soloist template exist? [Re: Matt Finley]
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cwiggins999 Offline
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Thanks, Jim - it's starting to sink in that there's nothing magic about the template types from PG Music :-) It's pretty cool that they made use of sgu files and other familiar tools, and I've read thru several of the UserTrack guides/posts to understand how chord transitions etc. "may" work to provide more natural transitions between chords if that material is present. So perhaps soon I'll take the plunge, but it still sounds like results is mixed at best in comparison to the PG-sanctioned RealTracks.

Thanks for the repository link. Do you know of any links to Seeker's user tracks?

Also a comment on this:
Originally Posted By: Jim Fogle
A UserTracks depository is +++ HERE +++

In my opinion the larger issue is it is difficult to create great, but generic, riffs on demand. Matt even mentioned that certain chord progressions would not be much fun to play. I'm sure he's right! That's why "A" list session musicians get paid the bucks.

Here again it's my opinion but I believe when most people want a UserTracks they are thinking of how they would use a specific instrument to play a specific part in a song. What they are not thinking of is a bunch of audio that can be used over a song collection.


The appeal of Biab for me is the wide variety of generic rhythm/background RealTracks. Due to the genres I work in, Oliver Gannon's guitar tracks are very useful as a foundation (along with bass and drums) so that I can add my own keys, vocals, and other incidental parts. The jury is still out for me as far as whether I'll use solo RealTracks very much - on one hand I'm surprised at how good some of them work. But I would never expect they would be exactly complimentary with a vocal or other melody part the way a real player could interact with those elements - quoting, counterpoint, etc. I'm not very impressed with the horn ensemble RealTracks - they are pretty bland. (Some of the string ensembles are working pretty well - and the "Medley" feature is nice for getting simultaneous playback without the choppiness of chord changes.) So I can't quite picture how specific part UserTracks would work - versus an artist track or a specifically conceived part played by a real player. (Perhaps commissioned on Fiver <g>)


Edited by cwiggins999 (06/09/20 11:30 AM)
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#601409 - 06/09/20 05:46 PM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Does a contemporary jazz soloist template exist? [Re: Matt Finley]
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Jim Fogle Offline
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cwiggins999,

I believe the link I provided include whatever UserTracks created by Seeker that are still publicly available.
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#601416 - 06/09/20 06:51 PM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Does a contemporary jazz soloist template exist? [Re: cwiggins999]
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Pipeline Offline
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#605198 - 07/04/20 07:16 PM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Does a contemporary jazz soloist template exist? [Re: Matt Finley]
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jazzmammal Offline
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This was a very interesting discussion four years ago and I'm glad it got revived. A lot of things could have changed under the hood since then so I'm curious if my thoughts and guesses then are still valid now.

First, since the RT's are a main part of PGM's "Secret Sauce", I don't think they're going to release all the goodies that go into producing a Real Track, these user templates are dumbed down versions.

Second, that list of chords that Biab recognizes is for midi, not necessarily the RT's. We all know RT's are recorded by a real person playing that instrument in a studio. If s/he didn't play a proper 6/9 chord then that chord gets ignored if you're using that RT. Or maybe it gets subbed with a standard major 6th or 9th.

Third, the file sizes. This is part of the secret sauce I think. To me it's logical to assume there is a max file size for an RT because if there wasn't and somebody produces a massive piano RT that has all of those chords in the list played in all four keys so they can be properly transposed, the generation times would be huge, like measured in minutes not seconds.

And even if that massive RT was produced, what I described is only one chord inversion in one position on the piano and it's the same for guitar. You should have at least two different inversions but three or four are really needed to cover jazz properly so multiply that list of chords by one of those factors.

For any noobies, understand this is no problem with midi. We have printed out and discussed midi piano tracks generated by Biab and they are really good. Lots of different chord positions, left hand voicings etc and all based on the style. Not so with the Real Tracks and I'm pretty sure it's because of file size limitations.

Fourth, I don't think it would do any good to take an RT soloist and run it through the ACW because soloists are plying single notes and the ACW doesn't work well with single note lines, it needs the bass and a chording instrument.

Just some thoughts.

Bob
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#605327 - 07/06/20 05:38 AM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Does a contemporary jazz soloist template exist? [Re: jazzmammal]
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Charlie Fogle Online   content
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Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
This was a very interesting discussion four years ago and I'm glad it got revived. A lot of things could have changed under the hood since then so I'm curious if my thoughts and guesses then are still valid now.

