Hi, I sent almost the same email to PG-Music support requesting this. It has all the links. I dumped the email in here. This one has the very first png picture. It effects the Vocal Wizard too. This has an added comment about no tuners going against the strandard.
My second post above references this "International Standardization Organization (ISO)" music pitches table. http://people.virginia.edu/~pdr4h/pitch-freq.html which has it correct (notice the "MC" standing for Middle C at C4). See the comment at the bottom of the table. Also notice this Full size Piano demo video agrees C4 is middle C and the lowest piano key of the video matches LP in the table. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCIEcgRnMZc
Middle C (the fourth C key from left on a standard 88-key piano keyboard) is designated C4 in scientific pitch notation.
C4 may be called Low C by someone playing a Western concert flute, which has a higher and narrower playing range than the piano, while C5 (523.251 Hz) would be Middle C. This technically inaccurate practice has led some pedagogues to encourage standardizing on C4 as the definitive Middle C in instructional materials across all instruments.
Note that for a classical piano and musical theory, the middle C is usually labelled as C4; However, in the MIDI standard definition (like the one used in Apple's GarageBand), this middle C (261.626 Hz) is labelled C3. In practice, a MIDI software can label middle C (261.626 Hz) as C3-C5, which can cause confusions, especially for beginners.
This A440 Wiki agrees. Extract below. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A440_(pitch_standard) A440 (also known as Stuttgart pitch[1]) is the musical pitch corresponding to an audio frequency of 440 Hz, which serves as a tuning standard for the musical note of A above middle C, or A4 in scientific pitch notation. It is standardized by the International Organization for Standardization as ISO 16. While other frequencies have been (and occasionally still are) used to tune the first A above middle C, A440 is now commonly used as a reference frequency to calibrate acoustic equipment and to tune pianos, violins, and other musical instruments.
This scientific notation wiki agrees. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_pitch_notation Scientific pitch notation avoids possible confusion between various derivatives of Helmholtz notation which use similar symbols to refer to different notes. For example, "c" in Helmholtz's original notation[2] refers to the C below middle C, whereas "C" in ABC Notation refers to middle C itself. With scientific pitch notation, middle C is always C4, and C4 is never any note but middle C. This notation system also avoids the "fussiness" of having to visually distinguish between four and five primes, as well as the typographic issues involved in producing acceptable subscripts or substitutes for them.
These eight smartphone phone and computer tuners all agree with the ISO music pitches table. With the exception of the BIAB tuner I found no tuners that went against the (ISO Middle C being C4) standard. All the other tuners simply did not report an octave letter. Some of the links use the #t=MinutesSeconds video jump parameter to jump to where I verified it.
It has become important to the Jazz jams Club now because we have a very active vocalist with some key changes requested. Again, it effects the Vocal Wizard too.
I agree that the anomaly of the notation reference should be resolved, especially seeing that even the internal settings of the program contradict themselves (Clef Split Point vs Notation identification).
+1
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+1 but I believe the idea needs to be refined and further discussed.
What if the program has one preference setting where the user can designate the value of midi note 60, the default clef split location and midi middle C in one setting? This would consolidate multiple settings, reduce user confusion and allow the user to follow the Roland, Yamaha or other middle C standard that they prefer.
From a programming standpoint it is pretty easy. Just store a variable with the octave number that the user chooses to be Middle C (from what we are seeing C4 should be the default). Next there are two options depending on the current programming. Either update the full table there and then or have a function to figure out the correct scientific note to display for each situation. I am in no position to be giving estimates but my guess is 1 to 5 days for a person who knows the code.
What VideoTrack noticed is interesting. It suggests this is a cosmetics logic error meaning they really did mean it to be C4 but the cosmetics are not processing properly. This conflict essentially renders the Vocal Wizard useless except for its reporting the number of semitones of range in the melody. You would have to do extensive experimenting to figure out what it is going to do (not worth the effort - easier manually).
I took a closer look at the Vocal Wizard (see picture which explains the problems).
Up until I did this I was suggesting the vocalist in our group buy BIAB. It would save me work :-) However now I am suggesting he wait until this issue is fixed (I don't want to recommend a product that will confuse him). Even if he does not buy it I will wait until this issue is fixed then I will upgrade. It will save me work.
Now that we have 1 very good vocalist others may join the club and keep me busy :-) The thoughts above get magnified.
Well presented explanation. A tip for some users to better view the details: right-click on the attachment and select 'View Image' to see the image in full size, and use your browser's 'back' button to return.
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Well presented explanation. A tip for some users to better view the details: right-click on the attachment and select 'View Image' to see the image in full size, and use your browser's 'back' button to return.
Thanks for the tip VideoTrack. I was wondering how to get a bigger image. I am guessing you are using Win10. My Windows 7 says "View Image in New Tab". Then I have to click the X to close it.
Thanks for the tip VideoTrack. I was wondering how to get a bigger image. I am guessing you are using Win10. My Windows 7 says "View Image in New Tab". Then I have to click the X to close it.
Good point. I'm pretty sure it could be a browser unique thing. I'm using Firefox, but I just checked and Chrome provides the 'View image in new tab' message.
