PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box for Windows BIAB 2021?

Any ideas whats likely/new/Proposed yet?

I'm still using 2019 and don't want to upgrade to 2020 yet with December looming.

What's everyone's thoughts?

Usually in the first 2 weeks of December.

PG Music does not announce new features in advance, so any comments here about that would just be guesses.

If history holds, and there is no guarantee of that, Steve’s timetable is reasonable.

Same here.i think I missed loads by not buying 2020 but empty pockets y'know.
Looking forwwrd to what's up for 2021.
W

I went from 2014's equivalent of Pro to 2019's Mega to 2020's Ultra.

Recently, there's been a 49PAK Bonus available each year.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but, while previous Xtra Styles packs, for example, are available for purchase, I don't think previous 49PAKs are. I believe that their contents may eventually work their way into future versions of BiaB, but I'm not sure.

So, most previously released content is available for purchase one way or another.

Maybe re-generate selected bars only.
Maybe more tracks.
Maybe Count-In based on actual time-signature of first bar (and Song Settings Count-in) (and RealDrums Count-in Vol adjust).
Maybe a VST to sync the main Biab app to your DAW.
Maybe chord/scale note colors in Piano roll.
Maybe use keyboard styles .sty .prs etc..
Maybe midi chord track for Virtual Instruments and drag export with chord name markers.
Maybe 24Bit Audiophile version option.

So what are you hoping for ?

I don't think this has been definitively established. I think you are right, though.

Pipeline laid out a number of possibilities, but the one thing that people have been asking for since I started using BIAB some 20 years ago is to have more than 4 chords in a measure. It would be a game changer to get that.

I was just thinking the 2021 threads should be starting soon, and here we are already.
My prediction is that there will be "50 new features".

Vintage

I'd be more pleased to see a number of existing identified bug issues resolved in preference to a stack of new features. That would really count as product improvements to me.

To add the the excellent list above:
Maybe inclusion of count-in based on a user-defined local song setting rather than a global setting (always or never).
Maybe improved delivery of the multi-riffs feature, keeping selection and control totally within BiaB without having to go to audio level (more like the way RealBand provides this).

This has been such a rough year that I suspect that there might just be 49 new features in BIAB 2021.

Don may be on to something with his "49 new features" (tongue in cheek) but perhaps PGMusic will feel sorry for us having to put up with Covid-19 and give us a bonus, as in "51 new features"!

As for what features users would like to see, you may want to review what happened after the BIAB 2020 release, as discussed in this thread:

https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=579396&Searchpage=2&Main=81526&Words=Lloyd+S&Search=true#Post579396

There I listed what I could find of the "50 new features", and we discussed whether any of them were a direct result of entries from this site's Wishlist forum.

There are folks here who look forward with great anticipation to the 100 or 200 new RealTracks, and aren't too concerned about the new features at all. And there are those (me included) who would rather see more of the users' Wishlist features implemented, with less emphasis on RTs.

I guess PG tries to strike a balance.
My thought is, if you can't create a good BIAB song file with the 1000+ RTs we already have, chances are you won't be able to create a better one with 2000!

Just my 2¢ (CDN) worth!

LLOYD S

Re-generate selected bars within BB.
Less messy Multi riff.
More RDs please.

I am one of those "really happy with how BIAB is working" people.

I look for the new Real Tracks!

...Deb

Absolutely.

Looking forward 2,got a few quid spare as well!!! Lol

Thanks for that.Great ideas.

Lol and maybe some different types of Genres in Real Tracks maybe?

Great!

Thanks Everyone for your comments.
I have a foot in Both Camps and would like to see Improvements with the Bug Issues and a more Productive Workspace as well as new styles/More Musical Genres (maybe some fusion based). I like to Import certain tracks into my DAW to use with my/others compositions so maybe tighter integration with Studio One/all Daws.
Personally i find in new releases a lot of very similar type Rt's and styles that have already been released (especially in Country and Jazz). Only my opinion though!

Maybe generate midi drums from Realdrums.

More mixer tracks for me. 16 total, to shut me up. I would only upgrade for that, happily letting go of the rest 47 or 49 features.

