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Yes, I can see that a user-definable offset value could go a long way to allow the user to set everything to their own requirements.
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This is what I've found out so far for various nomenclature...
Middle C = C5, Fruity Loops
Middle C = C5, Bandlabs Sonar
Middle C = C5, Mixcraft
Middle C = C4, Reaper
Middle C = C4, Roland
Middle C = C3, Cubase
Middle C = C3, Yamaha
Middle C = C3, Kontakt
Middle C = C3, Studio One
Exactly how do you come up with this? Do you own these products? Are these products sounding a musical pitch and you are checking them against a tuner? If this is true it appears to me a lot of programmer analysts need to come out into the real world. The programmer's programming the tuners all got it correct.
Last edited by bowlesj; 12/18/20 09:31 PM.
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Another tuner that agrees Middle C is C4. A guitar tuner to boot but it runs on the Iphone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl767iZmggo#t=1m30s
Last edited by bowlesj; 12/18/20 09:35 PM.
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I use MIDI in my DAW. I have a better choice of software MIDI synths there, and I want to see notation. No need to create audio tracks all the time.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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the most important thing common to all is that middle c is note 60 and then multiples of 12 will take one up/down octaves Hi Noel. Thanks for the info on the software companies that are getting it wrong. Although I spent more time making money as a programmer than making money as a musician I disagree with your statement above. Yes the midi numbers are correct and that is fine because it has to be this way. I agree with everything in the table and it matches your statement above (all midi numbers for the C note divide evenly by 12 in the table). But getting the middle C scientific notation number correct is more important because none programming musicians will tend to be unhappy with that fact that software people can't even get that scientific notation number correct. The best evidence of this attitude I see is that I have a lot of trouble getting none programming musicians to use a computer form at my jam club. Most members are IT people like me. Again, smart software people know computers should not confuse the client and not getting the scientific notation octave number correct will clearly confuse them. The way I see it PG-Music should put this in as an option and the more I think about it the more I come to realize they should make Middle C default to C4. I also am beginning to realize PG-Music should fix this A.S.A.P. This error will tend to turn off vocalists and anyone trying to deal with key changes. They will think this way. All the free tuning software gets it correct but a software costing $129 US and up can't even get it correct. They will see one software company getting wrong because another software company got it wrong as the blind leading the blind. It clearly does not help sales. I did a complete about face and steered the vocalist clear of BIAB when I saw the Vocal Wizard was all screwed up. He agreed to wait until it is fixed. I will leave myself a reminder to check each BIAB release to see if this is fixed. When the fix goes in I will upgrade and let the vocalist(s) in the group know. There are actually 4 of them (three of them don't have BIAB). I will send the email out to the whole group of 30 that this has been fixed and send a picture of the vocal wizard as well.In the midi pitch frequency table maybe C0 is called zero because humans cannot hear it. So with this idea C1 would mean the first C that humans can hear. If my theory is correct then these midi people understand what I am talking about. They are likely to be systems analysts (a step above programmers) or maybe systems coordinators (even farther up the experience chain). In other words they choose zero because it relates to humans in some way rather than 0 or 1 being standard in computer programming tables.
Last edited by bowlesj; 12/19/20 05:30 AM.
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This error will tend to turn off vocalists and anyone trying to deal with key changes. They will think this way. All the free software gets it correct but a software costing $129 US and up can't even get it correct. It clearly does not help sales. Hi John, As already mentioned, I agree with you. And I am not writing the below to be argumentative. It's not my style. I simply seek to clarify the MIDI system of C3, C4, C5 options for middle C as someone who lives outside the USA and is not an American. The different references for middle C (C5, C4 or C3) are not errors. All are correct because there is no standard in this nomenclature. The standard is defining middle C as note #60. Different companies have chosen to follow their own paths determined by how they choose to number the lowest reference C. After a little more reading, it seems that C4 is popular in the USA but C3 and C5 are common outside the USA. An analogy for me is the kilogram, metre, second, Celsius system of measurements. Throughout an awful lot of the world, these are the standard measurements for weight, length, time and temperature. They are also the scientific standard. That's what we use here in Australia. In the USA, though, I understand that people use pounds, inches, seconds and Fahrenheit. Even though the metric system is referred to as the "scientific standard" in a lot of places, this doesn't mean that the Imperial system has no place. It's also not an error. It's just different. Given that BIAB is used worldwide, it makes sense to have all options available so that the customers can choose the middle C option that matches whatever else they have for making music and wherever in the world they live. Regards, Noel
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Thanks Noel. I agree.