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I just tried in FireFox. it shows "View Image Info". It truly does mean info. It gives a lot of extra stuff I personally am not interested in and the image is not much bigger or clearer if at all. In Google chrome however the image is full browser screen and easier to read with no info I personally don't want. I personally prefer Google Chrome for my website because it highlights all ctrl+F search string occurrences where as Firefox does not. This makes the website very good for organizing jams (lots of uses for that ctrl+f search). Chrome also puts tick marks down the right slider bar to indicate hidden occurrences.
I agree that the anomaly of the notation reference should be resolved, especially seeing that even the internal settings of the program contradict themselves (Clef Split Point vs Notation identification).
+1
Hi Videotrack,
I hope you don't mind my adding my couple of penny's worth of comments to this...
The reason C4 (an octave below middle C) is set as the split point usually is because melody notes below middle C will be written as ledger lines on the treble clef rather than as notes in the bass clef.
If you set the split point to C5, then melody notes lower than middle C (C5) will be written on the bass clef.
(That's my experience and understanding, at least.)
Thanks Noel, and your input is always appreciated Separate to the display (which perhaps could be right), the O/P seems to have identified other anomalies with the selection of note pitch. I don't use those features, so am not really qualified to make suggestions. Somehow I think there is an underlying issue. Perhaps PGM could comment?
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I agree that the anomaly of the notation reference should be resolved, especially seeing that even the internal settings of the program contradict themselves (Clef Split Point vs Notation identification).
+1
Hi Videotrack,
I hope you don't mind my adding my couple of penny's worth of comments to this...
The reason C4 (an octave below middle C) is set as the split point usually is because melody notes below middle C will be written as ledger lines on the treble clef rather than as notes in the bass clef.
If you set the split point to C5, then melody notes lower than middle C (C5) will be written on the bass clef.
(That's my experience and understanding, at least.)
All the best, Noel
Thanks Noel. You forced me to analyse the split point setting closer. There is in fact no design conflict within BIAB. I now say this because in order to get the staffs to act such that the only line between the Bass and Treble clef is the Middle C line you have to set the split point to C5. This means that BIAB here again thinks that proper middle C is C5 which goes against everything mentioned in my first post that started this thread.
I think it is going to be very difficult for PG-Music to not put in the feature for users to choose what they consider to be middle C because once available all the evidence suggests the majority will choose C4. The question becomes how difficult is the programming of this new option going to be.
I watched the video, and it reminded me of a concert I attended. George Shearing was performing. He was asked how he knew where Middle C was on the piano, and his answer was: "That's easy, it's the C nearest to the lock"
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This is an interesting thread. Thanks for all that you've written and discussed Trevor and John.
How all this stuff works in my head is that it's similar to MIDI channels which, in turn, are similar to computer programming arrays.
There are two schools of thought on MIDI channels that still seem to exist today. Often programs let you choose which option best suits. There is the 0-15 school of thought and 1-16 school of thought.
Now why this comes back to computers for me is that if I define (say) a 6 dimension array, then in the couple of languages I'm familiar with, the elements of that array will be numbered 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. For me, this is similar to 0-15 MIDI channels.
The C4/C5 (and even C3) definitions of Middle C are the same. It all depends on how a manufacturer defines the lowest C. That is: C0, C1, C(-1). I'm sure you know all this. I just mention it to give an insight into the above parallel between computer programming and MIDI channels.
This is what I've found out so far for various nomenclature...
Middle C = C5, Band In A Box
Middle C = C5, Fruity Loops
Middle C = C5, Bandlabs Sonar
Middle C = C5, Mixcraft
Middle C = C4, Reaper
Middle C = C4, Roland
Middle C = C3, Cubase
Middle C = C3, Yamaha
Middle C = C3, Kontakt
Middle C = C3, Studio One
I don't know if the same applies to all the above today. I just used Google to help me find the information and I didn't research it thoroughly.
What Reaper uses is an OCTAVE OFF-SET. By entering an integer value -1, 0, 1, etc., it's possible to define what middle C is from the octaves perspective. It is always note 60, though.
I am a programmer and a musician. I was a guitar teacher before I became a programmer. The Job of a top quality Programmer is to make life easier for the client not harder. If they can't do this they should not be a programmer. They should not be using computer limitations to decide what middle C is. Musicians are the ones who decide this. Along the same line they should not be looking at what other programmers have done to decide. Musicians have been around a lot longer than programmers. The people who designed the midi table are clearly top level programmers who understand what I just wrote. If musicians are a bit undecided then a top level programmer needs to make Middle C an option. Based upon Google info and some comments in this thread it appears that 99% of modern musicians have decided Middle C is the C below A 440 (it appears as though 99% of musicians agree with the table).
I agree with you. I also note that some pretty important companies choose to use C3 and C5 as middle C. From what I could find out, those who use C3, C4 and C5 seems a fairly evenly spread field.
That's why I suggested the idea of using an Octave Offset (like Reaper does). This then lets individuals match BIAB to their musical hardware and software.
