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#598961 - 05/25/20 07:57 AM [Off-Topic] Praise and Worship musicians, which of these two books are better?
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Notes Norton Offline
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Hi y'all.

I don't play much in church so I have little experience. A couple of weddings with requested songs is the bulk of it.

A relative of mine who is Jewish has been getting work playing in Christian churches for a few years and a couple of the pastors have asked him if he could get a small group together.

He's thinking about buying fake books and getting a few musicians together for gigging once the COVID thing is over.

He asked me which of these two books should he get. One has more songs but being unfamiliar with the titles he doesn't know which one is better. Neither do I.

So I ask your help.

The Praise And Worship Fake Book

or

The Real Worship Book

If you have any reasons why you prefer one or the other, please include them. I'll pass the comments on to him.

Thank you very much.
Bob
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#599044 - 05/25/20 07:48 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Praise and Worship musicians, which of these two books are better? [Re: Notes Norton]
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rockstar_not Offline
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Bob, I'm sorry to say, but this question is as general as 'what songs should we play in a bar?'

There are SO MANY STYLES, that you really can't be prepared ahead of time unless you visit the churches you are trying to get gigs at.

You have everything from full on funky gospel (a Facebook friend, Spiffy Newman on Keys : https://www.youtube.com/user/mtspiffy/videos)

to traditional southern gospel ( https://www.singingnews.com/top-80-southern-gospel-music-charts/ )

To traditional hymms

To modern rock P&W (Bethel Music: https://www.youtube.com/user/ibethelmusic/videos , Hillsongs United: https://www.youtube.com/user/hillsongunitedTV/videos Elevation Church: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrAdbH28gIg )

To R&B gospel ( Tye Tribbett: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0TaADfUxPw )

So, there's no way to answer your question, really. You need to visit some local churches that are hiring and see/hear what they are doing.

Our church is mostly in the modern rock vein - where the music is mostly anthemic - guitar driven, almost no horns - I play guitars, bass, or keyboards, on demand, with 5 new songs every week. There's really no fake book.

There's a scriptural reason for this - in the Bible we are called to sing a new song - and the turnover of songs is very rapid. As soon as you get one pretty much down, there's a fresh crop of things to learn.

The good news - you will almost assuredly be provided with a chord chart and pointed to a youtube video to get an idea what is being expected. The tough thing is that lots of those modern rock songs, have a good 3-4, 5 electric guitars, and at least one acoustic guitar part, and often a pre-programmed pad going on. The challenge is sorting out how to make the most of 1 electric guitar.

Visit worshipartistry.com, and the folks there do a great job showing how to pull off a usable small-scale version of a highly produced sound. They have some free intro videos.

A couple of really hot songs in that vein today (2 months from now it will be different):

Waymaker - here are a couple different flavors of that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHoGEDQQ67o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2m4TgAOBKw

Tremble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzZZb6RbLJs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ6B0gTiflk


The words are what are important - you can hear how those words, chords and melody are rendered in completely different ways.

You'll also find that unless it's a very unexpressive church, trying to play these songs in a church environment, as just a hired hand - is sort of a non-started.

Many churches follow this model of postures:

1. The audience is God - not the people sitting in the pews
2. The performers are the people in the pews - they are offering a sacrifice of praise and worship to God
3. The band/leader are there merely to prompt the performers, the people in the pews.

so it's not a typical gig.


Edited by rockstar_not (05/25/20 07:51 PM)

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#599090 - 05/26/20 05:47 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Praise and Worship musicians, which of these two books are better? [Re: Notes Norton]
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Notes Norton Offline
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Thanks for the response.

Too bad it's not that easy laugh

Notes
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#599357 - 05/27/20 02:12 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Praise and Worship musicians, which of these two books are better? [Re: Notes Norton]
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Notes Norton Offline
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Follow up: He bought them both.
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#599537 - 05/28/20 12:56 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Praise and Worship musicians, which of these two books are better? [Re: Notes Norton]
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etcjoe Offline
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That is my go to: when in doubt buy it all. Ha!

