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#604936 - 07/03/20 06:49 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] advice plesae on mixing with newly diagnosed hearing loss [Resolved]
Registered: 09/21/01
Posts: 929
Loc: UK
Bob Calver Offline
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Registered: 09/21/01
Posts: 929
Loc: UK
today's hearing test shows i have normal hearing at 1k, mild loss (30db) at 2k and moderate loss (60db)at 4k with my right ear slightly worse at 8k.

i haven't noticed any problems listening to commercial recordings on phones or speakers and mixes i did a few years ago still sound right. no need to turn up the treble control on the hifi.

for every day use i will be fitted with hearing aids so that my wife's mumbling becomes intelligible speech but i need some help from the forum.

if i continue to mix (without hearing aids) on headphones and check on speakers, bearing in mind commercial recordings still sound good - and that's what i'll be aiming for - can anyone advise me? i haven't found a need to increase top end eq on any recent mixes so can anyone advise me? do i need to do anything different for my mixes to sound good to people without hearing loss?

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#604956 - 07/03/20 08:46 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: advice plesae on mixing with newly diagnosed hearing loss [Re: Bob Calver]
Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 20097
Loc: Mi., USA
rharv Offline
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Your loss of frequencies happened over time. So your brain had time to adjust .. there likely wasn't a sudden difference which would make a true comparison much easier.

A bit of a false comparison is that you are saying commercial music sounds fine and comparable to yours .. well yeah, it should, as you are listening to the commercial music with the same ears, so I would expect this result (see above) .. your brain has had time to adapt.

You didn't go into detail on the hearing aids you bought; do they adjust for your frequency deficiencies, or do they just make things louder?

I personally have a slight dip at 5-8 kHz (nowhere near the 30 dB you mentioned) .. but I am aware of it and use meters to visually make sure I don't over adjust 'for me'.

My best friend bought very expensive hearing aids that compensate for his frequency loss (much more severe than mine), which I've thought about doing, but over time I've realized his hearing aids may be 'over compensating'. So I offer no advice there.

Your best bet is probably to let other people listen to your stuff and get input, then guide yourself from this input with all things considered (including your known loss). And use meters to verify.

It ain't going to get better (hearing doesn't do that very well). But you certainly can learn to deal with it and adjust.
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#604958 - 07/03/20 08:59 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: advice plesae on mixing with newly diagnosed hearing loss [Re: Bob Calver]
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 20804
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
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Sorry to hear this, Bob.

I've made money for six decades transcribing music, and rely on my good ears. I have the 'father's family dip' in hearing mid-frequency, but only in one ear, so I guess I never notice a problem. My high frequency hearing is surprisingly good considering all the bands I've played in front of.

I think there is someone on this forum who is an audiologist. I was even about to guess it was rharv, and he gave some great advice. I'm sure you'll get some more thoughts.
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#604962 - 07/03/20 09:22 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: advice plesae on mixing with newly diagnosed hearing loss [Re: Bob Calver]
Registered: 04/24/16
Posts: 433
Loc: Ireland
Hugh2 Offline
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Registered: 04/24/16
Posts: 433
Loc: Ireland
Hi Bob,
I think TONAL BALANCE CONTROL From Izotope would help you greatly.
They have analyised thousands of Industry standard songs over all Genres and over all frequencies.So you pick a genre close to your song and it will tell you real time whether your song is lacking in one area of the frequencey spectrum or has to much in another area.You then adjust your song plugins to balance your mix out to an Industry standard level.This is good for everyone because you dont have to fully rely on your ears especially if you have great experience of what makes bassy sound and what makes high end etc .I really love this product also its amazing urs Hugh

https://www.izotope.com/en/products/tonal-balance-control-2.html

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#604976 - 07/03/20 10:23 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: advice plesae on mixing with newly diagnosed hearing loss [Re: Matt Finley]
Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 20097
Loc: Mi., USA
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 20097
Loc: Mi., USA
Matt,
I am not an audiologist.
I have consulted with a few, but .. my suggestion/advice should be taken with a grain of salt

Maybe you were thinking of RockStarNot, who is also not an audiologist, but works more in that field and could probably provide much more qualified/empirical advice than I ..
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#604982 - 07/03/20 10:49 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: advice plesae on mixing with newly diagnosed hearing loss [Re: Bob Calver]
Registered: 09/21/01
Posts: 929
Loc: UK
Bob Calver Offline
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Registered: 09/21/01
Posts: 929
Loc: UK
thanks for the advice so far but $199 for tonal balance control is out of my league. anyone know any alternatives?

updates as i go along and i'll keep you all informed. i have to wait for my audiology hearing fitting before i get full details of what the hearing aids will do and if they can be 'tuned' to simply boost the frequencies i am missing.

nice to know there are friendly people here!