Unless I've missed something in the thread (which is possible because I skimmed through it), making the middle C reference solely C4 would still mean that many musicians will have BIAB mismatching their DAW and/or their keyboards. For example, a lot of people on these forums use Bandlabs Sonar and it uses C5 for Middle C (the same as BIAB).
The image below shows Reapers adjustment for setting middle C.
Hi Noel, The idea is to change BIAB to allow the user to set Middle C to whatever they want. The default setting I am not sure about. Up to PG-Music.
I am not sure why a DAW would need to know anything about Middle C. I use Audacity. I export the BIAB backing tracks (and the melody). We use those if needed to record our tracks. They get mixed with effects at times. The midi melody is always discarded. We are done.
Another table from a university (Michigan Technological University) that agrees C4 is middle C https://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html I like this table because it shows the frequency of C0 is 16.35 (Google says human's can't hear below 20 hz).
This is what I've found out so far for various nomenclature...
Middle C = C5, Fruity Loops
Middle C = C5, Bandlabs Sonar
Middle C = C5, Mixcraft
Middle C = C4, Reaper
Middle C = C4, Roland
Middle C = C3, Cubase
Middle C = C3, Yamaha
Middle C = C3, Kontakt
Middle C = C3, Studio One
Exactly how do you come up with this? Do you own these products? Are these products sounding a musical pitch and you are checking them against a tuner? If this is true it appears to me a lot of programmer analysts need to come out into the real world. The programmer's programming the tuners all got it correct.
Exactly how do you come up with this? Do you own these products? Are these products sounding a musical pitch and you are checking them against a tuner? If this is true it appears to me a lot of programmer analysts need to come out into the real world. The programmer's programming the tuners all got it correct.
Hi again, John.
Google helped me find the information. I typed in manufacturers and looked at how they defined middle C. That's what led me to links like the below...
As you've already mentioned, the most important thing common to all is that middle c is note 60 and then multiples of 12 will take one up/down octaves. That does not change.
e.g. note numbers: 60 (mid C), 72 (up octave), 48 (down octave), etc.
the most important thing common to all is that middle c is note 60 and then multiples of 12 will take one up/down octaves
Hi Noel. Thanks for the info on the software companies that are getting it wrong. Although I spent more time making money as a programmer than making money as a musician I disagree with your statement above. Yes the midi numbers are correct and that is fine because it has to be this way. I agree with everything in the table and it matches your statement above (all midi numbers for the C note divide evenly by 12 in the table). But getting the middle C scientific notation number correct is more important because none programming musicians will tend to be unhappy with that fact that software people can't even get that scientific notation number correct. The best evidence of this attitude I see is that I have a lot of trouble getting none programming musicians to use a computer form at my jam club. Most members are IT people like me. Again, smart software people know computers should not confuse the client and not getting the scientific notation octave number correct will clearly confuse them. The way I see it PG-Music should put this in as an option and the more I think about it the more I come to realize they should make Middle C default to C4. I also am beginning to realize PG-Music should fix this A.S.A.P. This error will tend to turn off vocalists and anyone trying to deal with key changes. They will think this way. All the free tuning software gets it correct but a software costing $129 US and up can't even get it correct. They will see one software company getting wrong because another software company got it wrong as the blind leading the blind. It clearly does not help sales. I did a complete about face and steered the vocalist clear of BIAB when I saw the Vocal Wizard was all screwed up. He agreed to wait until it is fixed.
I will leave myself a reminder to check each BIAB release to see if this is fixed. When the fix goes in I will upgrade and let the vocalist(s) in the group know. There are actually 4 of them (three of them don't have BIAB). I will send the email out to the whole group of 30 that this has been fixed and send a picture of the vocal wizard as well.
In the midi pitch frequency table maybe C0 is called zero because humans cannot hear it. So with this idea C1 would mean the first C that humans can hear. If my theory is correct then these midi people understand what I am talking about. They are likely to be systems analysts (a step above programmers) or maybe systems coordinators (even farther up the experience chain). In other words they choose zero because it relates to humans in some way rather than 0 or 1 being standard in computer programming tables.
This error will tend to turn off vocalists and anyone trying to deal with key changes. They will think this way. All the free software gets it correct but a software costing $129 US and up can't even get it correct. It clearly does not help sales.
Hi John,
As already mentioned, I agree with you. And I am not writing the below to be argumentative. It's not my style. I simply seek to clarify the MIDI system of C3, C4, C5 options for middle C as someone who lives outside the USA and is not an American.
The different references for middle C (C5, C4 or C3) are not errors. All are correct because there is no standard in this nomenclature. The standard is defining middle C as note #60.
Different companies have chosen to follow their own paths determined by how they choose to number the lowest reference C. After a little more reading, it seems that C4 is popular in the USA but C3 and C5 are common outside the USA.
An analogy for me is the kilogram, metre, second, Celsius system of measurements. Throughout an awful lot of the world, these are the standard measurements for weight, length, time and temperature. They are also the scientific standard. That's what we use here in Australia. In the USA, though, I understand that people use pounds, inches, seconds and Fahrenheit. Even though the metric system is referred to as the "scientific standard" in a lot of places, this doesn't mean that the Imperial system has no place. It's also not an error. It's just different.
