You need to be logged in to post
Options
Index
#615290 - 09/16/20 03:11 PM [Off-Topic] A question about key signature
Registered: 07/10/15
Posts: 675
Loc: Miami, Florida
Planobilly Online   content
Journeyman

Registered: 07/10/15
Posts: 675
Loc: Miami, Florida
Why would a song be considered to be written in F# when no other chords in the song are in that key?

Example, White Rabbit by Jefferson Airplane. F# G F# G A C D A is the chord progression. The guitar solo is out of a F# minor scale more or less. That scale contains at least F# A and D.

It is pretty obvious what key something is in if it mostly stays in key. It is not so obvious when most of the notes are out of key.

Is this just a question of ease of writing in standard notation or first notes defines the key?

Thanks,

Billy

Top
#615292 - 09/16/20 03:16 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A question about key signature [Re: Planobilly]
Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3748
Loc: WV, USA
bobcflatpicker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3748
Loc: WV, USA
More knowledgeable folks will answer but I would say the beginning chord defines the key.
_________________________
Bob
................................
http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

Top
#615294 - 09/16/20 03:20 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A question about key signature [Re: Planobilly]
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 20460
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 20460
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
It can be all over.

Readability is my overriding goal.

Sometimes jazz composers write in C because it's too difficult to figure out what key is best overall when it modulates frequently. Just write with lots of accidentals in the notation.

Other composers change the key signature for the bridge etc. and back in the last verse.

But if I had to pick a key signature that would work best overall, I surely would not choose F# unless I had to.

Bob is right, sometimes the first chord of a song is the correct key signature. Unfortunately, this fails as often as it works.
_________________________
BIAB 2020 Win Audiophile & 2020 Mac UltraPak. Software: Cakewalk, Adobe Audition CC, Notion; Win 10 64 Pro. Hardware: custom i7 16 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Focusrite 18i20(2), TCE Finalizer, Behringer X-Touch, Adam sub & monitors.

Top
#615295 - 09/16/20 03:32 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A question about key signature [Re: Planobilly]
Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4909
Loc: Akron, Oh
eddie1261 Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4909
Loc: Akron, Oh
F# minor with a modulation to the 3, which in an F minor scale is an A natural. Because when it comes back to the verse it reverts back to the F# minor that is the home key.

If you want a study in modulation, listen to Sergio Mendez' Never Gonna Let You Go. It changes key 22 times.
_________________________
This signature left intentionally blank.

Top
#615299 - 09/16/20 04:30 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A question about key signature [Re: Planobilly]
Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 20018
Loc: Mi., USA
rharv Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 20018
Loc: Mi., USA
Like Eddie said, it works because of relative minors.
It changes from major to minor throughout the song.

The mysterious part is obviously the minor (F#)
Then when it goes to A it is an old classical move; go from relative minor to the major (adds mood like triumph, success etc)
Then revert back to the relative minor for the mystery effect again (or sad or however you perceive it in a given piece).

Point is it could be in either the key of F#(m) or A.
My training says instead of where it starts, in this situation look at where it ends.
One instructor told me in this particular minor/major situation to simply hit the right bass note when it ends.
In this case it would be the A .. but since it does technically start in F#m I wouldn't challenge it.
The chords want you to feel the minor/major change (the effect).

What makes this one interesting is the C and G chords, as these don't fit the basic scale and are a more unique change than the F#m to A in my opinion.

However neither is new
1-b3-4-1 is a common progression (A-C-D-A section; play that alone a few times and it becomes familiar) much like A-C-D-E ..

The half step modulation from F# to G isn't new either, but used in an unfamiliar way.
Combining the two creates a mood.
I actually wrote a song using F#m-G-F#m-Em (I added the Em at the end, but same effect basically).

As far as key, I can picture either being correct, but it would be F#m and not F# (implying major).

I like how this guy puts it -

Quote:
I often hear people discussing music theory as if it were a bunch of rules to be followed or broken. But to me this misses the point.

