PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box for Windows Root-5 or power chords?

How can I get BIAB to recognize power chords? For example, I want D5, C5, D5 in the key of Dm.

Can't you just use a Slash Chord, like Dm/A ?
This will play a Dm chord with an A bass.
Is that the outcome you're looking for? Otherwise, please let us know more.

BIAB supports D5, A5, etc. (These are "root + 5th" chords.)

Because there is no third in these chords, they are neither major nor minor. They work in both keys.

Yes, of course Noel's on the money here. To the O/P, I somehow presumed you had tried using that chord input previously but unsuccessfully. Maybe that's not the case?

I was trying to sequence The Meters' Fire On The Bayou, where I figured out the correct rhythm for the part. However, I really can't get it to sound correct with 3rds in the chords.

It does a rhythm very much like Steve Miller's Fly Like An Eagle, with D5-->C5-->D5-->Dm. When I enter the chords like this, I get DMaj triads. Not good. I need the 3rds of the chords removed.

In the style picker filter window write power chords and you will find all of the styles that use power chords. Of course you have to input D5 - C5 - D5 etc in the chord chart.

Many styles will not play a power chord so you have to choose a style that does play them.

Can you please capture a printscreen image of your BIAB desktop with the mixer open so that we can see what instruments you have loaded in the song in question. Once I know this, I'll check and see which one (or more) of these instruments are not playing the X5 chords.

If you are unsure how to post and image, go to the link below.

https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=472139#Post472139

I've just been working on a song that uses G5 a lot and it's worked perfectly for me.

Regards,
Noel

I've often noticed that when entering "Power chords" that BiaB will play the 3rd.

BTW, I hate the term "power chords". Two notes (like root and fifth) is by definition an interval, not a chord. It takes 3 notes to play a chord.

Although I hate it, everybody uses it so I'll use it myself, and quietly grimace inside every time I do.

Since I export everything I do in BiaB to a MIDI file, I can erase the 3rds but it is time consuming.

Insights and incites by Notes

I'm glad you raised that Notes. I also don't feel incredibly comfortable with the term "Power chords", and agree on the minimum number of notes required to start to establish a chord structure. Two usually isn't adequate.

I agree about the "power chords" nomenclature, but whatta ya gonna do?

So, you enter the style, the chords, and chord settings/rhythms into BIAB and export the result to a MIDI file? What do you do with it from there?

You are not alone my friend! I also hate the name "power chord".

Exporting to midi and manually erasing the 3rd would work if you have a good guitar (or whatever instrument you need) VSTi or synth to play the midi through.

You could edit the audio to remove the 3rd with melodyne if you have it, but that would be very time consuming.

Mario had the best suggestion I think; find a style that uses power chords.

Well, that's fairly ridiculous. I'm using a funk style, that while it doesn't make use of distorted guitar, still is appropriate for root-5 chords. Using BIAB styles already a bit limiting; letting them decide when particular chord types is appropriate is now okay? How difficult is it to allow chords with no 3rds in them for all styles? What harm could it possibly cause for someone to specify root-5 voicings in an otherwise unusual musical situation?

You old guys are such purists . You have to check Wiki on this one. The power chord has a lot more sound than an simple interval:


But you knew that. Said with a big smile guys!

I assume, he edits the MIDI, as he stated.
Pick your MIDI editor .. FWIW, RB has a nice one, with the data filters and all.

Since you used D5-C5-D5 you could safely CUT any Eb, E, F or F# notes pretty easily using the Note Range feature of the Data Filter ..
That's just one way

/trying to answer the OPs followup question
//yeah, power chords may not meet the definition of a chord, but they do accurately imply the intent.
Some pretty famous guitar players have used these implied/induced harmonics that Music Student cited very effectively. David Gilmore comes to mind

Dan here is some music theory about chords for you:

https://www.musiclearning.com/gtr/guitar-chords/

Send with a bigger smile

I consulted with my expert on the topic...

Where's the Jazz

Here it is.

I prefer 'diads'. Play them on my bass all the time.

Well, that doesn't really answer my question. I wanted to find out how Bob does the MIDI edit, not the number of ways I could do it. I'm curious as to how someone who seems to live in the MIDI world, i.e. doesn't use RTs, edits MIDI cleanly and quickly. I could certainly export the MIDI file to Finale, delete the notes that I don't want, and then export the corrected file to a .mid file, but that would clearly be a major clusterfuck. I'm wondering what the most optimal way would be. As you say, maybe RB is the way to do it.