Given that BIAB is used worldwide, it makes sense to have all options available so that the customers can choose the middle C option that matches whatever else they have for making music and wherever in the world they live.
When I recommend a change to software I at times suggest making it an option for two reasons. 1/ I don't have time to research and know everything. 2/ for backward comparability just in case (you never know how some users may be using the software).
PG-Music probably already realize this but I will say it anyways. This is actually a major change. I think it would be wise if they have an install popup when they fix this to ask the user how they want middle C to be represented in scientific musical notation. On the popup I am sure some users would find info links helpful (maybe the ones I have have used in this thread and maybe more). Ideally the popup should know if the user saw the popup before and what they chose before and tell them how to change it later after install. One more thing. The popup should list the items it effects in the program (the windows that use it, etc). It is starting to look like this change will take more than 4 days :-) Maybe 4 weeks :-) Making suggestions is easy. Making it reality not so much :-) Been there, done that :-)
Ha, I can offer no defense for the USA not using the metric system. At least my granddaughters are learning what it is, so perhaps there is hope someday. As for where Middle C is, for a music software company, this was a Hobson’s “pick your poison” Choice. It’s either Roland or Yamaha. Choose one and the other is wrong.
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As for where Middle C is, for a music software company, this was a Hobson’s “pick your poison” Choice. It’s either Roland or Yamaha. Choose one and the other is wrong.
Having it as an option avoids unproductive fighting but make it obvious the option is there. Give the user the option to turn the popup off.
This is continuing to be an extremely interesting discussion. I agree, something needs to be done to allow a user to adopt a 'preference' (notice I didn't say 'standard') that suits their system operations.
The analogy to metric vs imperial is a classic. Having grown up with imperial and switching to metric as an adult, I've got no idea how that other system is still in use (I can comfortably use both, but I know which one I prefer). Anyhow, my 'metric' is that middle-C is the first C note below A 440Hz (440 cycles per second ) But again, I digress, 25.4 apologies.
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Paydirt! (right near the top of that search) We will follow the International Standards Organization (ISO) system for register designations. In that system, middle C (the first ledger line above the bass staff or the first ledger line below the treble staff) is C4. An octave higher than middle C is C5, and an octave lower than middle C is C3.
So now I have a suggestion for PG-Music. Make C4 the default option in the popup and make sure you mention in the popup that C4 is the International Standards Organization (ISO) option (protect yourself from the darts and contribute to the benefit of all). I think international means the whole world standard. So now I think I have my best guess as to why all the tuners are using C4. The phone tuners are more recent and more likely to use the ISO standard. Europe has been around a longer time. More likely have a greater number of people do not want to learn new things. However I have not taken the time to read any hits in this search. why do some musicians use C5 or C3 rather than C4?. Am I jumping to conclusions when I think it is because they just do not want to be inconvenienced and learn something new for the good of all? I don't know. I do know that most people do not like being inconvenienced.
I think we clearly established in the original thread why we think BIAB should just create a user setting to specify which value is used for Middle C. We can then choose the value depending on the hardware and software we use and the education we received.
I also think we won’t solve why it is what it is. In the case of technology, being around longer is not an advantage. Right or wrong, the innovators developing the hardware and software chose their preferences, and that includes the USA, Japan, UK, South Korea, and now China. But they failed to all agree on a standard. No matter; just please give us a choice and we’re done here.
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I went back to my original post and made an update to it because I noticed that the table I have mentioned over and over again has the letters "ISO" in the upper left corner. Here is the update I made. The changes are in red.
My second post above references this "International Standards Organization (ISO)" music pitches table. http://people.virginia.edu/~pdr4h/pitch-freq.html which has it correct (notice the "MC" standing for Middle C at C4). See the comment at the bottom of the table.
I have to assume these ISO people are better than average at choosing a standard. However I still feel BIAB should make C3 and C5 an option (not the default options) and many of the links I have brought to this thread should be available on that popup. Don't put ISO beside the default C4 option. Instead put "International Standards Organization (ISO)" and immediately direct them to the table and point out it is created by this organisation. I completely missed the ISO on that table. How Am I suppose to know what ISO stands for even if I did notice it? Maybe the ISO should create a standard of not using Acronyms :-)
Educational links Below. Do not show this popup again==>" ".
The advantages link could say "To the best of our knowledge all chromatic tuners follow the ISO standard. Choosing C4 causes the (Vocal Wizard the notation window staff lines) to match these tuners.". You might want to list as many tuners as you can find as I did that show the note in scientific notation and show the frequency. This will be helpful for some wanting to buy a tuner.
The educational links could be in the form of questions. They click on it to get the answer.
I found one tuner in 9 tuners that does not follow the "International Standardization Organization (ISO)" standard. The BIAB tuner. I have updated the 1st post.
bowlesj merry xmas to you, and all in this thread. my own feelings on the subject of scientific notation.