We already have that from a large percentage of our RealDrums. You can see which ones have that by looking at the RealDrums picker - any of them where the # starts with Ntn has MIDI notation, which can be exported to a MIDI file through the main BB app or through the DAW plugin.

Deb, I hear you. I am kind of with Trevor as well. I would love to see long term bugs fixed a few of the cool ideas Pipeline mentioned maybe less new features and more focus on RTs, and really cool function features. Simon mentioned RT drum charts. A few more of those, keep that rolling.

The more I think about it,buying 2021 will largely depend on how much new stuff is for people who want it to remain K I S S.
If 2021 is packed full of clever techy-techy for the computer literatti at that expense then I'm probably going to pass.
W

Valid points, and worthy of consideration. My hope is that lots of problems that have already been reported will be resolved. More important than a stack of new features in my view, but of course YMMV.

I've been on the 2 year program for the past few times. I stay on the even number years. 2020 was my last purchase and I'll buy again next year for the 2022 version. Spreads the money out a little nicer and I'm not waaaay behind on versions.

That seems like a good plan.
I passed on 2020 because nothing in the "Fab Fifty" was particularly compelling for me, and RTs in the categories I use were mainly just more of the same. Your 2 year idea would work.

Vintage

I'm here for the RealTracks! I would prefer they leave the program alone and not introduce any new buggy features. Just do what they do better than anyone...RealTracks!

1++++++++* with John cubed! Well said

To add fix a couple nagging issue skip the 50 newbies features and give us a huge load of RTs and maybe some new RDs

If my memory serves me right, I did a calculation a few years ago and it didn't really work out that cheaper to upgrade every other year, think it was about $40-$50 at max.

I think the whole program could be considered fully mature at the moment, so many realtracks and other stuff, had a look at the GB it occupies and it was 176, that's the 2020 version

But as the same time most users do look forward to what is in the latest offering when it is released in Dec usually.

There usually is a countdown to what people think what date it will be, and I can't see this year being any different

Maybe arrow keys to choose styles at the StylePicker. So I could navigate thru the Styles with the arrow keys, while listening them by clicking on the button Play.

If I recall, an older version had this feature. I selected a Style once and then could navigate the Styles with the up and down arrow keys.

I'd upgrade to Audiophile in a heartbeat IF it was 24 bit OR if it was a bit cheaper. I don't need the hard drive, I can download it!

Also, more than 4 chords in a bar would be great, although I wonder how that would work with RealTracks.

The RealTracks should handle the more than 4 chords, but all the old code would need changing throughout I would imagine
Some new skins/themes would be good.

Frankly, I would love to see a 24-bit/96k version of BIAB. 24-bit to make it sound less "flat." 96k to make the stretching have fewer artifacts.
I already use the audiophile version, and even stretching the wav files has plenty of chirping going on.

But I know that would take a massive revamp on the back-end, and I'm guessing that nothing was originally recorded above what it's currently at, but that's my wish list.

Oh, and the ability to do chord settings in the VST. I don't understand why I can make bar changes in the VST plugin, but I can't do rests, holds, or pushes in the VST.

This is an interesting idea, one I haven't heard here to my knowledge: increasing the sample rate to lessen stretching artifacts. I hope that is technically correct about how the stretching algorithm works; we don't know.

Again I'm not sure, but from something I vaguely remember, that may not be true. The original recordings might be at a higher bit rate. It's another good question.

I converted some RealTracks to 48kHz/24bit and they worked fine in the Mac version but not Win.
Yes I think they were recorded at higher than 44.1kHz

Upsampling tracks would certainly work at least the same as long as the program can read them. I think the question being asked is, will they work better for stretching if they were originally recorded at higher bit and/or sampling rates?

I'm sorry if I'm saying what you already understand, but it definitely should improve the sound quality, simply because there will be more "meat on the bone", so-to-speak.

When you stretch a 44 or 48k file from 120 BPM to 100 BPM, for example, the samples have to spread out, and the software has to fill in the gaps. The more you stretch, the more it has to create. This causes artifacts.