However, I'm not sure what the point is. Once I've edited the MIDI file, what next? Import it back to BIAB or Real Band? Maybe freeze that track that I edited so that it doesn't get regenerated? It sounds like a lot of work to get around the fact that BIAB interprets "D5" incorrectly.

This is fairly ridiculous. I just did a search in the Style Picker to filter by the song "Fire On The Bayou". A number of them have a good handle on the feel and interpret my entered rhythms the way that I want. However, every funk or R&B style listed drops a clear D Maj chord on beat one, even though the chord is listed "D5". I've got the key set to Dm; no love. What moron at PG Music made the decision that "D5" chords are only good for hard rock or metal style guitar styles? All other styles must use major/minor chords?

Don't even get me started on the fact that all styles that have anything decent for funk rhythms have also got that generic Wah guitar all over it. One good non-wah funk rhythm guitar track would allow me to enjoy the rest of my days happy. I guess I'll have to lay down my own User Track.

I am a bit confused. The chart you show with the root-fifth's are all real tracks. That means there is no midi involved here, so nothing to edit. Strictly audio based on what the artist recorded. Apparently, the band did not play any power chords. So ya, you need a different real track set. This is where we usually point to the Wish List, but I don't think that or user tracks are going to satisfy you. Sorry.

Yes, using your style and chords, BIAB plays big time major thirds on those 5 chords.

But I wonder if the presence of the minor chord encourages BIAB to resolve it, to differentiate between the minor and the power chord. I’m not suggestion this is the right thing to do, just wondering.

Except that you're defending something that isn't under attack. The power chord isn't a chord, it subs for a chord. A chord is taken from the tonality of the tune. A power chord needs something else to clarify the tonality. If I play CMaj-->Am-->D5-->GMaj, we have no idea if the D5 represents the Dm chord or the D7 chord(the two likeliest suspects). If the soloist is interpreting this as D7, he may use an F# note over the chord. However, if someone else decides to play a background harmony over the chord, but interprets it as Dm, the diatonic chord from the key, then there is going to be a clash. I like The Clash, but even they weren't stupid enough to mix Major and Minor tonalities with no rhyme or reason.

No amount of distortion is going to fix that issue.

Well, then that's a glaring omission then, isn't it? Why would BIAB assign a Real Track that is clearly playing DMaj when the chord cited should be D5? I just picked a style(a number of them, actually) that is supposed to refer to the song that I am inputting. Fire On The Bayou is quite clearly not in a Major key, and although I've specified the key of Dm, it interprets the D5 as Major(?).

Someone screwed the pooch on this one.

However, I can't record my own User Track for playing root-5 diads over D5? So, there is no possible way to create a BIAB track for this one particular song without the completely wrong chords? Seems like a pretty big shortcoming. Type a chord in and the software plays a different chord. Anyone picture a problem with this?

The answer is because the real tracks, that YOU selected, does not have a D5 recorded, so the program substitutes with what it has.

No arguments here, BIAB is not perfect. No one is defending anything here. We are just trying to understand what you are describing and hoping to suggest a workaround. This is not the first time users have encountered this type of issue. You say you have tried multiple different RTs. No one is playing an D5? In that case, BIAB is possible not the tool of choice for this arrangement. Or you have to go to you DAW and really do some surgical editing. The third can be removed from an audio track with tools like Melodyn.

We also should likely get to this PGM to see if they happen to have some powerchord recordings which were omitted or can be added to these styles.

Just tying to provide thoughts on the matter. Oh and by the way that Jazz Chords comment was just my sense of humor! Not trying to deflect from the issue here.

I looked closer at your chosen style. The notations for your chosen style using powerchords appears to show the guitarist gets it right (so he does know how to play a root/fifth, but the piano player has other things on his mind.

Can you fire (mute) the piano player (or limit his use) and have the guitarist take lead?

When I run the track, the major 3rds are clearly in both the guitar and organ parts.

If so, than the guitar notation is incorrect, or there is a re-generation (hit and miss) which will yield the proper chords. Have you tried multiriffs to hear all the different generations.

Ya, I know it should not be this much work, but this can be one complex program. More reason now to send this to PGM to point out the discrepancies - there maybe an easy fix for them which can be applied in the next patch.

I used to complain about the lack of consistency with "power whatever you want to call its", especially in the MIDI realm, but never got satisfactory results. If BIAB used C5 to indicate such a a construct, then why does the MIDI engine still often play the 3rd (and my experience is that it's always the major, not minor, 3rd). So what is a C5 chord then? Apparently just another name for a C chord. I stopped complaining after several yearly version releases with no resolution.