1. i am really trying to understand , as i was reading this thread, why the lack of this method in biab is a possible "showstopper". ie some people wont buy biab for lack of it. (it hasnt stopped loads of people all over the world useing biab and showing their songs in the user showcase.) 2. zillions of songs were done long before computers and music software. typically , even today, after a song is arranged, in studios large and small a new vocalist will do test runs in different keys with a backing band live. then everyone sits down and assesses the best song approach and key etc. etc etc. and any needed changes to get the best performance, and present the song in the best light. 3.. thus. haveing done the chord arrange in biab couldnt you try various test runs with whoever the vocalist is and assess via key and arrangement choices the best solution ? 4.. my vocal method is , as follows haveing laid down the biab arrangement. (believe me when i say i am harder on myself than anyone else might be. i'm uber critical to a fault.) a. i export from biab into the daw a test stereo beds mix. b. i lay down several vocal traks in daw trying different vocal styles. figuring out what works and what doesnt. and different nuances and lyric change impacts. all the time i'm assessing what the song needs. c. if not happy, rinse and repeat, trying different keys etc etc. all along i'm also testing out different voc harmonies i lay down. ie how well do they fit in ?? the above is jusr a small sampling of methods i use , and i would respectfully suggest way more thorough than useing a vocal wizard, because i'm doing it with the actual song that my vocs will end up on.
PLEASE NOTE. i'm not saying i'm a brilliant vocalist. and i'm not saying i'm the worst. ive just developed various techniques over the years. ive sung in all sorts of groups from church choirs thru heavy rock. i think over the years ive sung every possible style. its all the love of music to me. and all through that time ive never heard people discuss this subject of scientific notation. and believe me when i say ive done songs with people way more talented than i am. includeing brilliant conductors//arrangers//musicians. (and i DO know when my vocs arent up to par. on some original songs.so i move on to a different song idea. I AM REALISTIC.)
in closeing, also i feel there are more pressing feature requests that have been requested for ages by pg users. like the "oddball" fundamental chorus feature change needed. if its a few simple lines of code. why not ? do the feature. but, haveing worked in industry, sometimes the impacts can be more than a few simple lines of code.
i am really trying to understand , as i was reading this thread, why the lack of this method in biab is a possible "showstopper". ie some people wont buy biab for lack of it. (it hasnt stopped loads of people all over the world using biab and showing their songs in the user showcase.)
#1 The vocalist in our group is asking for BIAB key changes. I was hoping the Vocal Wizard could make this easier. Currently it makes it harder. May as well remove it. Not a big fan of the BIAB tuner. The vocalist does not have BIAB either. #2 My google searches in a very short period of time have uncovered probably 20 forum posts about the use of C3 and C5 rather than C4. I have to guess this is a very small tip of the ice berg. Simple answer. Wasted time because a standard is not being followed.
bowlesj does your vocalist have daw software ? if so just give the vocalist a bed traks stereo mix from biab in different keys ? for practice , and to see what works . then youll get feedback from vocallist which one is preferred , and which one the vocallist feels more comfortable with. thats what i used to do. also most vocallists know anyway in advance what they are comfortable with, thus this should narrow down choices. ive done the above on gear from 2 inch MT machines down to portastudios. lol.
Thanks Muso, its an okay idea but a fair bit of work. Better to get it correct the first time.
I have the vocalists range in ISO standard using his tuner. To use the BIAB vocal wizard I have to increment the range by 1. But I for some reason don't trust it.
I agree with Matt. The case is presented. There is not much more to say other than this. These vocalists want to use phone tuners which follow the ISO standard. If BIAB can adapt to this standard as default option it may mean more sales. Not following this standard is like a big scratch on a shiny car.
It isn't really a show stopper because many of us have used BIAB successfully for years, in my case over 27. It's just something to request that would be nice to have and adapt to the multiple standards that unfortunately still exist. Since this discrepancy has existed for decades among all kinds of music software and hardware, we learned to live with it and make music. The case is clear, and let's give PG Music a chance to work with it. If they don't, though, the world is not over.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
I did some testing and got the Vocal Wizard to work. For my situation (if the vocalist is not very knowledgeable with BIAB) is is probably best for me to use BIAB to run the Vocal Wizard myself and send the .wav file tracks out in the key the vocalist needs. Here is the whole process including how I work around BIAB not using the "International Standardization Organization (ISO)" pitch standard.
Get the vocalists range in the ISO standard suggesting they use one of the tuners in the list in post #1. Place the vocalist's range in my database so I always have it but document it in combo ISO and BIAB format. Example below. SoAndSo's range is (A2-A3) to (C5-C6) where the 1st number in brackets is the ISO Standard & the 2nd number is BIAB. When they request a song I enter the BIAB range in the vocal wizard. I press the "Transpose now" button which appears near the bottom of the vocal wizard. I close down the Vocal Wizard and reopen it. Near the bottom in the black background section it will tell me if I have to do a "melody only transpose". If it says I need to do this I close the wizard and do a "melody only transpose" then open the wizard again. I do a final check of the bottom black background section to be sure there is no melody transpose suggestion. If there is no suggestion I am basically done. However I might want to analyze the vocal wizard upper messages to see if the key can better be centered. If this is the case I do a manual judgement adjustment to the whole song so the vocalist does not need to reach to their extreme range note. The whole process is finished so I can now send the tracks out as .wav files for the vocalist and other club members to work with. The vocalist may use the midi melody to learn the tune by ear then apply their own style.