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#604990 - 07/03/20 11:55 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: advice plesae on mixing with newly diagnosed hearing loss [Re: Bob Calver]
Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 6518
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Jim Fogle Offline
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Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 6518
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
There are hearing aids that use Bluetooth communication and smart apps to make real time setting adjustments. Some apps store presets for use in particular situations.
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#605012 - 07/03/20 02:49 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: advice plesae on mixing with newly diagnosed hearing loss [Re: Bob Calver]
Registered: 12/20/16
Posts: 942
Loc: Gold Coast, Queensland, Austra...
Teunis Offline
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Registered: 12/20/16
Posts: 942
Loc: Gold Coast, Queensland, Austra...
Hi Bob, worry not too much. Many people here have some form of hearing loss and lots of us wear hearing aids. I’ve had hearing aids for almost 40 years now. Slowly over time it got worse and tinnitus increased. However tools got better.

If I use headphones I cannot wear hearing aids. When I mix I use Izotope Tonal Balance Control and it helps. With hearing aids in I tend to get too bass heavy and Tonal Balance Control shows this.

I see you cannot justify Tonal Balance Control, never mind there are other good analysers that will do similar. Melda Productions analyser (Manalyzer) is quite good and has several presets that show roughly where a mix should be. Voxengo Span is another good analyser, takes a bit more getting to know however. Both the Melda and Voxengo analysers are free.

The Melda has a graph that shows where a mix should be according to the genre you’re mixing to as really the Tonal Balance Control does. The real difference is that Tonal Balance Control is a bit easier to follow IMHO.

Just some thoughts but worry not too much.

Take care
Tony.
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#605014 - 07/03/20 02:50 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: advice plesae on mixing with newly diagnosed hearing loss [Re: Bob Calver]
Registered: 10/09/16
Posts: 1058
Loc: Central Ohio
edshaw Offline
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Registered: 10/09/16
Posts: 1058
Loc: Central Ohio
The depth of knowledge and experience on this site never ceases to ......
So, Bob, does it help for people with no particular knowledge of audio
to simply listen to you songs and comment? If I knew what to listen for,
I'll help in any way I can.
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#605019 - 07/03/20 03:10 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: advice plesae on mixing with newly diagnosed hearing loss [Re: Bob Calver]
Registered: 09/21/01
Posts: 929
Loc: UK
Bob Calver Offline
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Registered: 09/21/01
Posts: 929
Loc: UK
thanks - this is getting better and better. one thing i do have is izotope elements suite and i gave the ozone elements it's first run today (i've not been seriously mixing for a while). it certainly seemed to liven up the mix i had. what i'm afraid of is overcompensating to make a mix seem right to me but not right for other people.

thanks for the advice on Manalyser and Span i'll see how they work. my new hearing aids will arrive shortly but my 'fitting' is not till the end of the month and i'm not sure what that entails. i presume the audiologist has programmed them to my particular needs.

i think i may be heading for two scenarios - firstly real life with hearing aids and musical life without hearing aids trusting to my ears as they are with help from meters and a double check from musician friends (and maybe forumites) on the final mixes.

these days playing live is mainly acoustic with friends so that will probably be with the aids in.

thank you all for your help and encouragement.

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#605022 - 07/03/20 04:07 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: advice plesae on mixing with newly diagnosed hearing loss [Re: Bob Calver]
Registered: 12/20/16
Posts: 942
Loc: Gold Coast, Queensland, Austra...
Teunis Offline
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Registered: 12/20/16
Posts: 942
Loc: Gold Coast, Queensland, Austra...
Bob, over the years I’ve had many pairs of Really expensive high end hearing aids. Most ended up in the bottom drawer or just under the socks. They were totally uncomfortable.

Here in Australia we olde pensioners get free hearing aids so I lined up yet again. The hearing aids I was given are external (behind the ears). These have a really small bit that go into the ear. Around the into ear part is a really soft plastic thing that holds them snug in the ear. They are totally comfortable, so much so they go in when I wake up and stay in most of the time. The biggest issue is they are that comfortable the risk of wearing them into the shower is there. Hearing aids do not cope with swimming or showering.