I have a lot of songs that show the chord as,for example, C(no3). I don't understand why this isn't fully supported,especially in MIDI, where the processing engine clearly generates all the notes for the chord and should know which note is the 3rd of a chord. The engine certainly knows how to add and flat 9ths, or change the 5th to sharp (Caug). 3rds seem to be a problem, in that a sus2 (different from add9, but which BIAB calls a C2 chord), isn't properly supported either, because in a sus chord the 4 (for sus or sus4) or 2 (for sus2) replaces the 3rd.

Granted, I haven't looked closely at this in awhile, but the comments on this thread seem to indicate that it behaves the same way it used to and what I previously experienced.

WEEEELL,
a lot of guitar players play the root, the 5th and the root's octave...does that float any boast?

I'm not specifically a user of these chords but I guess if the program indicates that it can deliver certain functionality, well, that ought to be available, surely.

Every interval has it's unique sound due to the mixing of harmonics. But it still doesn't make it a chord. One note is a note, two notes played at the same time is an interval, and three or more notes played at the same time is a chord.

Power chords are root/fifth intervals.

But people call that particular interval a power chord. I never could figure out why. I guess it was started by people who didn't learn music theory.

If you call a root/fifth interval a chord, then all double stops are also chords, and that corrupts the definitions of both an interval and a chord.

But I go ahead and call them power chords because as much as I don't like it, it's what people understand.

Insights and incites by Notes.

I don't use the real tracks very often. Not that I don't like them, I think there is a lot of genius, and I think they sound good but they aren't very editable, and I like to play with the music, taking what I consider the very good output of BiaB and personalize it to make it what I hope raises it from very good to excellent.

I do this by exporting to a MIDI file, opening it in Master Tracks Pro, Power Tracks Pro or Cakewalk and editing. It might be tine consuming, but the time goes by pleasantly and when I'm done, if the song sounds a lot better, I get a feeling of accomplishment. Also if I'm lucky I'll get to hear the finished product thousands of times.

I've noticed BiaB ignoring the C5 notation, which is supposed to be the root/fifth interval (aka power chord) and including the third to make it a C major. Sometimes this makes little difference, but if it does, I'll edit it.

I write a lot of styles. If I write a part with only 2 notes (interval) and then want that same part to play a chord, it won't. So which is worse?

For me it's easier to edit out the third than to try to insert one where I need an actual chord.

BiaB is a fantastic program, but like all programs, it does have limitations. Sometimes it takes a bit of work or creative thinking to overcome the limitations, but for all the other wonderful things it does and the time it saves me, it's well worth the time.

Insights and incites by Notes

With all due respect, this tread is drifting off topic. Most of the time I am to blame, but not this time.

The OP's issue is with RTs not playing the D5 (or any powerchord). While this may be also seen in midi tracks, that is not the issue here.

It appears that for the funk RTs the chording instruments do not have a recorded D5. That may be understandable if BIAB did not claim to support D5, but it does. Also the annotation added to the guitar track clearly showed it was sticking to a root-fifth-root chord, but Matt and the OP reported hearing the major third.

Let me try to take this directly over to the beta forum where we may get a response from the PGM team.

Hi to my mind Power chords are used by guitar players in the main, and as said above often contain the root the 5th and the octave of the root.
As they contain no 3rd they are neither major or minor so fit over a large range of melody notes.

THE ONE SHAPE FOR ALL POWER CHORD


The power chord is the same shape for any chord up and down the neck.
It takes it name from the note on the 6th string (thick) this is its Root
It only has 3 notes on the bottom 3 string they are
The root on 6th string.
The 5th on the 5th string .
The octave on the 4th string.
The top 3 high strings should be soft muted by the first finger that is playing the Root .

Hope this helps
Mike

OK Mike, I'll bite. As a guitarist myself, you have my total agreement on your perception.

But now, what does a keyboardist think/play when confronted with a powerchord in a chart?

He knows that he should play the root and fifth of the chord.

If he know theory he also knows that it is not a chord

hi Dan
I suspect that many just play the root and the 5th but not, the octave.
Which is why folks want to call it a a 2 note interval.
just my thoughts.

