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Here's what he meant when he told me that. I visited him once for a week in Nashville and he introduced me to several songwriters that were living off their 'one' hit song in their career.


Is-it-really-possible-to-retire-off-royalties-from-one-hit-song

Last edited by Charlie Fogle; 05/28/20 12:39 PM.

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Misleading article IMO. Most of the long-term money making songs they reference are very old. Songs from previous eras had radio longevity and replay value (classic rock, oldies, etc.).

In the current market, there is a huge income spike for about 1 - 1/2 years, then it drops way down. The reason? Songs aren't being played as recurrents the way older songs were. You're more likely to hear a hit from the 80s, 90s, or even early 2000's on the radio than a song that was a hit just a couple of years ago.

I don't know of any writers who retired off of one hit - you need an abundance of cuts, and maybe a handful of hits, to retire comfortably....unless you took every penny you made and invested it immediately in something with a pretty substantial return.

One of my best friends & co-writers is a Hall Of Fame songwriter, with double-digit hits to his credit. He has mentioned to me on many occasions that his royalties are drying up and it's concerning for him as he nears retirement that they won't generate enough for him to live on. Again, that's multiple hit songs.

So unless you wrote a massive, massive hit - and wrote it by yourself - no, I absolutely do not believe you can retire off the royalties from one hit song.

*edit* I would further point out that song royalties are subject to self employment tax. Since most of the money comes in during approximately one calendar year, the tax rate can be as high as 45-49%. Uncle Sam takes a big chunk out of those royalties.

Last edited by Roger Brown; 05/28/20 05:05 AM.
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So I think it is technically possible..... IF...

1. It was in fact a big enough hit to earn high 6 figures minimum.
2. You didn't touch it after you paid taxes on it. No yachts, jets, or islands.
3. You invested it into a solid 10% gain portfolio.
4. You were a young person and could afford to let it set for a few decades.
5. You had another source of income for the ensuing years so you didn't need to pull it out.

I knew a guy who once said if he had $10k he would never have to work a day in his life. I think he was planning on some illegal investments and activities, but I don't think he ever followed through on that. Setting in a prison for 20 years isn't a great life investment plan if you know what I mean.


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<<< In the current market, there is a huge income spike for about 1 - 1/2 years, then it drops way down. >>>

What's a realistic amount of gross income to the songwriter for a massive hit for 1 1/2 year from all the different channels that generate the income? Mechanical royalties, streaming, etc.


Last edited by Charlie Fogle; 05/29/20 02:49 AM. Reason: Correct the Title

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Not nearly as much as you might think. It's hard to quantify because there are so many variables...and in certain formats, maybe it's possible to retire off of one hit. The problem is, in the genres that pay more, you rarely if ever see a solo written song....some current hits have double digit writers. I saw one rap song that had 39 writers listed.

In the country format, you could possible gross $1 million....but that has been dropping substantially over the past few years and I think it's probably closer to $600-750k. The tax bracket that amount would throw you into means you'd net around half of that. Keep in mind also that the numbers I'm giving you are the total gross of the song....both the writing & publishing share. And the business reality is, the possibility of a solo written, writer published song (where you keep 100% of the ownership) is mathematically impossible. You would wind up having to give up, at a minimum, part or all of the publishing, or allow one or more writers to "tweak" your song and get an equal share. The net clearly drops proportionally.

In the past, the performance income of a hit was enhanced by mechanical royalties. A Garth Brooks hit in his heyday could net you a fortune - not only did he get tons of airplay, he had albums selling 8, 9, 10 million or more units. Well, mechanicals are dead in the water - nobody much buys physical product anymore, nor do they buy mp3s. It's almost all streaming - and of all the rapings songwriters have gotten over the years, the royalty structure for streaming is one of the most egregious.

My friend that I mentioned who is the songwriter HOF called me this morning, and we were discussing this. I asked him if he thought someone could retire off of one hit, and he laughed...hard.