I do take them out when performing. I always did. They distort or actually cut out sounds over a certain level. You soon get used to the idea.

It is vital the aids are totally comfortable. Get comfort over looks and/or features is my advice.

Tony
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#605046 - 07/03/20 07:33 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: advice plesae on mixing with newly diagnosed hearing loss [Re: Bob Calver]
Registered: 12/27/13
Posts: 1976
Loc: St. Louis, MO. USA
sslechta Offline
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Registered: 12/27/13
Posts: 1976
Loc: St. Louis, MO. USA
Originally Posted By: Bob Calver
thanks for the advice so far but $199 for tonal balance control is out of my league. anyone know any alternatives?

Part of Hugh2's advice on how Tonal Balance works can be used in a manual way. Find a CD or online recording of a popular song that's in the same genre of what the song you're mixing is. When you start getting in the final parts of mixing, you can play that reference song and then yours and try and make the instrument balances and EQ of your song sound as close to the reference as possible. After you do a few rounds of tweaking you should be close to a good sounding song.
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#605114 - 07/04/20 06:56 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: advice plesae on mixing with newly diagnosed hearing loss [Re: Bob Calver]
Registered: 09/21/01
Posts: 929
Loc: UK
Bob Calver Offline
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Registered: 09/21/01
Posts: 929
Loc: UK
thanks for the new advice.

teunis, your aids sound like the ones i'm getting from the National Health Service. i'll be using them for day to day situations (although the videos they've sent me tell me i'll be delighted to hear things like birdsong again which i can hear perfectly!) do you find that your hearing has changed when you take them out? i'm happy with the way i've been mixing so far and with all the help i'm getting here that's how i'm going to continue. however the intro videos tell me that to get used to the aids will take about eight weeks while my brain 'retrains'. retraining to use the aids is fine but i don't want to retrain my brain to hear things differently without the aids.

do you hear the way you used to when you take them out?

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#605151 - 07/04/20 02:31 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: advice plesae on mixing with newly diagnosed hearing loss [Re: Bob Calver]
Registered: 12/20/16
Posts: 942
Loc: Gold Coast, Queensland, Austra...
Teunis Offline
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Registered: 12/20/16
Posts: 942
Loc: Gold Coast, Queensland, Austra...
Yep you’ll hear things you didn’t know still existed. Initially birds for example could even give you a fright. Traffic does become scary. Initially driving a car totally changed with speed being lowered. The thing I first noticed was the sound of my neck on the collar of my shirt. Most of this goes away very quickly.

But as was said earlier by someone else. The loss was probably fairly gradual and really did not have as much affect on mixing as you think. I mix with the aids in then take them out and also listen with headphones. I also realise most people I play to have significant hearing loss (a lot of them don’t know). I usually play to aged people.

Tony
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#605257 - 07/05/20 02:29 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: advice plesae on mixing with newly diagnosed hearing loss [Re: Bob Calver]
Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 9549
Loc: GA USA
Janice & Bud Offline
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Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 9549
Loc: GA USA
My hearing issues started 40 years ago. Too many concerts and festivals in the 60's and 70's. Too many band years. Too much stupid behavior using power equipment sans good hearing protection. An audiologist told me 9 years ago told me that my hearing loss was too profound in the upper frequencies to correct or even enhance. I got the impression she had been out of school for about 50 years or so smile

I'm stubborn so I sought out and eventually found an outstanding audiologist eight years ago. She's young, research oriented and on the cusp of technology. She was fascinated by my understanding of EQ, compression, etc. Together we worked out three custom programs for my aids. She's sorta taken me on as a research project! One of those three is just for mixing. I won't go into the details of it but I will say she changed my life. I hear birds, crickets, tree frogs, leaves crushing beneath my mountain bike tires AND I hear cymbals, rides, hi-hats well enough to mix. Without the aids I can't hear music well enough to bother turning it on and I would have to use close captioning on tv. So with that technology and, of course, Janice's golden ears (she can hear a humming bird peep when inside the house with the windows closed) I can mix, master and enjoy so many more things.

I only suggest that if you have a deficiency don't go cheap trying to improve it. Mail order aids and even aids from an audiologist who doesn't regularly work closely with you are at best minimally effective and at worst damn irritating.

Pardon the ramble.