If he plays the root, fifth, and an octave higher root it still is a 2 note interval as there are only two notes, the root and fifth.

peace

Hi, Bob. Dan is right, we've gotten way off topic here, as my initial issue is clearly with Real Tracks rather than with MIDI. However, I am quite interested in how one makes MIDI tracks sound realistically like real instruments. Clearly you have a good sense of envelopes, dynamics, what to do with note-off commands, etc., for different instrument sounds. So you export the MIDI file as generated by BIAB, and use your algorithms to make the MIDI notes perform like a real player. What now, though? The only place you can import these edited MIDI files back into BIAB is the Melody track or the Soloist track, correct?



Again, if you edit out the third of the chord in a MIDI editor, how do you import the MIDI file back into guitar part of the generated BIAB part? Am I correct to assume that one has to then freeze the track so that BIAB doesn't regenerate it and the problem starts all over?



I've done with in sequencing bands before, and even done some sequencing. Usually the way to make the sequences sound more like real players had to do more with pushing the notes a little ahead or behind the best to make the phrasing more human, applying staccatos in creative places, alternating note ending times so that horn sections sounded more like separate players, etc. I almost had to spend as much time adding sloppiness to the parts than the time spent getting the right notes in.

However, when I hear sounds like Indiginus Blue Steel horn sounds, where they have effects to applied to the notes specifically to reproduce the sounds that a player may make, I wonder how those note could be edited and then imported back into BIAB. I'm not a keyboard player, but I'm not sure why I couldn't generate the MIDI notes from Finale, and then edit them with agorithms particular to horn parts, or guitar parts, etc.? However, again, can I then import them back into BIAB, or is there some way to do this editing right in BIAB and the freeze the track from regenerating?

It's easy. I record them live, in real time using the appropriate MIDI controller then I use a good MIDI sound source to play them back.

I do this when I make my Norton Music aftermarket styles. Everything gets recorded live, in real time, using the appropriate MIDI controller.

You have to record "Real Tracks" in real time so there is no difference there.

Of course with MIDI you can step-enter a part in a style but I never do that, it doesn't sound musical to me.

I use a lot of my own MIDI styles for that reason. I played all the parts into a MIDI sequencer in real time and then imported them into BiaB.

There are plenty of PG Music MIDI styles that are also well done (I wish had written some of them myself). I use these quite a lot as well.

I never use BiaB to play a melody or solo. Why? Playing solos or the melody is the most fun part for me, so why should I let the machine have all the fun?

At it's core Band-in-a-Box is the best auto-accompaniment program on the market. Auto-accompaniment is what BiaB started out as, new features have been added, expanding the capabilities of BiaB, but it still is primarily auto-accompaniment.

It's easier to change dynamics and other expressive devices on the comp parts than it would be if I tried to do that with the melody or solo.

One nice thing about playing melodies or solos into a sequencer in real time via MIDI is that if you hit a wrong note and keep going, you can fix the note without changing the expression of the part you played in.

On difficult parts, I'll practice them before recording until they are under my fingers. Occasionally even after practice I might flub a note or two, easy fix. I've learned to play with conviction and not be concerned about a wrong note or two.

Most of the time I get it right though, and sometimes I play too many wrong notes which means I just haven't practiced enough first - back to the woodshed.

I'm most particular when writing my styles. They get the most practice before recording and eventually inputting into the BiaB StyleMaker. It would really bother me to sell something with my name on it that I could have done better, so the extra time and work is a matter of pride.



I do preliminary work in Band-in-a-Box, export to a DAW, finish the work there, and never import back into BiaB. Why? Although I am a huge fan of BiaB and think it is a genius app, it has its limitations. There are things I can do in my DAW or MIDI Sequencer that won't go back into BiaB. One example would be ritardando and accelerando. BiaB can't do these subtle or sometimes gross expressive devices on a gradual basis (there are plenty of other examples).



I generate the parts first in BiaB, then export the very good BiaB music to a DAW and turn that very good output into something better.

I suppose you could do the same in RealBand, but I prefer single dedicated apps to multi-purpose ones. Not that either is better or worse, just personal preference.



Exactly!!!

Besides for pushing and delaying some beats to create a groove, there are also subtle things you can do like put the bass a couple of ticks in front of the kick drum to bring out the notes or a couple of ticks behind to bring out the thud of the kick drum. Move the crash cymbal a bit ahead for some aggression and so on.

BiaB styles are by their nature rather generic. They have to be. When I was new at writing styles, a customer asked for an Elvis Presley "Don't Be Cruel" style, so I wrote one. Trying to play that sequence, with it's signature guitar figure on another song just 'shouts' "Don't Be Cruel"

After exporting my BiaB song as a MIDI file, I can add any song-specific licks I want, change instrument sounds (that Rhodes might sound better as a Grand piano), move drum rolls around, change cowbells to ride cymbals (or omit them), add rit or accel and other tempo changes, change the inversion of some chords, add rhythmic kicks that the generic BiaB shot won't do, add an extended intro or ending, get rid of 3rds in "power chord" intervals, and a zillion other things that cannot be done with audio tracks.