So why is the wizard requiring a two pass process. I think it is because it figured out if the first pass needs to shift the real tracks up or down to minimize the real tracks adjustment distortion. It does what it has to do and at least tells you that you have to take a second step to adjust the midi melody up or down by an octave.
If the vocalist is really good with BIAB and wants to do this themselves they could get their range by singing directly into the BIAB guitar tuner with a mike. Otherwise they can use their favorite tuner, figure out if it reports using ISO standard using the ISO standard pitch table also shown in post #1 and keep a record of it as I do with the same format I used "Example: My vocal range is (A2-A3) to (C5-C6)".
I still prefer that BIAB has the option to use the ISO standard. Like I said before BIAB not having the option to use the option to use the "International Standardization Organization (ISO)" music pitches table is like trying to sell a shiny new Bently car with a big scratch on it.
As per the prior post's analogy it seems I am still shaking the BIAB C4 versus C5 dust off in that I was not 100% sure if I had actually tested the output frequency the BIAB notation is producing. So this time I did a test but I documented it in my reminder database so that a few years from now I do not forget and have to waste time testing it again (it was a challenge because I had to select the correct midi instrument to get the tuner to pick up the sound). Here it is.
================================================================================= To test the actual pitch that Band in a box (BIAB) is sounding see the notes text box of this calendar entry. The result of the test is this this. When you enter notes in the Band In A Box notation window the notes actually do sound at the correct pitches where middle C sounds as ISO C4 at frequency 261.626. The confusion occurs because BIAB reports this incorrectly as C5 in three places (In its notation window, in its Vocal Wizard and in its guitar tuner).
Procedure: Run the NCH Perfect Pitch Software on the asus machine. We know for sure this software works on the "International Standardization Organization (ISO)" music pitches table scientific notation standard where C4 is middle C at frequency 261.626 .
Plug the computer mike into the asus machine mike in plug. This plug is on top of the asus machine on the left side. The right side is the headset output.
Place the computer mike inside the main machine logitech bass speaker sound hole. This is the machine that BIAB is running on.
On the main machine run the BIAB song file Test_BIAB_Notation_ActualPitch.MGU
This BIAB file has 2 bars of middle C4 and 2 bars of middle D4 written in the midi melody.
Make sure the midi instrument is set to Instrument 5 electric piano. If you use vibes the NCH software does not pick up the signal. The piano sounds similar to a fender rhodes.
In BIAB highlight the 4 bars and press f10 to play the notes over and over in a loop.
When you run this the NCH tuner reports that the note written in the middle C position of the staff does in fact sound as ISO C4 at frequency 261.626. the note written just above at D4 does sound correctly as ISO D4 at frequency 293.665.
Just to set the record straight for others who read this thread. When you say... "The confusion occurs because BIAB reports this incorrectly as C5 in three places (In its notation window, in its Vocal Wizard and in its guitar tuner)."
It is not incorrect to call Middle C, C5. A number of really big music companies do that (as my previous post points out). There are also a number of really big music companies that call Middle C, C3.
It's important to note that MIDI does not use C3, C4, C5 as standard references. MIDI's standard references are note numbers. In all honesty, I find it easy to remember that Middle C is note 60 (=5x12).... thus one octave lower is 48 (=4x12), another octave lower is 36 (=3x12); conversely higher octaves = 6x12, 7x12, etc. So, as long as I can remember my 12 times table, all octaves of C are covered.
I appreciate that you want Middle C to be C4 and I fully understand why. I hope you win the battle
It is not incorrect to call Middle C, C5. A number of really big music companies do that (as my previous post points out). There are also a number of really big music companies that call Middle C, C3.
IF Middle C on the piano had one name Noel we and many others would have more time to spend on more productive things. By saying having more than one name is okay you are essentially saying that wasting time on forums discussing these things or trying to figure out what is going on is okay. I am sure you won't consider changing your name every time you post here would essentailly be doing the same thing as these companies are doing by sticking with their approach? I assume you know that answer. Poor communication. Poor communication is the biggest reason marriages fail. Is that okay too? I am sure you would think not.
I should emphasize that the first post now has an extract from one of the Wikis that says that it is okay to have negative numbers in the OSO standard.
If these companies are doing it their own way because it is easier to program then to remove the confusion (or reduce it at least) their numbering system could be changed such that there is a letter in front. So (C4 is ISO) (Ca3 is Roland) (Cb5 is Yamaha). They stick the letter in to indicate it is a different system than the ISO standard (extremely easy to program since you do it during reporting only). Not only that we can have up to 26 companies going against the standard...lol. Well there you go! Maybe I should be a marriage counselor...lol.
... IF Middle C on the piano had one name Noel we and many others would have more time to spend on more productive things. By saying having more than one name is okay you are essentially saying that wasting time on forums discussing these things or trying to figure out what is going on is okay. Why don't you change your name every time you post here? I assume you know that answer. Poor communication. Poor communication is the bigger reason marriages fail. Is that okay too? ...