I like to compare music theory to gravity, and to ask people, “have you ever broken the law of gravity?” It’s a silly question and often gets silly answers, but I hope my point is clear: the law of gravity is not a rule to be followed or broken; it just is.

Like music theory, the law of gravity doesn’t tell you what to do, it merely tells you about cause and effect. Gravity doesn’t care whether or not you drop a rock you are holding; it just tells that *if* you let go of that rock, it will fall. You can choose whether or not to let go based on whether or not you want that rock to fall. Similarly, music theory doesn’t care whether or not you resolve a dominant chord to the tonic or not; if just tells you that *if* you resolve it that way, the result is satisfying in a particular way. You can choose whether or not to resolve it based on whether or not you want that particular sense of satisfaction.

Keep this in mind as you study music theory. No “rule” of music theory ever tells you what you must do; it merely helps you understand the effect of various different things you might try.


source - https://outsideshore.com/category/music-theory/


/just my thoughts on it
_________________________
Make your sound your own!

Top
#615303 - 09/16/20 04:48 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A question about key signature [Re: Planobilly]
Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3748
Loc: WV, USA
bobcflatpicker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3748
Loc: WV, USA
A good example of a song not necessarily being in the key of the first chord is "Sweet Georgia Brown".
_________________________
Bob
................................
http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

Top
#615304 - 09/16/20 04:50 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A question about key signature [Re: Planobilly]
Registered: 07/10/15
Posts: 675
Loc: Miami, Florida
Planobilly Online   content
Journeyman

Registered: 07/10/15
Posts: 675
Loc: Miami, Florida
Hey Matt...this may have been written in F# for no better reason than that was the first chord.

When the original demo was made none of these people played well enough and Sly Stone had to play all the instruments. Grace Slick did teach Jefferson Airplane how to play the song. She was married to the drummer.

The half step up or down is pretty common in any key. F# to G in this case. It is easy to hear and recognize.

The A C D A by it could be in the key of A but there is no C major in the key of A.

This song became very popular for a number of reasons, not the least of which was the fact that the singer/songwriter was a very good looking fashion model. Looking back it was a prototypical vision for the Haight Ashbury LSD drug culture.

It is still being used in 2020 in TV commercials and film.

Billy

Top
#615306 - 09/16/20 05:02 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A question about key signature [Re: Planobilly]
Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4909
Loc: Akron, Oh
eddie1261 Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4909
Loc: Akron, Oh
Originally Posted By: Planobilly
The A C D A by it could be in the key of A but there is no C major in the key of A.


Billy, pick up your guitar and play this progression.

C for 4 beats
Eb for 4 beats
F for 4 beats
Ab for 2 beats
Bb for 2 beats

Repeat a few times.

You are playing major chords with the notes of a C Aeolian (minor) scale as the roots.

There is no C in the key of A MAJOR. The keys of A have 7 modes. 4 of the A modes have a C natural in it. They just aren't the major flavor scales. Here's a chart. With an A as the root, 2,3,6 and 7 have a C natural.



Edited by eddie1261 (09/16/20 05:30 PM)
_________________________
This signature left intentionally blank.

Top
#615331 - 09/16/20 09:18 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A question about key signature [Re: Planobilly]
Registered: 07/10/15
Posts: 675
Loc: Miami, Florida
Planobilly Online   content
Journeyman

Registered: 07/10/15
Posts: 675
Loc: Miami, Florida
Thanks Eddie, I get what you are saying.

What I am saying is if you tell me we are playing in F# major and F# is the only triad used in the whole song, the key does not give me any useful information. Then if I have to sight read it everything becomes an accidental except the F#.

Top
#615365 - 09/17/20 05:43 AM [Off-Topic] Re: A question about key signature [Re: Planobilly]
Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4909
Loc: Akron, Oh
eddie1261 Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4909
Loc: Akron, Oh
Originally Posted By: Planobilly
Thanks Eddie, I get what you are saying.

What I am saying is if you tell me we are playing in F# major and F# is the only triad used in the whole song, the key does not give me any useful information.