One of the things that really bugs me these days is the number of people who have set up businesses that do little other than "sell the dream" of making it big in songwriting. What they're really doing is "selling the myth", or at best "selling how it used to be". The number of songwriters in Nashville making a truly decent living from songwriting alone is less than 100....substantially less. It has become less and less of a viable profession, and I think in my lifetime will cease to be one. We've pretty much all become professional hobbyists. I've been able to sustain myself from a combination of past royalties, current activity (mostly in alt markets like bluegrass, Americana, & red dirt), producing a few acts, and TV/film synch stuff. I'm also at a stage of life where I'm ok with that and place more value in doing what I love than trying to make a bunch of money doing something I despise.

Longer answer and more info than you probably wanted, sorry....I got on a roll.

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There was a similar discussion regarding income from music here on the forum several years ago. A young girl loved to create music and dreamed of being a star but life, children, exposure, luck and all the other variables and factors had her in a position she knew she'd never become a big star. She realized what she could do was develop a fan base of a specific number that would purchase an album and piece of merchandise for a $25 value. Her purpose was to locate a group of hard core fans to some particular niche/genre of music that were fiercely loyal to the genre and would become repeat customers and purchase her new album and new merchandise piece each year.

If she could locate and make a $25 sale to 1,000 people, worldwide from her website over the period of a year and retain half after taxes and expenses of the $25,000 gross income, she could net a minimum wage income without having to work a 32-40 hour repetitive week of labor. She was creating a passive income of a years salary from a one time creation of her music into an album release and an accompanying piece of merchandise attached to it that she only has to create and produce once and replicate it thereafter.

With her fan base comprised of loyal fans of the genre and her music composed in that genre, she would retain a percentage of repeat customers to buy her new album the second year and would not have to locate an entire new fan base of 1,000 fans. Also, each album remains on line and available year after year for new customers to find and purchase.

I shared this story because to me, there's a bit of parallel and this discussion about retirement from a single hit music income. You nailed it about "people who have set up businesses that do little other than "sell the dream" of making it big in songwriting." However, that's different than someone wanting to retire with $xx amount of income per month. Two different dreams.

It's the $xx amount that's important more so than the labor source that generated the money or how long it took to accumulate the total. Regardless if an income amount comes from music royalties over the period of a year or monthly payments into a 401k account over 30 years, a $300,000 net lump sum is the same to a person's retirement account. Couple a $1,300 monthly net draw from a lump sum retirement account with the average net $1,200 social security amount, and it's possible to retire comfortably on $2,500 per month retirement. Taking lump sum retirement payments and placing accounts with these retirement specialty companies is done millions of times per year.

The same net $300,000 amount that you estimated is possible income from a massive hit is the same net dollar amount derived from pension payments and generates enough net monthly income for someone to retire.


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Hypothetically? Yes.

Realistically? Not a chance in the world.

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Quote:
An average hit song on the radio today will earn the songwriter $600-800,000 in performance royalties. For example, The Black Eyed Peas song "Boom Boom Pow" has had 6.3 million single sales and 3.15 million album sales to date which equates to $860,000 in songwriting royalties. Since the song was written by all four band members, each person has earned roughly $215,000 just off performance royalties.

Synchronization rights – any time a song is used on TV, in a movie, in a commercial. Whoever owns the master copyrights of a song (typically the record company) dictates when a song is licensed and for how much. Artists can earn $300,000 if their song is used in a national commercial or film and $50,000 for a prime time television show.



that's from the story.

But when you look at the reality.... as has been said, very few songs every hit the radio that are written by one writer. Most are 2 or more. Even if the artist didn't write a single word....they still ask for a share of the writers portion. Most writers willingly agree. It's that or nothing. In the example above.... divide the gross by 4, suddenly it's not really a lot of money then after that, you have to pay the taxes..... and it shrinks even more. What's left gets spent quickly by most. A new car, a few toys and poof.... it's gone.