John, I've been supportive of your intentions throughout this thread, but other people can and will always make constructive comments. That's what forum discussions are for. I sense that your most recent reply is unnecessarily critical of a respected forum member who
1: simply stated facts
2: also hoped you could be successful.
Perhaps you are having a bad day and frustrated that this isn't immediately resolved. If so I can understand a little more, but let's all keep a balance. We are all working from the same page here. Have a great and safe Christmas. Trevor
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
I see it different. Everyone makes mistakes. I make lots of them (I have gone back and fixed at least 10 to 20 errors in my posts in this thread alone). Pointing out what I consider a simple error is not showing disrespect. Encouraging poor communication is nothing more than a simple error.
My suggestion to have a display such as "C4 Cb5" on a screen is improving communication and this in respecting people's time. Doing this is easy. It is essentially the same technique I used in my reminder database for recording our club member's vocal range (ISO standard first and the variant next right beside it). So I have essentially with this idea given PG-Music an extremely easy solution to the problem and I would 100% accept it (even recommend it to save time and money). Small letter "b" could represent the BIAB representation. This idea respects PG-Music's time because it will take a lot less time to program. Actually both of you can be given part credit for this idea. With out the push back on my post I never would have got the idea.
So I did make a change to my post. I added this. "Is that okay too? I am sure you would think not?". In other words I am sure Noel will understand what I am saying. I think it goes without saying that Noel will not be changing his name with every post. It is simply a parallel to get my point across. I went back and change my post to state this.
Update: I added an update to the sample MS-Access computer code in the next post to handle the fact that the Piano Roll does not have room for the full display of ISO standard and BIAB representation side by side.
Hopefully this post brings quick closure to this issue. I will create a link directly to this post in Post #1 at the very top.
Regarding the solution I came up with in the prior post I went ahead and computer programmed it. I suspect it is the (quickest, easiest, cheapest and maybe even the best) solution to this confusion-creating time-wasting poor-communication problem. I do not know C so I programmed it in MS-Access. I tested it and it works. It took 30 minutes to complete. After the same function is programmed in C all that needs to be done is make room for the wider output at each display location in BIAB then insert the function call immediately before the move of the display-variable to the display. This is the command
The test results and the complete code are below. The small letter "b" stands for BIAB representation.
Test Results of the MSGBOX command: C5 becomes (C4 bC5) putting the small letter "b" first avoids the C flat confusion that (C4 Cb5) creates. C0 becomes (C-1 bC0) C9 becomes (C8 bC9) A5 becomes (A4 bA5)
To be honest I am not sure why anyone would want to know the BIAB representation. Maybe someone would want it because of their use with other programs and export/imports involved. This solution leaves all such code untouched, respects the ISO standard, provides the needed info and does not rock the boat (very low risk).
Code:
Private Sub cmdTempTest_Click() 'Test function
Dim strExampleCode As String
strExampleCode = funcJWInputBox(14, "C5", "Enter the BIAB code such as C5 for Midde C")
MsgBox funcProperCommunication(strExampleCode) 'Test Command
End Sub
Public Function funcProperCommunication(strNon_ISO_Code As String) As String
Dim strISO_Code As String
Dim intISO_OctaveNumber As Integer
Dim strDisplayCode As String
Dim strNote As String
Dim strBIAB_OctaveNumber As String
Dim intBIAB_OctaveNumber As Integer
Dim strBIAB_OutCode As String
strNote = Left(strNon_ISO_Code, 1)
strBIAB_OctaveNumber = Right(strNon_ISO_Code, 1)
intBIAB_OctaveNumber = strBIAB_OctaveNumber
strBIAB_OutCode = "b" & strNote & strBIAB_OctaveNumber
intISO_OctaveNumber = intBIAB_OctaveNumber - 1
strISO_Code = strNote & intISO_OctaveNumber
strDisplayCode = "(" & strISO_Code & " " & strBIAB_OutCode & ")"
funcProperCommunication = strDisplayCode
End Function
I modified the MS-Access computer code showing in the above post and I display the revised version below. The change allows the displaying of the scientific notation that appears in the piano roll which does not have enough room to display both the ISO standard format and the BIAB representation. Here is where a user preference global parameter would be needed to be referenced (I hard coded that preference in the function which is called). The test results and code are below. So this covers everything and is extremely easy to do. It is still a very low risk change, it will make BIAB look better in the eyes of most musicians and remove the confusion which wastes people's time. The "insufficient room to display both" factory default really should be ISO since it is the most popular and the recognized standard as indicated in post #1. However, as PG-Music no doubt knows, it would be wise to point this out to users (especially existing users) so they know of this change and so that they can keep it as is if they wish. If BIAB provides all the info from post #1 at the appropriate time I suspect most will choose the ISO standard. From what I can tell there is room for the ISO C-1 code on the piano roll since there appears to be a gap there already. Another idea would be to have a hover over popup which shows the two naming methods and even the frequency or more.