Sure it does, and that's where a basis in theory comes into play. There are logical places to go from the root. Picking C for the easiest example, if your root chord is C, the logical next steps on that scale are the 4th (F), the 5th (G), the minor 2nd (Dm), the minor 6th (Am), and the major 3rd (E).

I wrote a song once as an exercise, in C, where the intervals of the notes never changed. So the chord progression was C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, G7 (with no G, just B-D-F) and then back to C.

But there's where it gets sticky. Those notes that I said made up the G7 are also the top 3 notes of a G#dim. So the theory purists would refer to that walk up a major scale as M m m M M m Dim M (octave).

So your starting chord really does give you a road map. Of course really interesting writing doesn't follow a formula. If it did every song would be so similar it would be boring. Just think of how many songs use that 1-5-6m-4 thing that Pachelbel wrote. These guys show this very well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pidokakU4I&ab_channel=random804
_________________________
This signature left intentionally blank.

Top


PG Music News
Band-in-a-Box® Country Music Add-ons!

Happy International Country Music Day!!!

You might not think of Band-in-a-Box® as a country music making machine, but you'd be surprised... there are OVER 850 Country RealTracks available!

See (hear?) the Country songs created by Band-in-a-Box® users when you check out the Band-in-a-Box® Radio playlists Country/EZ Listening/Folk 1 and Country/EZ Listening/Folk 2.

Feeling inspired to create your own Country song in Band-in-a-Box®? Pop into the RealTracks Picker and create your own custom country band by filtering for "Country" or choose an existing Country style within the StylePicker Window by choosing a "Country" Filter String (from the drop down menu).

Band-in-a-Box® 2020 French for Mac is Here!

Band-in-a-Box® 2020 apporte plus de 50 nouvelles fonctionnalités ! Des améliorations ont été apportées aux RealTracks (RealTracks vocales au son plus doux, Epaississement des RealTracks, fonctions RealTracks "Trouver un Subs" et Multiriffs). La majorité des RealDrums dispose maintenant de RealCharts (avec une notation Drums précise). Le nouveau navigateur d'artistes RealTracks permet la recherche d'informations/bios/liens/listes sur artistes RealTracks. Le nouveau navigateur de fonctions permet à l'utilisateur nouveau ou "tête en l'air" de trouver et d'utiliser facilement la plupart des fonctionnalités/raccourcis/documents à partir d'une seule fenêtre. L'égalisation du tempo permet de changer un morceau rubato enregistré en un tempo fixe. L'étirement audio temps/pitch a été amélioré (Elastique inclus). Il y a des améliorations un peu partout dans le SongPicker, les Intros automatiques avec Basse/drums ou drums seuls, l'extension du nombre de titres avec + 3.400 titres nouveaux, MusicXML, la guitare avec vues "gaucher" et "élève", la fonction glisser-déposer, l'affichage multi-fenêtres de l'Assistant Accord Audio et bien plus encore !

ACHAT / MISE À JOUR, & TÉLÉCHARGEMENT MAINTENANT!

Get Inspired with the Band-in-a-Box® Title Generator!

There can be many triggers that could inspire you to write a song... but what if you're wanting to write a song, and are having trouble finding the inspiration you need?

Jump start your creativity using the Title Generator feature in Band-in-a-Box®.

I love this feature - it delivers some beautiful results!

To access this feature:

Mac: select Edit | Chords | Auto-Generate Song Title menu command (control+shift+S). The song title will appear in the Title window! Repeat the Auto-Generate Song Title command until the program comes up with a suitable title for your song. Band-in-a-Box® will keep generating new titles for as long as it takes to get the right one.

Windows: click on the "Generate Title" button within the main screen of the program and you can choose to "auto-generate" a song title which will appear right in the Title field of your song, or for a more varied selection choose to "generate multiple titles" and you'll be taken to the Title Generator window, which can generate a list of 50 song titles for you!

I've just done this, and won't bother list all 50 here - but the "top 10" I've chosen from my generated list are:
Eloquent Laugh
Statuesque Luck
Considering a Rainbow
Brief Fling, Acknowledged
Something for a Sandpiper
Happy Runaround
Cheatin' Skies
Then Came a Rose
The Mention of My Love
Eternal Raincheck

Give it a try!