Now when you have a 96k file, you have twice as many sampling points, so the software has half of the amount of space it needs to fill in, causing far fewer artifacts.

The same should apply to the pitch shifting as well: The frequency changes affect the distance between sampling points. More samples, less artifacts.

Thank you, MovingAir. I completely agree with you in theory.

Moving to 24-bit would require a larger external hard drive, as 24-bit files are 50% bigger than 16-bit files. Our ~1.5TB of files in an Audiophile edition would end up being ~2.3TB. I'd personally love a 24-bit Audiophile myself.

Downloading is still not on the table yet, given the file size. We've sold thousands of copies of BB 2020 Audiophile, so that would be in the order of petabytes of data transfer for our file servers if we had it downloadable. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a downloadable Audiophile edition happen, for our customers who live in countries where we can't ship to. Perhaps lossless compression could come into play there, but I imagine there would need to be some backend programming done in BB to make that happen.




24-bit 96K would be even bigger! Our 1.5TB would suddenly become ~4.9TB of files! Again, I'd personally love a 24/96 BIAB, but storage and transfer become an even bigger issue that way.





I don't know what rates the RealTracks were recorded at, but almost certainly many of them were recorded at 44.1khz. Upsampling a native 44.1khz won't necessarily make it easier to stretch, as technically there's some stretching going on to take 44.1k samples and interpolate them up to 48k or 96k etc, so I can't imagine there would be any sonic benefit in doing that. Now if the native files were at a higher sample rate, that's totally different, but given space requirements I don't personally expect that to happen in the near future. That said, I'm not in the development team so really anything could happen there.

Toontrack ships a 250gig 48kHz/24bit USB 3.0 drive for Superior Drummer 3.
I think some of the originals may have been recorded @ 44.1kHz/16bit but I asked for 48/24 maybe 10 years ago so I think that would of at least got them to start recording @ a higher rate.
You could put a column for the recorded rates in the RealTrack/RealDrums pickers maybe ?

My hope is for the 2021 Band-in-a-Box for Windows manual to be a completely revised manual.

Yes, that would get quite sizable. What about an option to ship BIAB on a 3.5" internal drive that people can install into their computer, rather than a more expensive external drive? I always transfer it onto an internal drive anyway. Then you could put it on a 4TB HDD for the same cost as what you're probably paying now for the 2.5" external drives.

This would also save HOURS of transfer time for someone like myself. Food for thought.

+1 4TB 3.5" internal drive
Not sure what the shipping weight difference would be ?

This assumes that the user has the capability to install an internal drive, has the power supply to run it, and is not using a laptop.

But I would go with that as an optional purchase.

PG do a great job but i'd like 2021 to work right straight out of the box. with 2020 we're still getting patches in October.

250gb of 24/48k stereo audio translates to around 241 hours of audio, assuming the drive is 100% full and only contains audio files - they actually advertise only 230gb of audio content, so it's more like 221 hours. Band-in-a-Box has 3,100 hours, hence the 2tb drive for 16/44.1k.




An internal drive is definitely not happening - can you imagine requiring the average user open up their computer to install a hard drive? Like MarioD mentioned, most of our users are running laptops, so that wouldn't be possible anyway. We could theoretically use a 3.5" external drive, but that would require an external power supply for it.

External 2.5" 4tb drives already cost about the same as a 3.5" 4tb internal anyways, so it wouldn't make much difference in price.




A 3.5" drive weighs 1.3lb vs a 2.5" drive weighs 0.3lb.




Even being optional and with numerous disclaimers, some customers who don't have the capability or necessary hardware to install an internal drive would still end up buying it, and then we would have to try to support these customers. Definitely not happening.

US $7.02/ea

I would appreciate having the choice of a large internal drive I could install. Then, perhaps every other year or every two, a downloadable patch or a flash drive. I’ve built all my own PCs since 1983; PG Music can’t offer a way to get updates that I cannot work with. I suspect more than a few others here are quite capable with any kind of update technique. Choice is good.

I agree, many 'power users' could take good advantage of this option.
A simple checkbox like "I know what I'm doing and have the connections" during purchase could alleviate most support issues .. I simply copy/update the new external to an internal drive anyway.