First, since the RT's are a main part of PGM's "Secret Sauce", I don't think they're going to release all the goodies that go into producing a Real Track, these user templates are dumbed down versions.

Second, that list of chords that Biab recognizes is for midi, not necessarily the RT's. We all know RT's are recorded by a real person playing that instrument in a studio. If s/he didn't play a proper 6/9 chord then that chord gets ignored if you're using that RT. Or maybe it gets subbed with a standard major 6th or 9th.

Third, the file sizes. This is part of the secret sauce I think. To me it's logical to assume there is a max file size for an RT because if there wasn't and somebody produces a massive piano RT that has all of those chords in the list played in all four keys so they can be properly transposed, the generation times would be huge, like measured in minutes not seconds.

And even if that massive RT was produced, what I described is only one chord inversion in one position on the piano and it's the same for guitar. You should have at least two different inversions but three or four are really needed to cover jazz properly so multiply that list of chords by one of those factors.

For any noobies, understand this is no problem with midi. We have printed out and discussed midi piano tracks generated by Biab and they are really good. Lots of different chord positions, left hand voicings etc and all based on the style. Not so with the Real Tracks and I'm pretty sure it's because of file size limitations.

Fourth, I don't think it would do any good to take an RT soloist and run it through the ACW because soloists are plying single notes and the ACW doesn't work well with single note lines, it needs the bass and a chording instrument.

Just some thoughts.

Bob


My thoughts:

FIRST: I think they've given all the goodies just not in one complete explanation with full step by step instructions. They left out how their algorithm accesses all the audio data and many users don't consider the UserTrack Development list when they create their personal UserTrack and create SGUs that are specific audio for those song circumstances. Not addressing as many different possible transition points as possible, these UserTracks are sub par creations.

My point here is the templates are complete but for a quality User RealTrack, multiple SGU templates must be used with each addressing a specific and more complex piece of audio the algorithm is programmed to locate and use. For instance; Start by creating a base chords SGU template or use one of the BIAB provided Templates. Continue your UserTrack with an intros SGU template, Create an endings SGU template, Create a common chords transition SGU template and also create an uncommon chords transitions SGU template. I think the User Development Page located in the Bar Settings Page infers the need for additional SGUs for UserTracks that allows the BIAB algorithms to recognize pointers to select and program specific audio for the Chord Chart. The Simple Pop Template will provide one intro and one ending and a set of Chords but we know that we can add additional SGU templates to add more intros and endings and more chords for our User Track to choose from. From reading the Forum intro, user manual and help files, I've come across additional clues to what I'll call 'algorithm pointers' that add to the complexity of recorded audio, be it PG Music RealTrack or a UserTrack.

One example I think is in multiple places there's reference by PG Music staff to RealTracks having 'smooth transitions'. Solo intros, endings and chord changes are all specific areas in a song Chord Chart that sometimes force users to regenerate a track in order to randomly get a correct intro, solo ending or different chord inversion. I think this is because the BIAB search algorithm found and selected a less than ideal or even incorrect piece of audio. I know that the BIAB algorithm 'reads ahead' our song Chord Chart and selects audio clips to create a performance the same as if a 'live' session player was performing our song. It selects audio in our key and at our chosen tempo and apparently there are pointers in the algorithm to recorded 'smooth transitions' for RealTracks. I wondered why doesn't the BIAB algorithm 'read ahead' and 'see' OUR programmed Chord Chart transitions by Soloists and chord transitions?

In various literature, PG Music claims soloists and players provide 'smooth transitions' and their demos always have 'smooth transitions'. BIAB does this regardless how many times we change key, tempo or chord progressions. With a bit of study and experimentation, I learned how to access this BIAB 'reads ahead' feature and always get a programmed 'smooth transition' just like a PG Music demo. I don't know if my speculation is correct or not but I can say with absolute certainty, I get a smooth solo intro, solo ending and can correct bad chord changes flawlessly every time. I have not personally had a single issue since learning the method.

This theory applies equally to BIAB algorithm reading ahead any artist's personally created UserTrack.

SECOND AND THIRD: I combine these two points as I believe they're related. I don't think it's necessarily the size of the file although that is relevant to keeping the overall program to a manageable size. I believe the limitation is content related to having sufficient audio choices for these 'algorithm pointers' to select from and to include as many of the chords recognizable by BIAB as possible. A clue to me is that RealBand Multi Riffs are limited to seven each generation even though these seven can be compiled and generated repeatedly. When Multi Riffs were introduced to BIAB, the number of each generation of Multi Riffs was also seven. Since a RealTrack is always (regardless of file size) a finite amount of recorded audio, seven seems to be the maximum safe number of regenerations of audio selections possible without producing duplicate audio clips.