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#599607 - 05/28/20 11:04 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Praise and Worship musicians, which of these two books are better? [Re: Notes Norton]
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Tobias Offline
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From the Praise and Worship Fake Book. I don't have the book so I can't tell you how well it is charted but, the songs listed in the Amazon ad are a great bunch of songs and I have done all but one or two of them many, many times over the past, oh, say, ten years up until recently. Some of them are relatively new within the last few years. Some of them go back 10 - 15 years or so. All great songs that mature congregants will know and younger congregants will enjoy learning. This is also a good variety to be able to make song sets of 4 - 6 songs for a service. It's got upbeat praise songs, moderate tempo worship songs and some intimate ones too. There's even some there that can be used for alter calls or closing a service or matching songs to the teaching topic of the day. Bummer is; it looks like it's all arranged in the key of C. I hope he's better at transposing on the fly than I am.
(Fake Book). A wonderful resource for Christian musicians! This second edition includes over 400 songs arranged in melody/lyrics/chords for all C instruments. Songs include: Amazing Grace (My Chains Are Gone) * Because He Lives, Amen * Blessed Be Your Name * Cornerstone * Days of Elijah * Everlasting God * Forever Reign * Give Thanks * Good Good Father * Great Are You Lord * The Heart of Worship (When the Music Fades) * Here I Am to Worship (Light of the World) * Holy Is the Lord * Holy Spirit * How Deep the Father's Love for Us * How Great Is Our God * I Give You My Heart * In Christ Alone * Jesus Messiah * Lord, I Lift Your Name on High * Mighty to Save * No Longer Slaves * Oceans (Where Feet May Fail) * One Thing Remains (Your Love Never Fails) * Open the Eyes of My Heart * Open up the Heavens * Our God * Revelation Song * Shine, Jesus, Shine * Shout to the Lord * Step by Step * 10,000 Reasons (Bless the Lord) * This I Believe (The Creed) * This Is Amazing Grace * Thy Word * We Believe * You Are My All in All * You Are My King (Amazing Love) * Your Grace Is Enough * Your Name * and more.

The Real Worship Book, and I don't have this one either, looks like it has some of the same songs as The Praise and Worship Song Book but it has 200 songs and they look like they were well chosen also.

www.ccli.com
If the church is asking him to do this perhaps he could request they pay for a prescription to CCLI.com That is going to have "just about" every worship song they will ever need or want. And, you get legal permission, with restrictions, to use, perform and print the songs. It also has top recent song charts so they will know what most of the churches are currently doing.

www.planningcenter.com
Planning Center is another great resource. We use this mostly to schedule performers who grab a time slot or decline, share song charts, examples of songs, communicate about upcoming worship team events, etc,... They may not need this if they are a small church with only a few musicians but it's worth checking it out.

Also, from experience; If I were being asked or offered to get some folks together to start a church band, well, I already have a list of requirements I know I need in return, a set of basic boundaries from dress code to what time to show up for rehearsal and before church begins, what to expect and not to expect from me as their leader, and, not the least, how often and how long my commitment is. 3 months, 12 months, until end of year, etc,... Having these things agreed upon up front will certainly prevent issues in the future. I also would write or co-write a mission statement that coincides with the pastors vision. This will help keep the band on the same page and being able to recognize that we are on track. It also gives me a way to keep musicians in check and even ask them to resign (boot) when needed.
Often I see people thinking it doesn't need to be this complicated and at first it goes pretty smoothly. Give it a few months for the tantrums to start and they'll wish they started out more organized. Trust me on this. They are going to be dealing with these creatures called humans. Humans are creepy, freaky, spoiled, emotional, misunderstood weirdos. Try to stop the mess before it happens. And, be prepared for when it happens.
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#599653 - 05/29/20 05:39 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Praise and Worship musicians, which of these two books are better? [Re: Notes Norton]
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Notes Norton Offline
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Thanks a lot.

My brother-in-law has done Jewish Religious music for a long time so he knows how to dress and conduct himself. Every year he does Christmas and Easter gigs at church so the parishioners can participate in the services.

He also does 'club dates' where a band leader gets a gig and then calls musicians to do the gig. He has absolute pitch (perfect pitch) and years of experience. He is married to a Christian and brings and they bring their children up to respect both faiths. I know he'll do a good job.

This is a tangent to the thread...

Last year I took a vacation in Vienna, Austria. One Sunday I went to a huge, Gothic church for high mass. They had a pipe organ, full classical orchestra and full choir. It was among the best church music services I've ever heard.

Notes
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#600018 - 05/31/20 04:54 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Praise and Worship musicians, which of these two books are better? [Re: Notes Norton]
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Tobias Offline
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Very cool. There is one church that I know of here in the Coachella Valley that has an awesome pipe organ. They gave me a private tour through the whole thing and showed me how they clean and maintain it and keep it tuned rolling the curls on the pipe ends. It's huge and sounds amazing. It's remarkable how they get all the different pipes/notes to be reasonably similar in volume.
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#600080 - 06/01/20 06:41 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Praise and Worship musicians, which of these two books are better? [Re: Notes Norton]
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Notes Norton Offline
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I love pipe organs in those big churches. The power of the sounds coupled with the echo and reverb of the huge, stone chamber makes a very unique sound.

Pipe organ patches on synths don't sound the same without that acoustic space.

IMO the church is as much a part of the instrument as the amp is to the electric guitar.