Synch rights.... that number is mostly fantasy for the majority of writers. If they use your song in a national TV commercial, you will be lucky to gross $50k. Same kind of story.... there's a lot of songs we're considering for this spot and while we'd really like to use yours, the money you're asking is too much. So..... unless you are a major recording artist already AND this song was a huge hit already.... you ain't getting nothing close to the numbers they are discussing in that section of the story. Fact is most TV commercial music gets under $25k for national spots and that is before taxes and fees. If you have to split it with anyone..... you might be able to pay your bills for a month or two.


I met a few folks who were (at the time) among the elite providers of the music for the big national tv talk shows. The one guy showed me his monthly BMI print out. Now understand, at the time, he was claiming to have been making over $100k a year. His printout was 4 to 5 pages long. With most of the songs paying a few dollars each. Some were in the $50 range and a few were over $100. His music was on Oprah, Dr Phil, and Dr Oz. He had close to 1000 songs and cues licensed and working.

From my own experience, there are songs that will literally pay you 5 cents. Others, a few dollars. It's when you have hundreds or thousands doing that monthly that you actually make some spending cash.

To retire comfortably as a writer, you have to be doing this for a long time and either build and maintain a current catalog of TV & Film music that's in demand, or be in a position to get your music to a major artist or artists, again, for a number of years. One hit to retirement really isn't on most folks list of accomplishments.

Last edited by Guitarhacker; 05/29/20 07:32 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Roger Brown
Hypothetically? Yes.

Realistically? Not a chance in the world.



This discussion for all practical purposes is for naught because one of the primary figures of the article, Gary Portnoy, has a career much more storied than his big hit, " Where Everybody Knows your name" and he has an estimated net worth of $13 million. The discussion is further muddied as both Roger and Herb point out, in this instance in particular, Mr. Portnoy also had a co-writer. Co-writer Judy Hart Angelo also has a much larger portfolio and career beyond the one song they are most famous for and appears to have a new worth around $12 million. wink

However, there's nothing hypothetical about the real possibility, regardless of the time to do so or the source from where it originates, today, it's possible to accumulate enough dollars from one hit song to retire. It's not an impossibility that a song from Herb's catalog get chosen for a major production movie and for whatever reason, it's possible he gets offered $150,000. Likely, no. Impossible, no. It's possible a mainstream pop star selects and records their version Roger's song recorded by Trace Adkins 25 years ago and it becomes the biggest hit of the last 10 years. Likely, no. Impossible, no.

Every day someone, somewhere through no effort of their own to create it, receive an inheritance, find they own something that has extreme value, sell a piece of real estate, receive a settlement, or win a lottery that changes their life. Every day someone, somewhere through efforts of their own to create it, invents something, writes something, sell a song, book, game, or app, or retires and cashes in a retirement account worth tens of thousands or a million dollars.

The odds of any individual making it writing a hit song is akin to any individual making it big as an NBA basketball star. Many will try and most will fail, but someone always makes it. The odds are not impossible.


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Charlie, very respectfully, this conversation has devolved into me trying to shoot straight and tell you the honest truth, and you not budging until I say what you want to hear.

Anything is "possible". But the statistical chance of a scenario such as you suggest happening is a virtual impossibility. If you want to die on the hill of "technically it's possible" then fine, yes it's technically possible. But again, a virtual impossibility.