Bud

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#606699 - 07/16/20 06:03 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: advice plesae on mixing with newly diagnosed hearing loss [Re: Bob Calver]
Registered: 09/21/01
Posts: 929
Loc: UK
Bob Calver Offline
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Registered: 09/21/01
Posts: 929
Loc: UK
quick update and another round of thank yous. my hearing aids have arrived and although my online consultation isn't till the end of the month, the instructions say to try using them if i feel confident.

as Teunis said some sounds i had forgotten or at least at the volume the aids now render them, mouse clicks being a good example.

having listened to old mixes with and without i wouldn't actually change much. the aids add a little 'crispness' but i'm not sure i'd change the basic mix. same with commercial tracks. anyway when i talk to the audiologist i'll check what the aids are programmed to do. if they simply compensate for the hearing loss frequencies well and good, but if they overcompensate i'll know that with the aids what i'm hearing is over toppy and will just mix as normal without.

but all is well so far and i'm very grateful for help and advice received to date

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#606711 - 07/16/20 07:59 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: advice plesae on mixing with newly diagnosed hearing loss [Re: Bob Calver]
Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 9549
Loc: GA USA
Janice & Bud Offline
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Posts: 9549
Loc: GA USA
As I mentioned there is much more to it than that ... at least for me. High end aids can be programmed in multiple ways to help you. Multi-band eq and compression, the left and right aid communicating via bluetooth, the ability to analyze the sonic environment and adapt and phone apps to let you change the program as needed. Only you know what sounds "right" and that requires communicating with an audiologist beyond simply boosting some high f and leaving it at that. A lot of audiologists tend to focus on manipulating variables that relates to speech. That's fine. But I need to hear a ride, a high hat, a kick drum click, vocal sibilance, the ring of a snare, squeaks on an acoustic guitar, etc.

Pardon the ramble...it's just that my audiologist literally changed my life. I suspect my loss is greater than yours so I can likely be ignored smile

Bud

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#606714 - 07/16/20 08:12 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: advice plesae on mixing with newly diagnosed hearing loss [Re: Janice & Bud]
Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 7262
Guitarhacker Offline
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Posts: 7262
Originally Posted By: Janice & Bud
As I mentioned there is much more to it than that ... at least for me. High end aids can be programmed in multiple ways to help you. Multi-band eq and compression, the left and right aid communicating via bluetooth, the ability to analyze the sonic environment and adapt and phone apps to let you change the program as needed. Only you know what sounds "right" and that requires communicating with an audiologist beyond simply boosting some high f and leaving it at that. A lot of audiologists tend to focus on manipulating variables that relates to speech. That's fine. But I need to hear a ride, a high hat, a kick drum kick, vocal sibilance, the ring of a snare, squeaks on an acoustic guitar, etc.

Pardon the ramble...it's just that my audiologist literally changed my life. I suspect my loss is greater than yours so I can likely be ignored smile

Bud


What aids are you using and what was the cost? I have high freq loss in the 4k range....and tinnitus in that same range. Sounds like crickets. I've never been bothered by the tinnitus. But it does mask the highs. I find I have to pay attention to my mixes lest they become too crispy on the top end for normal listeners.

Too many really, really loud bands, and gunfire without using the proper protections.

I just ordered a set of Axil buds..... good noise reduction and enhancement to 6x as well as bluetooth music from the phone. Can run either of the 3 modes or any combination. Figured I'd give it a try.
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#606761 - 07/16/20 04:25 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: advice plesae on mixing with newly diagnosed hearing loss [Re: Bob Calver]
Registered: 02/12/15
Posts: 112
Loc: OH - Ohio
DIOECHOOTO Offline
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Registered: 02/12/15
Posts: 112
Loc: OH - Ohio
Hi Bob!
Sorry about your hearing loss, I can relate. In fact, I got fit with my first aids at age 5, and I'm now 60. I'm sure no one remembers this as I don't frequent the forum very, ah, frequently...and here we are discussing sonic frequencies...but my handle stands for Deaf In One Ear Can't Hear Out Of The Other ...DIOECHOOTO

Aaanyhoo...lots of good advice here already, but I thought I would chime in, at risk of triggering some tinnitus...since I have had similar concerns over mixing.

I recently bought a new Focusrite Scarlett 2i2, and it came with a vst3 called "Balancer", and it's pretty cool because apparently it is programmed with some sort of AI that "learns" as you go. But in the end it's really just another spectral analyzer such as those that have already been recommended.