Adding/replacing/updating an internal drive is not a problem for many of us, and if the alternative is adding a caddy option to accommodate the new drive itself, not a big deal either these days.

Just my thoughts ..

4TB 3.5" Internal Hard Drive Purchase Option.
JUST DO IT !

I've had more 2.5" drives fail than 3.5", the last Seagate 2.5" 2TB Audiophile drive I got failed before I had a chance to copy it to an internal.
You know how long I've been at this, trying to get PG out of the past ?
It's like there's deep state blocking it all the time.
Don't wait another 10 years to see the light then do it.
Sorry guys but I'm just worn out from it all these days

I sincerely doubt we will ever have the option for a 4tb internal drive, for many reasons. First and foremost being the non-power users who don't have the capability of installing a hard drive - and for power users who do, they will have the skills necessary to buy a large internal drive and copy BB to it themselves.

Likely what will happen is we'll move to 4tb 2.5" external drives when we need to. We're currently at 1.51tb for the largest possible BB install (on Mac), so we don't need to switch to a 4tb yet.

So that gives us no HOPE at all, thanks.
But hey, just go back through the forum and you will see what happens, 10 years is usually the lag time from going over the heads until the light is seen.

Simon, I want to thank you for engaging in this thread and sharing information and your opinion. I may disagree on a point, but as I do not see the big picture, I respect your reasoning and have confidence the company will continue to assess the needs of the customers and respond accordingly.

See that's the problem, if you get new blood in they have to be loyal to the old guard and keep it in the past.
If I worked for PG I would have to do the same, that's why I couldn't do it, I couldn't be honest and give constructive criticism, I would have to limit and constrain myself into the 90's.
The Biab Plugin is a prime example, I pushed for that years ago and when it was finally released as beta I said don't release this as it will be a flop because there are too many issues and it's not working how it should. I FELT all the disappointment of users, and that hurt.
Then I spent years nagging trying to get it right (and that too was a massive fight, and just to get industry standard solo/mute buttons)
If it was just Adar listening to the users (like Attila does below in the RapidComposer forum) and being able to work on the BBW4 code it would be way ahead, like I mean WAY ahead, but he is so restricted, I couldn't do that I'd go crazy .

So, should I bother anymore or just give up ??
because it really does take a lot out of me.
I don't have shares in PG so I'm not doing it for myself.

Simon,
I disagree with this:
"I sincerely doubt we will ever have the option for a 4tb internal drive, for many reasons...."
"Ever" is very slippery word.

24 bit Audiophile anyone?

I hope that mr.G. sees this issue more openly.

External cases are dirt cheap. If I had a say beyond forum I would encourage to offer UltraPack and Audiophile on a customer choice of HD.

a) Outgoing, but cheap external spinner or
b)SSD shipped in external "usb" case, for those who do not want to tinker with stuff, but still want a fast / reusable HD.

With upgrades, I would offer an option of just new content on Flash drive. I believe, even Audiophile does not add more than 256G yearly, so I would offer exactly that, a 256GB (Usb3.1) flash drive with just new yearly content...

Yes, price point will change "somewhat" for those who would want SSD, but folks (and I am sure quite a few users) will see it as investment.

P.S. I think a 2TB SSD should be "enough" for next few years (until 4tb becomes more affordable), unless 24bit is coming soon

As a member of the old guard, and presumably the object of your comment, I think a few statements are in order. First, I hope I have never objected to your suggestions for improvement, nor anyone else’s. I do ask for clarification a lot, but when I don’t support a suggestion I just ask that the developers make the new feature a choice so I can work the way I think best for me.

Second, I support having choices, including a large internal drive. As was mentioned above I’m willing to check a box when ordering that says I know how to install it.

Third, I was taught that you catch more flies with honey. What use will it serve to chase away a PG music staffer who is willing to converse with users and share his opinions? He needs to feel comfortable interacting with us and being honest. I already stated I disagree with this one opinion but I can respect it at the same time. Will he come back here? I hope so. This has nothing to do with being old guard.