Notes
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#600980 - 06/07/20 09:37 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Praise and Worship musicians, which of these two books are better? [Re: Notes Norton]
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edshaw Offline
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You'll find that Hal Leonard fake books "For C instruments" are
not necessarily written in the key of CMaj. One reason you don't
see that very often is that Hal Leonard made a killing selling
CMajor fake books. They would transcribe the melody to Cmaj, change
a few notes, and stamp a copyright signature and date. Needless
to say, this practice raised some eyebrows. Hal Leonard has
had books for C instruments for a while, now.
Don't mean to be critical. The books could be perfect for you.
It sounds like your audience wants to hear mainstream praise and
worship, like Hillsong or Chris Tomlin. I tried to look up CCLI
license, which appears to be permission to perform but not record
or copy. If that's what the CCLI in fact, allows, it could be a
good thing, or it could create limitations down the road, which
happens to be as they would have it. (Security prevented me from
entering the site.) Keeping in mind, the bigger they get, the more
controled by producers and publishers they become. You may question what the status for video is. I'm sure Hal Leonard would be happy to tell you. Another good reference, www.godtube.com
If you build a set from these two books and have the rights to perform, this could be wonderful. But don't think it has to end there. Seasoned church musicians joking refer to worship anthems as "five/twelve songs." Meaning the same five words repeated twelve times. Now this may sound like a joke, even a bitter joke, but the germ of truth is that your band could probably create an all original set with surprising results and not so much work, if you put your minds to it. Better yet, enlist a music "director," who would do little more than produce originals for you, music based on the hits, bypassing the industry pros.Then, you have room to run.
My final question, if you did such a thing, what BB backing style would work best?



Edited by edshaw (06/07/20 09:40 AM)
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#601106 - 06/08/20 07:17 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Praise and Worship musicians, which of these two books are better? [Re: Notes Norton]
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Notes Norton Offline
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I am familiar with fake books, and I know the C books are for concert C instruments like piano and guitar, Bb for instruments like tenor sax and clarinet, Eb books for alto sax, and so on - not the key of the music.

As a lifelong Bb tenor sax player, I can read a C book and transpose it in my head up a full step and adjust the key signature as long as the melody isn't very complicated.

My brother-in-law is a seasoned musician, a good sight reader and I'm sure he just wants a good start in what he is requested to do and will learn more as he goes.

I've never been interested in that end of the business myself. This has nothing to do with my personal religious philosophies, it's more that I like playing for a dancing, cheering audience. Sitting around during the services and waiting for my chance to play just isn't as rewarding to my spirit. We often play 3 or 4 hours non-stop, without even taking a break. I like that.

I do appreciate your comments, and will pass them on to him to help him make better choices on how to start.

He is not planing to use Band-in-a-Box but to hire some of the 'club date' musicians he is used to playing with. They can pull off some very good arrangements on the fly by knowing what song, what key, and if necessary use a fake book. That's another end of the business I've never ventured into.

------

Many years ago I played in a band here in South Florida. The organist in our band had a Sunday gig playing at a cathedral in Palm Beach, the same one the Kennedy's went to.

I'd go to mass with him and sit in the organ/choir loft.

He wasn't allowed to play any music that wasn't written by a Roman Catholic composer. He had a book of approved songs, many of which didn't have chord symbols, and he "faked" the chords as he played them. If they weren't the right chords, nobody noticed, certainly not I, as they seemed to fit the melodies perfectly. I think that is a rare talent. But I loved when he played on the big 64' pipes that rattled my chest.

After the masses were all done and the church was empty one Sunday he played some rock music on that big pipe organ. Of course the sounds were inappropriate, but the power was awesome.

Notes


Edited by Notes Norton (06/08/20 07:20 AM)
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#601788 - 06/12/20 11:30 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Praise and Worship musicians, which of these two books are better? [Re: Notes Norton]
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edshaw Offline
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While it would make very interesting reading if your church-playing relative were to document this current musical journey as it unfolds, especially the challenges overcome, the who, what, and why. Alas, that is a book unlikely to ever be written on account of the confidentiality and secrecy inherent in just about all church organizations. I can think of a few who are quite open,
and they catch flak. One reason I post this thought is that church music has gone off in so many directions it is impossible to keep up with, even given the benefit of the dramatic increase in taped material -- services, lessons, sermons, etc. For example, Praise and Worship music. What is it, really? How is it felt by some to be better or by some to be not as good? That's one question.


Edited by edshaw (06/12/20 11:31 AM)
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#601889 - 06/13/20 06:55 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Praise and Worship musicians, which of these two books are better? [Re: Notes Norton]
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Notes Norton Offline
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I'll suggest that to my B-in-law. It sounds like a good idea to me. It could be helpful for others following the same path.

Notes
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