FOURTH: I agree.
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#605341 - 07/06/20 07:46 AM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Does a contemporary jazz soloist template exist? [Re: Charlie Fogle]
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cwiggins999 Offline
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A very helpful addition to the thread. I'm having to type onehanded for a while so won't expand/expound much now. BiaB is a musical livesaver since I can't play keyboards for a while.

Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle

With a bit of study and experimentation, I learned how to access this BIAB 'reads ahead' feature and always get a programmed 'smooth transition' just like a PG Music demo. I don't know if my speculation is correct or not but I can say with absolute certainty, I get a smooth solo intro, solo ending and can correct bad chord changes flawlessly every time. I have not personally had a single issue since learning the method.



Is this method something you can share?
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#605463 - 07/07/20 04:22 AM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Does a contemporary jazz soloist template exist? [Re: cwiggins999]
Registered: 04/07/13
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Charlie Fogle Online   content
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Originally Posted By: cwiggins999
A very helpful addition to the thread. I'm having to type onehanded for a while so won't expand/expound much now. BiaB is a musical lifesaver since I can't play keyboards for a while.

Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle

With a bit of study and experimentation, I learned how to access this BIAB 'reads ahead' feature and always get a programmed 'smooth transition' just like a PG Music demo. I don't know if my speculation is correct or not but I can say with absolute certainty, I get a smooth solo intro, solo ending and can correct bad chord changes flawlessly every time. I have not personally had a single issue since learning the method.



Is this method something you can share?


Sure. This procedure also applies to personal created UserTracks and expands on my thoughts above.

Here is the method.

BIAB/RB recognizes Silence as an instrument. Rather than choose Mute in the Bar Settings Window, select to replace the instrument with the instrument Silence (RT# 1152) from the RealTracks menu. At the Bar you wish the silence to end and the original RealTrack to return, replace the Silence instrument with the original RealTrack instrument or another RealTrack instrument.

This works because when using F5 to Mute the instrument, there has been no change programmed for the BIAB algorithm to 'see' therefore, no transition audio clip is searched for or chosen for the Bar where a solo, instrument change or other transition is desired by the artist. The Mute command occurs after BIAB has already 'read ahead','saw' the instrument change and selected an appropriate transition audio clip to play over the Chord Chart.

To hear a demo how this works, load a style demo and add RealTrack Medley #1319 which is a track that plays 4 bars of a RealTrack trombone, 4 Bars of Silence, 4 bars of trumpet, 4 bars of silence, 4 bars of sax, 4 bars of silence and 4 bars of guitar

The BIAB algorithm 'reads ahead' the Chord Chart and 'sees' the change of instruments and selects audio clips appropriate for the transitions. BIAB does create smooth transitions between any instrument changes so this method also works amazingly well for two instruments to alternate between each other. One will end appropriately as the other begins appropriately. BIAB will sometimes program both instruments to play simultaneously for the Transition Bar even though the two instruments occupy the same track.

Change Medley RT# 1319 to Medley RT# 1320 to hear the 4 instruments transition every 4 bars with no bars of silence.


Edited by Charlie Fogle (07/07/20 04:57 AM)
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#605634 - 07/08/20 01:10 PM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Does a contemporary jazz soloist template exist? [Re: Matt Finley]
Registered: 04/14/20
Posts: 181
cwiggins999 Offline
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Registered: 04/14/20
Posts: 181
Thanks, Charlie. That makes a lot of sense, so I will give it a try on a few songs that could use better control. I'm still only a few months into BiaB, but had found a few settings in the Select Soloist dialog that also seem to influence phrasing of RealTracks - Fill% and trade 8's, I believe. I was hoping "Around Melody" would work, as that's the scenario where I often want to bring in horn parts - to embelish around a vocal or melody part. So I tried a ouple of options of putting a simple MIDI melody in, but it didn't affect the RealTrack soloist.
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#605683 - 07/09/20 04:29 AM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Does a contemporary jazz soloist template exist? [Re: cwiggins999]
Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 6239
Loc: South Carolina
Charlie Fogle Online   content
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Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 6239
Loc: South Carolina
Here is a link to another thread that you may find beneficial where Andrew from PG Music demonstrates a tutorial using the silence feature and also explains it being a better option regarding it does a natural, smooth solo ending rather than the abrupt cut off endings sometimes produced with using the F5 Mute.

https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=605625#Post605625
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