When I recommend a change to software I at times suggest making it an option for two reasons. 1/ I don't have time to research and know everything. 2/ for backward comparability just in case (you never know how some users may be using the software).
PG-Music probably already realize this but I will say it anyways. This is actually a major change. I think it would be wise if they have an install popup when they fix this to ask the user how they want middle C to be represented in scientific musical notation. On the popup I am sure some users would find info links helpful (maybe the ones I have have used in this thread and maybe more). Ideally the popup should know if the user saw the popup before and what they chose before and tell them how to change it later after install. One more thing. The popup should list the items it effects in the program (the windows that use it, etc). It is starting to look like this change will take more than 4 days :-) Maybe 4 weeks :-) Making suggestions is easy. Making it reality not so much :-) Been there, done that :-)
Regards,
John
Last edited by bowlesj; 12/19/20 05:02 AM.
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Ha, I can offer no defense for the USA not using the metric system. At least my granddaughters are learning what it is, so perhaps there is hope someday. As for where Middle C is, for a music software company, this was a Hobson’s “pick your poison” Choice. It’s either Roland or Yamaha. Choose one and the other is wrong.
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As for where Middle C is, for a music software company, this was a Hobson’s “pick your poison” Choice. It’s either Roland or Yamaha. Choose one and the other is wrong. Having it as an option avoids unproductive fighting but make it obvious the option is there. Give the user the option to turn the popup off.
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This is continuing to be an extremely interesting discussion. I agree, something needs to be done to allow a user to adopt a 'preference' (notice I didn't say 'standard') that suits their system operations. The analogy to metric vs imperial is a classic. Having grown up with imperial and switching to metric as an adult, I've got no idea how that other system is still in use (I can comfortably use both, but I know which one I prefer). Anyhow, my 'metric' is that middle-C is the first C note below A 440Hz (440 cycles per second  ) But again, I digress, 25.4 apologies.
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Another slightly different google search. what middle C standard do most musicians use C3 or C4 or C5? Paydirt! (right near the top of that search)We will follow the International Standards Organization (ISO) system for register designations. In that system, middle C (the first ledger line above the bass staff or the first ledger line below the treble staff) is C4. An octave higher than middle C is C5, and an octave lower than middle C is C3. So now I have a suggestion for PG-Music. Make C4 the default option in the popup and make sure you mention in the popup that C4 is the International Standards Organization (ISO) option (protect yourself from the darts and contribute to the benefit of all). I think international means the whole world standard. So now I think I have my best guess as to why all the tuners are using C4. The phone tuners are more recent and more likely to use the ISO standard. Europe has been around a longer time. More likely have a greater number of people do not want to learn new things. However I have not taken the time to read any hits in this search. why do some musicians use C5 or C3 rather than C4?. Am I jumping to conclusions when I think it is because they just do not want to be inconvenienced and learn something new for the good of all? I don't know. I do know that most people do not like being inconvenienced.
Last edited by bowlesj; 12/19/20 07:43 AM.
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I think we clearly established in the original thread why we think BIAB should just create a user setting to specify which value is used for Middle C. We can then choose the value depending on the hardware and software we use and the education we received.
I also think we won’t solve why it is what it is. In the case of technology, being around longer is not an advantage. Right or wrong, the innovators developing the hardware and software chose their preferences, and that includes the USA, Japan, UK, South Korea, and now China. But they failed to all agree on a standard. No matter; just please give us a choice and we’re done here.
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I went back to my original post and made an update to it because I noticed that the table I have mentioned over and over again has the letters "ISO" in the upper left corner. Here is the update I made. The changes are in red. My second post above references this " International Standards Organization (ISO)" music pitches table. http://people.virginia.edu/~pdr4h/pitch-freq.html which has it correct (notice the "MC" standing for Middle C at C4). See the comment at the bottom of the table.I have to assume these ISO people are better than average at choosing a standard. However I still feel BIAB should make C3 and C5 an option (not the default options) and many of the links I have brought to this thread should be available on that popup. Don't put ISO beside the default C4 option. Instead put "International Standards Organization (ISO)" and immediately direct them to the table and point out it is created by this organisation. I completely missed the ISO on that table. How Am I suppose to know what ISO stands for even if I did notice it? Maybe the ISO should create a standard of not using Acronyms :-)
Last edited by bowlesj; 12/19/20 08:38 AM.
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I finally clued in. ISA and ISO are different Acronyms but upon further research they end up being the same. ISA= International Standards Association. ISO= International Standardization Organization (ISO is the table acronym). I think they are trying to shift away from the ISA acronym because it has so many other meanings. Anyway here are some rough draft ideas for the popup. Options box:
C4 (default checked) "International Standards Association (ISO)" option. "Advantages link".