Fourth, I truly love and respect all the terrific suggestions of those who are new to this forum. But those newcomers should not presume that their ideas may not have been discussed years or even decades before. We all have our own style, and mine produces results, if slowly. Let’s keep things positive here and show the company we support them even if we disagree with their approach on occasion.

Opinion ? the not is in bold type, that's way more than an opinion, that's an executive position.
Old guards keep thing in the past, if you see yourself as an "old guard" then that's what they do, they guard things from being changed, forever.
"Seeing the Light" is exactly that, seeing the light, if you can't see the light it does not mean the light is not there.
As I keep saying I see users come over the many years, suggest things because of their frustration only to get jumped on and got rid of by long time forum members, and then they never return as you can see by their post numbers, yet they saw the light and told the truth.

confidence ?? I'll be dead and gone before that happens, honestly.
Now that is the VERY thing that has enabled PG to stay in the past.
If you can't SEE that PG has been stuck in the past, then you are out of touch and IN the past, it is now 2020 not 1990.
I think most companies that started around the same time as PG are way ahead and up to date in development.
I honestly think it's all too deep seated to change.
If those that have tried in the past have been got rid of, I can't see much HOPE.
That's why I ask "So, should I bother anymore or just give up ??"

On the topic of 3.5" HDs: Just to clarify, there was no 'executive decision' made on this topic, so you should view it as a discussion.
Also, you might recall, we actually did ship 3.5" drives with an enclosure and power supply for some time, many years ago before high capacity 2.5" drives became practical/widely available.

Pipeline,
I agree with some (if not most) points you made, but I am giving a huge credit to PG team for past 2 years of improvements. I am lucky to see the growth spurt happening right since I joined...But, I can see exactly what you are talking about too. I am confident that software part can be tuned right. If I had to guess, there is only about 5-7 BIG requests, other things are just touch ups... and most of these big requests are not science fiction. RT content is phenomenal! It is not an easy time for most of us. Main thing now for PG to pull through this havoc.

Andrew,
I think, having a small stock of 2.5 SSDs and having an option to purchase SSD instead of spinning hard drive is a very good idea. By default, SSD's can be shipped USB "cased" to avoid "misunderstandings". Those who want to use these internally or any other way, they would be able to do so with ease

THANKS ! yes you are both right. HOPE thanks !
I remember the Audiophile drive being 3.5" it was that shiny black enclosure with the little fan. It was USB 2.0 so I took it out of the enclosure and put it in the PC.
An yes there have been good changes in the last few years, there was a lot of resistance by PG to go 64bit but Apple forced the 64bit version of Biab we now have.
Let's not stop, more HOPE PLEASE.
48kHz/24bit should not have to be forced by Apple, it should be available now.
Sorry I am just shell shot from years at it. Positive things lift me up, negative things get me down, and God knows we all need positive things now.

And here is one a wise man just gave me

that is so true and PG needs to ask why.

I will give another example.
I went to the Ardour forum trying to get them to add GUI scripting so I could port ReaTrak into it as they have extensive Lua bindings for Lua scripting (thanks to Robin over there !), though you can only choose from 9 at a time, but anyway it turned into a huge fight with the old guard, same in the Mixbus forum, so I gave up.
You just need to compare the number of Reaper users, and Reaper was released a year after Ardour and 100 years after Biab, look in the forums. Reaper like Winamp is made for users to tweak it how they like (and how popular was WinAmp ?) but to do that that with Ardour you need to know C++ and compile it.
Maybe Justin had that problem with the old guard so decided to build his own DAW. You don't get old guard in the Reaper forum blocking things from happening, same in RapidComposer.
PG and Ardour(even being free) needs to ask why is Reaper more popular, has Justin seen the light ?

Isn’t Reaper still free?

Reaper was never free. For non-professional use $60 for two primary revision versions. But, and this is a big but, they don't lock their product in any way or restrict beyond a 6 sec nag screen reminding you that the 60 day introduction period has elapsed. This has been the subject of much controversy over the years. Similar to PGMusic, it is the way the owner wants it to be done.

YES ! it could have an installer that would update the Audiophile drive with the new Biab/RB/Plugin/RealTracks/Drums/SMT/Loops/Styles/Demos and any of the old RT/RD that have been fixed/updated.