Test Results: 'Comment: the display for the notation window. In the test code Y means it can display both C5 becomes (C4 bC5)
'Comment: the display for the Vocal Wizard. In the test code Y means it can display both C5 becomes (C4 bC5)
'Comment: the display for the guitar tuner. In the test code Y means it can display both C5 becomes (C4 bC5)
'Comment: the display for the piano roll. In the test code N means it can not display both C5 becomes (C4) because the user set a global preference to see the ISO code rather than the BIAB code.
Code:
Private Sub cmdTempTest_Click()
Dim strExampleCode As String
strExampleCode = funcJWInputBox(14, "C5", "Enter the BIAB representation code such as C5 for Midde C")
'Comment: the display for the notation window. Y means it can display both
MsgBox funcProperCommunication(strExampleCode, "Y")
'Comment: the display for the Vocal Wizard. Y means it can display both
MsgBox funcProperCommunication(strExampleCode, "Y")
'Comment: the display for the guitar tuner. Y means it can display both
MsgBox funcProperCommunication(strExampleCode, "Y")
'Comment: the display for the piano roll. N means it can not display both
MsgBox funcProperCommunication(strExampleCode, "N")
End Sub
Public Function funcProperCommunication(strNon_ISO_Code As String, strRoomForBoth As String) As String
Dim strUser_RoomForOnly1_Preference As String
strUser_RoomForOnly1_Preference = "ISO" 'Note: the other setting is BIAB.
Dim strISO_Code As String
Dim intISO_OctaveNumber As Integer
Dim strDisplayCode As String
Dim strNote As String
Dim strBIAB_OctaveNumber As String
Dim intBIAB_OctaveNumber As Integer
Dim strBIAB_OutCode As String
strNote = Left(strNon_ISO_Code, 1)
strBIAB_OctaveNumber = Right(strNon_ISO_Code, 1)
intBIAB_OctaveNumber = strBIAB_OctaveNumber
strBIAB_OutCode = "b" & strNote & strBIAB_OctaveNumber
intISO_OctaveNumber = intBIAB_OctaveNumber - 1
strISO_Code = strNote & intISO_OctaveNumber
If strRoomForBoth = "Y" Then
strDisplayCode = "(" & strISO_Code & " " & strBIAB_OutCode & ")"
Else
If strUser_RoomForOnly1_Preference = "ISO" Then
strDisplayCode = strISO_Code
End If
If strUser_RoomForOnly1_Preference = "BIAB" Then
strDisplayCode = strBIAB_OutCode
End If
End If
funcProperCommunication = strDisplayCode
End Function
A few interesting bits of knowledge with link and extract. I may add to this as I think of things.
Where is International Standardization Organization (ISO) located and how old is it?Link Geneva, Switzerland The International Organization for Standardization was founded in 1947 and is headquartered in Geneva, Switzerland. The organization began in the 1920s as the International Federation of the National Standardizing Associations (ISA).
What is the international standard organization mission?Link ISO is an independent, non-governmental international organization with a membership of 165 national standards bodies. Through its members, it brings together experts to share knowledge and develop voluntary, consensus-based, market relevant International Standards that support innovation and provide solutions to global challenges. You'll find our Central Secretariat in Geneva, Switzerland. Learn more about our structure and how we are governed.l Standardizing Associations (ISA).
Does Scientific pitch notation have other names? Scientific pitch notation (or SPN, also known as American standard pitch notation (ASPN) and international pitch notation (IPN))[1][unreliable source?] is a method of specifying musical pitch by combining a musical note name (with accidental if needed) and a number identifying the pitch's octave.
why does the ISO use scientific pitch notation?A440 (pitch Standard) This standard was taken up by the International Organization for Standardization in 1955 (reaffirmed by them in 1975) as ISO 16. It is designated A4 in scientific pitch notation because it occurs in the octave that starts with the fourth C key on a standard 88-key piano keyboard.
What is the most popular musical pitch notation? The two notation systems most commonly used today are the Helmholtz pitch notation system and the scientific pitch notation system.
What is the most popular musical instrument in the world?link #1 – Piano. It might surprise you to know that 21 million Americans play the piano! ... My Comment: This is probably why the ISO Scientific Notation uses this table. Because it matches the C notes on the most popular instrument in the world and from what I have found so far only 2 large church organs that exist in the world can play notes below the human hearing range (below the piano).
Here is PG-Music located. British Columbia Canada (my country).
I am happy to discover the free Audacity DAW uses ISO standard scientific notation or analyzing pitches. I discovered this because I am using Audacity to try to figure out if the drummer in one of our songs is correct about the bass player being a bit out of tune. I think maybe he is but I want a second opinion from Audacity. To get a solid framework from which to work I tuned up my guitar using the NCH Perfect pitch tuner which uses the ISO standard and determined that Audacity reports the same ISO standard pitch for the note (D3). Do do this in Audacity I recorded my D string then highlight the recorded note, go into Audacity (Effect, Change pitch) and get the value it is saying.
I discovered another place PG-Music would have to make a display update in order to eliminate confusion and wasted user time. The attached picture shows a very easy solution. Everything stays the same except upon display of the dialog box and after update of the Note text box the ISO standard is displayed to the left of the BIAB representation. I don't think any user would have an issue with this. Obviously the ISO area would be protected from user update.
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Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
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Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
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Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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