Let me walk you through what you are suggesting as a being possible. Part of the problem begins with an incorrect assumption that is often made - that being, that a great song will eventually rise to the top. That's false - it's false because the music business isn't about "art" or "great songs", it's about hits and making money - money THEY make, not money they have to pay you. Assuming a given unproven writer somehow manages to write an epic song, you have to get someone to listen to it. That has become next to impossible because of how out of hand infringement litigation has gotten. If by some miracle you can circumvent that first roadblock, then the exact artist/producer or tv/film music director has to A) hear it, and B) "hear" it (meaning knowing that it's a great song). After that, they have to be comfortable that this unknown writer is not some whacko or highly-litigious individual that would make dealing with them a nightmare, which they are EXTREMELY paranoid about. Get past that, and it becomes a matter of finding the right fit for the song....right artist, right movie, right project; that doesn't happen like turning on a light switch. Then, the song has to be so incredibly stellar, that whichever artist/movie/etc. in question is willing to forego including a song that they wrote or they own the publishing on, and thus pass up on making that money for themselves. After that, record labels/publishers will see that the song is independently published, and they'll come after a share of it, and I mean hard. They'll also be pressing equally hard on the artist/producer/movie guy to include one of their songs, up to and including a "Let'$ do lunc$h and di$cu$$ the$e song$ we'd like you to con$ider". In the ridiculously unlikely scenario that the song gets through all those obstacles, it then has to be selected, out of all the other available material on the project in question, to be THE song - where yet again, songs that were written/published by the artist/producer/etc. are going to be given heavily weighted consideration over any outside songs. Then it has to be a hit - not just a "hit"; but a massive, stay 5 or 6 weeks at number 1 and spend months on the charts hit, which is yet another needle in a haystack.

On top of all that, the writer in question would have to be so incredibly frugal, so grounded, so financial mature in their thinking, that they wouldn't touch any of the royalties when they came in, other to invest them. That's a hell of a lot harder to do than it sounds. I've gotten some of those 5/6 figure checks that you're talking about. The discipline it takes to not spend any of that money, even "just a little", is almost superhuman. The lottery comparison you made is an interesting one - go research how many lottery winners have wound up bankrupt after winning - the number is a lot higher than you might think.

This question has had me intrigued, so I put out a bunch of phone calls out to peers of mine, writers who have written hits that were #1 songs (plural, more than one). None of them, not a single one - believes that a writer could retire off of one hit. And in the going-on 40 years I've been in Nashville, I've never met a writer, or heard of any, who did.
I've been giving the Nashville perspective (obviously), but as daunting as I make it sound, it's far far easier to make it here than in NY or LA.

Yes, anything is possible. I could win powerball tomorrow - it's possible. Expecting that to happen, or even hoping for it, isn't much of a retirement plan.

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Originally Posted By: Roger Brown
Yes, anything is possible. I could win powerball tomorrow - it's possible. Expecting that to happen, or even hoping for it, isn't much of a retirement plan.

^^^This!




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Mr. Brown, I certainly respect what you do and understand that what you do is a very tough and competitive field and great success in the field takes skill, determination, a bit of luck and good timing. I know even a casual look beyond the article reveals the people mentioned in the article are not only the exception to the norm, but their fortunes derive from many streams of income and not just royalties. The purpose of Harold's comment to me was to motivate me to start back writing. His comment didn't promise success or that the journey would be easy or anything other than how you and Herb describe it. You and Herb give us a wonderful and insightful look from the inside perspective you have of the reality, difficulty and the harsh statistics. I believe every word you guys shared.

I think my post may have touched your "selling the myth" button a little and I regret that it did. I had stopped writing songs at the time Harold made his comment to me and his intent was to motivate me to write again. Over my lifespan, writing has always been at the hobbyist level. I've never attempted to make my living writing or performing music. I've never pitched a song. I've never joined a PRO.

I think it's unlikely you nor your peers you phoned have ever written a song while in high school and later recorded it onto an album that didn't sell 500 copies yet 42 years later a producer cold called and purchased the rights to include that song in a documentary. Virtually impossible but that's what happened to me. That company also got the song included into the sound track of a movie, which is something I could never accomplish on my own. The song just wasn't included in the sound track but was also the focus of a scene in the movie.

Believe me, it is not a hit song, great recording or 'art'. It is an amateurish, poorly recorded, obscure song that somehow did not pass through a single roadblock or obstacle you detailed. It's not a song that contributed to my retirement but the advance was more than the total album sales. The original songs on the User Showcase are better quality in content and production.

I appreciate your's and Herb's insight into the real world and completely agree it's the norm. Hopefully you understand the motivational aspect of my post and that I have no intent to "sell the myth".

Last edited by Charlie Fogle; 05/30/20 03:43 AM.