The resource for this feature can also be edited, allowing you to customize the results.
(to do this, review the file TITL1.TXT within the BB Data folder.)

Band-in-a-Box® - Loops-with-Style PAK Video Tutorial

Wondering how to use the Loops-with-Style PAKs in your songs?

Check out our latest video, where we explain installing Loops-with-Style PAKs, locating the content within the proram, and how to use them in either in Band-in-a-Box® or in other DAWs - Watch the video...

Learn about the Styles included, applying the Loops, how the Loops will work with your song settings, using these Loops in other DAWs, and more!

Note: this video was made using the Windows version, however the steps are the same for Mac.

Share Your Love for Band-in-a-Box®!

Want everyone to know how much you enjoy Band-in-a-Box? Submit a Video Testimonial today, and when we share it on our website and YouTube channel, we'll send you a FREE Band-in-a-Box® UltraPAK hard drive!

Check out some of the great Video Testimonials we've already received here.

For more information on this offer, click here.

Band-in-a-Box® 2020 German for Mac is Here!

Es gibt über 50 neue Funktionen in Band-in-a-Box® 2020! Es gibt Verbesserungen der RealTracks (weicher klingende Vokal RealTracks, RealTracks Verdickung, "Find-a-Sub" RealTracks und MultiRiffs). Die meisten RealDrums haben jetzt RealCharts (mit genauer Drum-Notation). Es gibt einen neuen RealTracks-Künstler-Browser, um Infos/Bios/Links/Listen von RealTracks zu allen Künstlern zu finden. Ein neuer Feature-Browser ermöglicht es dem neuen oder "vergesslichen" Benutzer, die meisten Features/Hotkeys/Dokumente von einem einzigen Fenster aus leicht zu finden und zu benutzen. Die Funktion Tempoausgleich ermöglicht es, einen aufgenommenen Rubato-Song in ein festes Tempo zu ändern. Verbesserte Audio-Zeit/Tonhöhen-Dehnung (Elastique) enthalten. Es gibt SongPicker-Verbesserungen, Auto-Intros für Bass/Drums oder nur Drums, 3.400 zusätzliche Titel, MusicXML-Verbesserungen, "Linkshänder"- und "Studentensicht"-Gitarre, Ziehen & Ablegen -Verbesserungen, Audio-Akkord-Wizard mit mehreren Fenstern und mehr!

KAUF/UPGRADE, & DOWNLOAD JETZT!

With Band-in-a-Box® Your Band is MASSIVE!

Open Band-in-a-Box®, and you're instantly gaining access to at least 300 different RealTracks played by real live musicians!

There's more than 140 Artists that contribute to the 2,900+ RealTracks available! Our RealTracks and RealDrums Artists are top studio musicians, and the RealTracks they play will add an amazing human element to your projects!

Now is a great time to have these musicians handy!

-----

Band-in-a-Box® Pro includes over 300 RealTracks in 100 bands! Windows | Mac
Band-in-a-Box® MegaPAK includes over 500 RealTracks in 300 bands! Windows | Mac
Band-in-a-Box® UltraPAK includes over 2,900 RealTracks! Windows | Mac
Band-in-a-Box® UltraPAK+ includes over 2,900 RealTracks! Windows | Mac
Band-in-a-Box® Audiophile Edition includes the uncomplessed files for over 2,900 RealTracks! Windows | Mac

Learn more about using RealTracks in your Band-in-a-Box® projects: Windows | Mac

Forum Stats
32847 Members
68 Forums
66157 Topics
561802 Posts

Max Online: 2537 @ 01/19/20 07:09 AM
Newest Members
live the dream, ROCQK, faturner, AveryT, Hans Franz 12

32847 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
eddie1261 170
VideoTrack 150
Janice & Bud 127
Planobilly 126
Pipeline 124
MarioD 122
Al-David 113
Matt Finley 111
floyd jane 101
rayc 97
Today's Birthdays
George Leering, Jeeep, knutschke