This is Rustyspoon's modern 2020 thinking BiabVST Plugin example, that's seeing the light:

I don’t find any Forum Topic for User Wishlist so I add mine here.

I would like to request a new function “user interface/menue” to be added to BIAB 2021 to provide a simple “Strum Machine” with basic and simple functions like the “Strum Machine” https://strummachine.com/.

It ought to be trivial to add a function like that in BIAB.
It might also to be a good opportunity to bring back/in users of the Strum Machine into BIAB.

I have received some suggestions here on the forum on how to use BIAB as a strumming machine but I don’t get it to sound like I want to. It does not sound as I want it to sound and it is too complicated.

I just want very basic guitar strumming as backing to my practicing (as in the Strum Machine”) and I find most RealTracks to complex.
I think there may be many users who would like to have an option like that. Some comments from users of the Strum Machine is that they have moved over from Band in a Box to Strum Machine because it is too complicated in BIAB.

(yes I know I could put in the chords and look up a style and deselect the instruments I don’t want and change the instruments to what I want but I never get it to sound as I want. The playing is too complex. I want a much simpler sound/playing like the Strum Machine see link above).

Hi Shlind

There is a User Wishlist available, at this location.

You may also consider posting there.

I suggested that in the RapidComposer forum and it was just added in a short time.
RapidComposer Strum Pattern Generator can generate just about any strum you need on your virtual guitar, it can combined finger picking and strumming to patterns that can be saved and use over any chord progression, you can set the mutes to any keyswitch or velocity. The keyswitches are saved with the patterns.
RapidComposer also has a VST version that can be used in Biab.
Patterns can be shared with other users. It will import BB Chord Output track, you can fill the track with the same pattern.

But sure if PG made one for Biab it would be great.
Full Screen Pic

Speaking of external storage, this came through my in box this morning:

https://www.wish.com/feed/xparam-5f8b723...3&share=web

Just sayin' ...
LLOYD S

(In case the link doesn't work, it's a USB3.0, 2TB thumb drive for $23.74)

Newest USB 3.0 Flash Drives Metal USB Flash Drives Disk Memory OTG U Disk for Laptop PC 2 Colors
$23.74

That's a terrible lot of bytes for a thumb drive, that would bring the price and shipping right down !

You usually get what you pay for. Just sayin'.

I wouldn't pay $2.50 for a 2TB anything off of wish.com. Not worth the headache.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Speed-USB-3-0-Flash-Drive-2TB-U-Disk-External-Storage-Memory-St-snNNN/363130939162?
Note:
This item is upgraded by 32 GB Pen Flash Drive to 2TB
32 GB = aproximadamente 28GB-30GB
32GB-2TB, the actual capacity is 32G, the computer displays 2TB, the detection is also 2TB, more than 32G things can be stored, but not displayed.

This is the real deal:
$999.95
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2TB-Kingston-DataTraveler-HyperX-Ultimate-GT-USB3-0-Flash-Drive-never-used/254739494174?

2tb flash drives... we are still at least 3-4 years from affordable+reliable choices.

This one is one of the best and somewhat affordable options today:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/383286127396

It is not quite as small as that flash drive that Pipeline mentioned, but about 1/2 size of 2.5" external SSD drives. Super fast.

It's most likely a fake. Most cheap flash drives and SD cards are faked to look like they're a much larger capacity than they are. There's a reason the Kingston 2tb stick was well over $1000 when it was introduced not too long ago.

I'd still be happy with a 4TB internal 3.5" 7200 RPM HHD option holding all those sweet, sweet, 24/96 tracks. I don't know if that's simpler/more cost-effective than putting together a thumb drive with audiophile updates or not, but regardless, I'd still be happy with it.

If you want 96 you would need more T's
a 3min stereo wav file and WavPack Lossless:
16/44 35meg (WavPack 19meg)
48/24 56meg (WavPack 32meg)
96/24 113meg (WavPack 63meg)
192/24 227meg (WavPack 120meg)

most DAW can use WavPack but Biab could convert to wav to use same as it would with wma.