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Appreciate your kind response, Charlie (and please call me Roger, my father was Mr. Brown). I understand your point, and you are probably accurate that the article hit my "selling the myth" button. I'm not a fan of "motivational" posts as they pertain to songwriting, I hope you'll indulge me by letting me elaborate.

You clearly have a well-grounded and realistic perception of the challenges, odds, etc. In your case, or in the case of people like you in that regard, a little motivational stuff is a good and healthy thing.

Here's the rub, and why I'm not a fan. The sad truth is, most people are NOT well-grounded and realistic about the music business, and in particular about songwriting. Over the years, I've encountered dozens and dozens (maybe even hundreds) of writers who picked up stakes, sold the farm, and moved to Nashville to make it big. Very, very few of them attained any success whatsoever. Sometimes it was bad luck, or bad timing, or unforeseen circumstances or life events that derailed them. Sometimes they had or developed drug/alcohol problems. Often they lacked the ability to integrate socially into the music business (an EXTREMELY overlooked and vital component of success).

The reason most of them didn't make it, however, was simply they weren't good enough. I know that sounds callous and harsh, but it's just the reality of it. I was a pretty good baseball player in my youth - but I was nowhere near good enough to ever make it to the major leagues. The music business, and I know you know this, is absolutely the major leagues, and it's very cruel and unforgiving. Hunter Thompson's quote about it was spot on. And the luck and timing aspect I mentioned is probably the most important part of all, even above talent.

Over the years I've just watched far too many good people have their dreams (and sometimes even their lives) crushed by unsuccessfully trying to follow the dream. Far too many of them, quite frankly, never should have tried it in the first place. Someone should have been brutally honest with them about their songs before they came to a town where everyone will be cuttingly, harshly honest about their songs. I had a guy call me from TX just a couple of months ago, friend of a friend. He told me he had sat down one day and started writing songs, and he had 11 finished, and wondered what he should do about coming to Nashville. I started to tap the brakes and he said "I've played them for my wife, kids and friends and they all think they're great!". So I asked him if he knew anybody who hated his guts, who really couldn't stand the sight of him - I said if that guy likes your songs, then we can talk. I wasn't trying to be mean - I was trying to prepare & educate him for what he was stepping into.

My problem with motivational articles, speakers, or posts regarding songwriting is this - every time I read one or hear one, I think of all the people I've watched have their hearts & souls ripped to shreds - because instead of someone being honest and upfront about their (lack of) ability, they were misled by well-intentioned encouragements of "hey, give it a shot!", or as in the article you posted, "it only takes one!" I have found that far too often, unfortunately, encouragement can be, as Shakespeare wrote, "the most unkindest cut of all." So I suppose my responses to your post were not so much directed at you, an individual who has an obviously astute perspective on things, but more towards other people who might read that and fall into the kind of traps I've described. Maybe few reading this will understand what I'm getting at, or that I'm truly trying to be helpful. It's probably a poor analogy, but I've always been the kind of guy who, if I were diagnosed with terminal cancer, would want the doctor to tell me as kindly and clearly as possible how much time I have left - and not tell me "oh, everything will be ok, don't worry about it".

I always enjoy reading your posts, and hope you are staying safe and well during these uncertain times.

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I absolutely agree with everything you've said. Hopefully readers will grasp how deeply in the subject you're rooted and appreciate the authority from which you speak.

It's been a good conversation and we both presented our thoughts from our vastly different backgrounds. I freely admit I received what can only be conceived as unfair advantages that were undeserved and unmerited but available to me because of family connections. I think everyone got a good presentation from both of us to decide to take the risk or run the other way. I appreciate you providing me the opportunity to freely state my views.


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Charlie Fogle wrote,

"I think it's unlikely you nor your peers you phoned have ever written a song while in high school and later recorded it onto an album that didn't sell 500 copies yet 42 years later a producer cold called and purchased the rights to include that song in a documentary. Virtually impossible but that's what happened to me. That company also got the song included into the sound track of a movie, which is something I could never accomplish on my own. The song just wasn't included in the sound track but was also the focus of a scene in the movie"
.................................
Very interesting thread and I guess Harold your brother was right about you only having to to get it right once, in your case. Leaving the money part of it aside, I'm sure that otherwise you get as much satisfaction on knowing 42 years later that, the song had finally made it.



