PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Songwriting Writing better riffs/solos

This topic is partly about learning to play, but maybe more about writing, so posting it here. It's about writing interesting solos (and riffs). Those may be two different things, so I can split this topic up if needed.

So here's the deal - I'm trying to write better solos and also add more interesting and complex riffs to my songs. My method is normally to use a MIDI keyboard and play the midi through into BIAB after choosing the style, realtracks and chord progression. I can play notes that fit with the chords, but it's just a bit slow and often boring, and I find myself often "stuck" using the same pattern and often playing more of a melody that follows the chords than a solo, which sort of complements them.

In an effort to find examples of solos I tried the Soloist feature in BIAB to see what would fit with my song, and some customized BIAB imported songs for comparison. It was somewhat helpful to get a sense of the scale notes and the timings that would fit and definitely had a lot more action than my own solos - and sometimes too much! I was wondering if anyone else has tried the Soloist feature or anything similar in BIAB to do the same sort of thing.

I know that a lot of people learn by emulating great performers and practicing their styles and their performances on songs, but I'm not at that skill level yet - for example emulating Albert Collins on guitar - but I'm trying.

So I'd really like to hear what worked for people here which enabled you to create solos in your own songs - I've heard some really great solo work here in the User Showcase forum.

If you need more specifics let me know.

For me - having an instructor cover scales and music theory extensively. For example, I have one scale that covers the full guitar neck. We have been covering that scale for about 4 months now. Variations, etc.

It is amazing how much that detail has helped my playing and improvisation.

I was outside with my guitar last evening. A kid came by and he asked me what I was playing. I responded with "to be honest, it isn't a song. I was just playing." He said that was really good.

...Deb

I played in a cover band for many years and got really good at figuring out guitar solos by ear (wasn't any internet or tab back then) but when it came to improvising a solo I would end up playing the same basic licks over and over again.

What worked for me is I taped a backing track of rhythm guitar, a I-IV-V 12 bar blues for example, maybe 10 minutes long or so (no BIAB back then either ) then I would take a lick from a solo I really liked and just play that lick over those changes, seeing how it worked over each chord change, and if it didn't, what notes I needed to change to make it work over each chord change. Then start changing some of the notes, adding lead in notes, etc. Pretty soon you have developed some licks that work over all the chord changes. Then find another lick you like and repeat the process. Then combine the two licks, etc. etc.

You must be into blues if you like Albert Collins.

I would recommend Albert King as a good guy to study initially. He had a very simple, but very effective style. Learn some of his licks and see how you can apply them over different chord changes, and what you might need to modify to make them work. With BIAB as you know it's very easy to setup a great sounding backup track to play over.

Most of all, have fun with it!

A guitarist I worked with for a period several years ago told me after years of playing, they downloaded (I believe it was) Audacity, and figured out how to make it record "what they hear" on their computer, and then used it to isolate a solo they wanted to learn.

We used to have little jam sessions and record them with this same method.

He would adjust a selection until it loops perfectly through the first part of the solo, and save it to a new track. Then the next solo section, and so on, until they had a track for each section.

Then they'd spend time on each section, letting it loop over and over, until they got it.

I haven't spoken to this person in a long time now - we used to have a lot of fun, he's moved on to be a studio musician for decently big acts, and he's based out of Toronto now. I've heard they're doing very well for themselves.

There have been some really good methods explained already so I will add only two:

1-use phrases from the melodist or soloist. That is generate so a melodist track but only take a few measures from it and expand on those measures.

2-go on line and search for some instruction DLs or DVDs. There is a lot of information on line that can be very helpful.

Check out the instruction videos at TrueFire.

They change every month. They offer a lot of $5 downloads. So it is east to try a few and see if you like how they are presented (and if you learn anything).

https://truefire.com/summertime-blues

A great blues player! You might want listen and not watch Albert King as he is left handed and although he plays a lefty guitar it is strung upside down...a righty could play it but the knobs would be on the top. So he is strumming up and playing chords completely differently finger wise. So many, many people think Hendrix played like this but he played a right handed guitar strung for a lefty...so his finger positions, etc., are the same as a righty.

Pardon the digression...I am an old lefty!

Bud

Otis Rush, another of my favourite players, also played upside down with the high ‘E’ string on top. A more modern guy, Eric Gales, does the same.

Interesting to watch for sure!

Wow - thanks Deb, Mario, Dave, Deryk, Floyd, Bud - I feel like I hit the jackpot. These are some great recommendations that will keep me busy for quite some time! I will definitely check out Otis Rush, Eric Gales, and Albert King. I am a big blues fan, but I also enjoy jazz, country, and so forth.

I have to add that I've learned a tremendous amount about music and how it works in the couple years since I got BIAB and discovered these forums, and the level of knowledge and talent here is very impressive.

Going to check into some of these tonight first thing after work

Make sure to watch Rick Beato’s channel on YouTube, particularly the ‘what makes this song great‘ series In almost every episode he will break down some of the riffs and melodic items that the particular song has at hand.

Yes sir - huge fan of Rick Beato and a Beato Club member The breakdown of Nirvana's Smells Like Teen Spirit was eye opening. I watch the music theory stuff too, and take in what I can.

Rick Beato is one of my favorite YouTube guys, but his topics can get way over the average guy's head in a hurry in terms of music theory. I know a fair amount of music theory and I've seen a number of his talks just go sailing right over my head, but oh well, to the topic.

I've been playing at being a "lead guitarist" since about 1968, which is roughly when I discovered the blues.