IMO The best way to input horn parts is with a Wind MIDI controller. It takes a better keyboard player than I to get the subtle dynamics a horn player does naturally with breath. If they are just horn stabs or background sustain chords with little dynamics, I'll use the keyboard.

Same for drum parts. I use a drum controller.

I do this when I make my styles as well. Drum parts with a drum controller, wind instrument parts with a wind MIDI controller, keyboard parts with a keyboard MIDI controller, and so on.

There is more than one tool in my toolbox. Different music apps and different MIDI controllers. I try to use the most appropriate tool for the job.

In the years I've been doing this, I get better at it (practice eventually makes perfect).

And since it's music, it's all play.

If I wanted to listen to someone else's music I'd put on a CD or stream something. When playing with the music, the time passes too quickly as it does when I'm having fun.

Notes

Very well stated!

So, do you use guitar synth controllers and brass synth controllers?



Maybe. My floundering around on an instrument that I don't play could be a lot less musical, though. I wondered that back when I was working with a keyboard player who sequenced. I never felt that his bass parts sounded right. Too staccatto. He considered bringing in a guitar synth so that I could play the bass parts more "live", but that never materialized. However on a static bass part with 8th notes, I pointed out that his staccato notes generated from the keyboard would be much better served as legato into each other. He elongated the notes and the whole part grooved much better.



I agree, but often I'm putting together practice tracks for my students, with and without melody. The younger kids have a hard time understanding the Melody if it doesn't sound like it's the same instrument. If it's a uke, I can play it on the guitar, but being able to step-entet notes that sound like a uke would be easier.


I've often thought about that. In defiance to my old keyboardist's insistence of "garbage in,garbage out", why couldn't I play a part piece-meal, with rhythmic and dynamic conviction, but with a lot of my [*****]-up notes, and fix the notes later, as the phrasing and attacks are still preserved?



But then how do you get that better output back into BIAB as a style?



What about brass parts? Do you use a trumpet MIDI controller? I watched someone use the breath-control tube for a keyboard to get realistic horn parts in Beatles tunes a few years ago.

Same thought here. Keyboard players tend to play these on on keyboards and then quantize. My old keyboard player felt that the majority of the parts needed to be played in. However, he played them in on a keyboard, which seems to defeat the purpose.

<<< But then how do you get that better output back into BIAB as a style? >>>

BIAB generated tracks whether it's MIDI generated or RealTracks/RealDrums generated that have been edited and improved in a DAW can be returned to a BIAB project and replace the BIAB part or parts as User created Artist Performance Tracks (APT).

APT's can be whatever you create. APT's can be created from every sound media source recognized by BIAB.

The best way to get that better audio back into BIAB is simply import the audio back onto the Audio Channel and make the import permanent as an APT.

Here's a few reasons why and some Examples:

. An APT can be created from any single instrument, it doesn't matter if it's MIDI or RealTrack/RealDrum;
. An APT can be created with or without BIAB dynamics and plug-ins added;
. An APT can be created with volume settings, panning applied;
. An APT can be created from multiple BIAB Mixer Channels;
. An APT can be created from any BIAB Style;
. An APT created from multiple BIAB Mixer Channels can be any mixture of MIDI, MIDI Super Tracks, RealTracks, RealDrums, Samples, Loops, Live Audio and Pre-Recorded Audio;
. An APT can be created from a Channel using RealTracks can have up to 10 variations of RealTracks on that Channel;
. An APT, once it's created can easily be removed and the Channel returned to its prior state and instrument residing on the Channel before conversion to an APT;
. An APT automatically freezes the Track it's on from regeneration;
. An APT automatically saves a WAV or WMA file of the track exactly as it is at the time the Channel is converted to an APT;
. An APT automatically names the WAV or WMA file of the track;
. An APT automatically created WAV or WMA file can be imported into RealBand providing the ability to import 'Frozen' tracks that do not open when opening a BIAB song;
. An APT works with all versions, formats and years of BIAB that accept audio. (At least since 2014 releases)
. An APT is easy to share between collaborators regardless if the participants have different year and different model versions;
. An APT track retains volume settings, panning, dynamics and VST Plug-in data so Plug-Ins do not have to be reloaded into the project;