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Yes, it's very satisfying and something I've always thought would be so cool to have an original song in a movie. My wife and I had a good laugh when we had our first opportunity to watch the movie. Before ever watching it, I fast forwarded to the end credits and viewed that first. For years my wife has endured sitting through the end credits of every movie because it's something I enjoy sometimes as much as the movie itself. That was certainly the case in this instance.


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A songwriting career is a hard uphill battle. Some will make it. As pointed out... you have all of the industry roadblocks to overcome. But first, you have to be able to write professional grade songs. Not may writers can do that. A really good song doesn't cut it. Not in the business world today.

Assuming you write a stellar song and get it demoed professionally and get it into the right hands at the right time and it gets heard by the major artist... it goes on a short list. There's only room on a CD for 12 or so songs. The artist is pushing for their own songs to fill those 12 slots. The short list often is comprised of hundreds of other stellar songs. So, unless you are buddies with that artist, or their manager, or have a history of hits.... you're not likely to get the cut.

This is the primary reason I opted to go into the film and TV music aspect and have seen some success in getting music cut commercially this way. It's still not a downhill coast. The competition in this niche is ferocious and the bar is high. There's literally tens of thousands of writers doing this same thing. But at least the market is bigger than the Nashville and LA record scene.


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Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Volume Automation

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Video: Audio Input Monitoring with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created this short video to explain Audio Input Monitoring within Band-in-a-Box® 2024, and included some tips & troubleshooting details too!

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Audio Input Monitoring

3:17: Tips
5:10: Troubleshooting

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#audio-input-monitoring

Video: Enhanced Melodists in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®!

We've enhanced the Melodists feature included in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows!

Access the Melodist feature by pressing F7 in the program to open the new MultiPicker Library and locate the [Melodist] tab.

You can now generate a melody on any track in the program - very handy! Plus, you select how much of the melody you want generated - specify a range, or apply it to the whole track.

See the Melodist in action with our video, Band-in-a-Box® 2024: The Melodist Window.

Learn even more about the enhancements to the Melodist feature in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024upgrade/chapter3.htm#enhanced-melodist

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Specifically for Reaper®

New with the DAW Plugin Version 6.0, released with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows: the Reaper® Panel!

This new panel offers built-in specific support for the Reaper® DAW API allowing direct transfer of Band-in-a-Box® files to/from Reaper® tracks!

When you run the Plugin from Reaper®, there is a panel to set the following options:
-BB Track(s) to send: This allows you to select the Plugin tracks that will be sent Reaper.
-Destination Reaper Track: This lets you select the destination Reaper track to receive media content from the Plugin.
-At Bar: You can select a bar in Reaper where the Plugin tracks should be placed.
-Start Below Selected Track: This allows you to place the Plugin tracks below the destination Reaper track.
-Overwrite Reaper Track: You can overwrite previous content on the destination Reaper track.
-Move to Project Folder: With this option, you can move the Plugin tracks to the Reaper project folder.
-Send Reaper Instructions Enable this option to send the Reaper Instructions instead of rendering audio tracks, which is faster.
-Render Audio & Instructions: Enable this option to generate audio files and the Reaper instructions.
-Send Tracks After Generating: This allows the Plugin to automatically send tracks to Reaper after generating.
-Send Audio for MIDI Track: Enable this option to send rendered audio for MIDI tracks.
-Send RealCharts with Audio: If this option is enabled, Enable this option to send RealCharts with audio.

Check out this video highlighting the new Reaper®-specific features: Band-in-a-Box® DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Specifically for Reaper®

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Video

The new Band-in-a-Box VST DAW Plugin Verion 6 adds over 20 new features!

Watch the new features video to learn more: Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2024 - DAW Plugin Version 6 New Features

We also list these new features at www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.plugin.htm.

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