And this is what I really wanted to mention: the Focusrite interface I used previously was a Saffire, and it came with "mixer control" software that was really powerful, so powerful that I never learned to use even a small fraction of it's capability (nor did I have need to), but what I did use a LOT was this feature called VRM, virtual reference monitoring. What this supposedly does is change the characteristics of the sound as if it were being played through any of a large menu of setups. Studios setups with various monitors, bedroom studio, 1980's living room "stereo", Flat screen tv, boombox...you name it! I don't know how helpful it really was to me, but I do know it SEEMED very helpful to have that capability. What it allows is for you to hear your mix from all kinds of different perspectives, including from different places in "the room". Amazing.

So I don't know if there is anything else out there quite like that, but I really miss it, as it doesn't work with my new Focusrite.

I just thought I would put that out there, FWIW.

BTW My very small BTE (behind the ear) hearing aids do work with headphones on over them, they are quite comfortable and feedback is not a problem. Because they are digital I have a few different programs, and so for music I use a "pure" program that has no antifeedback or "speech algorithm" or noise reduction or anything (and yet they still don't feedback!), as part of feedback foiling program is it creates an oscillation, thus short circuiting the feedback loop, but it sounds crappy as it creates a tremelo effect. Any of those features could cause unwanted artifacts, as I understand it.

Happy music making, Bob!


Edited by DIOECHOOTO (07/16/20 04:27 PM)
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#606790 - 07/16/20 09:44 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: advice plesae on mixing with newly diagnosed hearing loss [Re: Bob Calver]
Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 7790
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
rockstar_not Offline
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Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 7790
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
Bob,

If you have your hearing loss curves, I have successfully set up some stacked 31 band EQ VST plug-ins for folks for them to listen with flat response headphones and with their hearing aids not in their ears.

I can show you how to do it, but you need a pretty decent pair of headphones. And a DAW that will allow you to put several instances of EQ VST in series.

Significant notches like the typical 4kHz gunfire noise induced loss are a little more difficult to deal with in this technique.

No promises on a miracle solution but I’ve helped several people with this in the past.

Hit me up with a PM if you want to get started.

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RealTracks Set 178: Dixieland - Medium Soloists
RealTracks Set 248: Oberkrainer! Folk Music From the Alps

Clarinet RealTracks Artists include:
James Danderfer
P.J. Perry
Thomas Oberreiter

Tutorial - Downloading and Installing Your Band-in-a-Box® Purchase

When you order your copy of Band-in-a-Box® from our website you'll receive the installation files to download your order, even if you're having it shipped!

You can access these files within the My Products section of your online account.

Downloading the program is such a convenient way to get started with Band-in-a-Box®! To learn more about how to download your purchase, please review the written tutorials we've created for Windows and Mac.

200+ Saxophone RealTracks for Band-in-a-Box®!

Where would music be today without the sultry sounds of the Saxophone? Fortunately, because of Adolphe Sax, we don't have to find out!

Today we celebrate his birthday, and with that a nod to our extensive collection of Saxophone RealTracks for Band-in-a-Box®!

Saxophone RealTracks sound so amazing that they were one of the first RealTracks we developed and released for the program with Band-in-a-Box® 2007! Now there are more than 200 Saxophone RealTracks available for Jazz, Rock, Blues, Country, Funk, and Pop!

Our Saxophone RealTracks Artists include:
Eric Alexander
Eric Marienthal
Gary Smulyan
Jack Stafford
Jim Clark
Mark Douthit
P.J. Perry
Phil Woods
Tom Keenlyside

Click on their name to be taken to their bio page where you can learn more about the artists and listen to demos of all their RealTracks.

Upgrading to Band-in-a-Box® 2020 is Easy!

Did you know... anyone who has owned a previous version of Band-in-a-Box® is entitle to upgrade pricing - you do not need to have your old version installed!

Maybe you used to own the Windows version, but you now have a Mac... that's not a problem either!
(or if you owned the Mac version, and now you have a Windows computer)

In both cases, you would purchase from the "Upgrade from 2018 or earlier or crossgrade" row here for a new Mac version, or here if you want the newest Windows version. Just need to upgrade your 2019 version? Use the "Upgrade from 2019/2020" row.

When you purchase your upgrade from either of these rows, you will receive a complete installation - just follow the steps of the setup, and your Band-in-a-Box® will be ready to use!

PG Music Inc. shopping cart accounts were not required to purchase from our website prior to October 29, 2014. With that in mind, you may have to create an account in order to upgrade - that's OK! You'll still be entitled to upgrade pricing.

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