I think that if you want to write good solos, well, you need to be able to play good solos, or at least understand them pretty well. So I'm gonna take you back to my roots with some recommendations. Back before I discovered the blues, I was really into Hendrix and Clapton of the Cream. Those two were my guitar gods and I listened to their music constantly. I got to where I was able to play a number of their licks as well, picking them off of records by ear. Then when I started developing a blues style, I became somewhat more analytical. I spent a HUGE amount of time with the first three John Mayall and the Blues Breakers albums: with Eric Clapton, Peter Green, and Mick Taylor -- in that order. Of the three, I found the first, the one with Clapton, to be the most formative. To me, it sounded as if the licks Clapton was playing were improvisational, whereas by the time Mick Taylor arrived on the scene, it sounded as if they were coming from a canned repertory.

But little did I know . . . it was a few years later when I heard my first Albert King album. Suddenly I'm hearing all these licks that I had heard Clapton play -- difference was King was playing with a more or less clean sound using his thumb, where Clapton was overdriving his Marshalls and playing with a skritchy-sounding pick. Huh, that was a real eye-opener. So, yeah, definitely add Albert King to the list. I also listened to a lot of American blues artists, mostly folks that played electric guitar, like the great BB King and John Lee Hooker. Also the Paul Butterfield Blues Band, although I found them to be a bit too slickly commercial for my tastes.

As time has moved on there have been so many talented players who have made their marks, and I'm sure I don't know the half of them. Folks like Joe Walsh of the Eagles, Eddie Van Halen, Steve Vai (and the whole shred movement), Joe Satriani, George Benson, Lee Ritenour, Larry Carlton, Russ Freeman, Norman Brown and many more. All of these guys are worth spending some time with, analyzing what it is that makes their solos work.

And that's just guitar. When it comes to keyboards, I'm not at all current as to who's hot. I remember listening to a lot of Brian Auger back in the early 70s, who played a Hammond B3, Keith Emmerson, Rick Wakeman of Yes, and Jan Hammer of Miami Vice fame. Of them all, I guess I liked the kind of laid back style of Auger the best, although I was quite impressed with Hammer's ability to emulate guitar. I also enjoy good saxophone solo work. There have been quite a few sax greats, but probably the greatest contemporary sax player -- or at least the most influential -- other than the likes of Dave Koz who does a great job of self-promotion -- is David Sanborn. Man, can that dude play the horn!

Now, if I may discuss for a bit some basics of not just writing solos, but melody in general. General things to keep in mind when you're writing. If writing in a common time signature, like 4-4, try to have your most important notes land on the downbeat. When playing in 16th notes, for example, that means notes 1 and 3 of a quadruplet, with 1 being favored over 3. These "most important" notes are often the highest notes in a scale passage or arpeggio. Don't be afraid to mix things up rhythmically. Some folks can pull off solos of all 16th or 32nd notes, but I don't recommend this. Changes in rhythm add to the element of surprise, which keeps a listener engaged. Also, when planning out the overall structure of the solo, it should have a beginning, middle and end. Just like a good book or short story, it's important for the beginning to have a good "hook," to set the listener's interest. This is built upon, where the middle often employs more exposition, slowly building thematically, possibly by restating or embellishing upon a theme. And the ending needs to have a climax -- some sort of virtuositic flourish that anchors the whole thing. And once this is played, the solo should come to a conclusion shortly after.

Now, if you're playing over a fairly common sort of progression, say a I IV V or a I VI IV V, you can stay pretty much in one key the entire time. Frequently in blues, players will switch back and forth between major and minor, depending on where they are in the progression -- actually usually it's mixolydian and dorian, but major and minor is close enough. But other progressions are not so easy to solo over, and this is where you have to examine the progression more closely, analyzing the chord structures and seeing if you can puzzle out an interesting sounding thread of notes that weave in and around these structures. That can be challenging, but it is usually well worth the time spent, so I strongly recommend you take this approach when writing solos over more complex progressions.

Okay, well I've blathered on long enough. Should give you a thing or two to think about, at any rate.

Wow, what an amazing resource. Wish something like that would have been around during my formative period.

^^ This!

Thanks Michel. That's some great info, and really interesting to hear about your specific experiences in learning to play and perform. It really hit home, too because I was just watching a couple videos yesterday where Miles Davis and Herbie Hancock were talking about music. Herbie was a lot more verbose . But anyway, there's a common theme that keeps coming up - listen, listen, listen to the masters, and then practice, practice, practice. I've got a good list of my own favorite masters and now a few new ones. It's great to have some focus because it's not like when I was young and you could go to the record store and select from a few hundred albums - now it's like millions. Then there's the tools and the gear and the products that let you create amazing sounds with a few clicks (including BIAB). Nothing wrong with those tools, but I don't want to get caught up in the glitz and glamor.

Back to the topic at hand, with all of the above that's at least 10 years of work lined up, so yes, that will keep me busy for a while!

That recent episode was amazing. When he played the vocal melody over the chords with a clean guitar sound, was that crazy how beautiful that was or what?

I always marginally liked that album for the Extreme dynamics and Cobain’s on-pitch buzzsaw vocal in the chorus of that song, but really never appreciated the melody amongst the chords like Rick pointed out. Watch the Muse episode for some really cool melody ideas as well and rather obtuse chords. I’m writing a song right now where I’m stealing some of the unexpected chord progressions, and the extended chords from Smells Like Teen Spirit

Thanks sir! I'm a big Muse fan and enjoyed this!