C3
C5
Educational links Below. Do not show this popup again==>" ". The advantages link could say " To the best of our knowledge all chromatic tuners follow the ISO standard. Choosing C4 causes the (Vocal Wizard the notation window staff lines) to match these tuners.". You might want to list as many tuners as you can find as I did that show the note in scientific notation and show the frequency. This will be helpful for some wanting to buy a tuner. The educational links could be in the form of questions. They click on it to get the answer. I found one tuner in 9 tuners that does not follow the "International Standardization Organization (ISO)" standard. The BIAB tuner. I have updated the 1st post.
Last edited by bowlesj; 12/19/20 10:49 AM.
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bowlesj
merry xmas to you, and all in this thread.
my own feelings on the subject of scientific notation.
1. i am really trying to understand , as i was reading this thread, why the lack of this method in biab is a possible "showstopper". ie some people wont buy biab for lack of it.
(it hasnt stopped loads of people all over the world useing biab and showing their songs in the user showcase.)
2. zillions of songs were done long before computers and music software.
typically , even today, after a song is arranged, in studios large and small a new vocalist will do test runs in different keys with a backing band live. then everyone sits down and assesses the best song approach and key etc.
etc etc. and any needed changes to get the best performance, and present the song in the best light.
3.. thus. haveing done the chord arrange in biab couldnt you try various test runs with whoever the vocalist is
and assess via key and arrangement choices the best solution ?
4.. my vocal method is , as follows haveing laid down the biab arrangement.
(believe me when i say i am harder on myself than anyone else might be. i'm uber critical to a fault.)
a. i export from biab into the daw a test stereo beds mix.
b. i lay down several vocal traks in daw trying different vocal styles.
figuring out what works and what doesnt. and different nuances and lyric change impacts.
all the time i'm assessing what the song needs.
c. if not happy, rinse and repeat, trying different keys etc etc.
all along i'm also testing out different voc harmonies i lay down.
ie how well do they fit in ??
the above is jusr a small sampling of methods i use , and i would respectfully suggest way more thorough than useing a vocal wizard, because i'm doing it with the actual song that my vocs will end up on.
PLEASE NOTE.
i'm not saying i'm a brilliant vocalist. and i'm not saying i'm the worst. ive just developed various techniques over the years. ive sung in all sorts of groups from church choirs thru heavy rock. i think over the years ive sung every possible style. its all the love of music to me.
and all through that time ive never heard people discuss this subject of scientific notation. and believe me when i say ive
done songs with people way more talented than i am.
includeing brilliant conductors//arrangers//musicians.
(and i DO know when my vocs arent up to par. on some original songs.so i move on to a different song idea.
I AM REALISTIC.)
in closeing, also i feel there are more pressing feature requests that have been requested for ages by pg users.
like the "oddball" fundamental chorus feature change needed.
if its a few simple lines of code. why not ? do the feature. but, haveing worked in industry, sometimes the impacts can be more than a few simple lines of code.
merry to all.
muso.
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 12/19/20 10:53 AM.
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i am really trying to understand , as i was reading this thread, why the lack of this method in biab is a possible "showstopper". ie some people wont buy biab for lack of it.
(it hasnt stopped loads of people all over the world using biab and showing their songs in the user showcase.) #1 The vocalist in our group is asking for BIAB key changes. I was hoping the Vocal Wizard could make this easier. Currently it makes it harder. May as well remove it. Not a big fan of the BIAB tuner. The vocalist does not have BIAB either. #2 My google searches in a very short period of time have uncovered probably 20 forum posts about the use of C3 and C5 rather than C4. I have to guess this is a very small tip of the ice berg. Simple answer. Wasted time because a standard is not being followed.
Last edited by bowlesj; 12/19/20 11:09 AM.
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bowlesj
does your vocalist have daw software ?
if so just give the vocalist a bed traks stereo mix from biab in different keys ? for practice , and to see what works .
then youll get feedback from vocallist which one is preferred ,
and which one the vocallist feels more comfortable with.
thats what i used to do.
also most vocallists know anyway in advance what they are
comfortable with, thus this should narrow down choices.
ive done the above on gear from 2 inch MT machines down to portastudios. lol.
have a merry.
muso.
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Thanks Muso, its an okay idea but a fair bit of work. Better to get it correct the first time.
I have the vocalists range in ISO standard using his tuner. To use the BIAB vocal wizard I have to increment the range by 1. But I for some reason don't trust it.
I agree with Matt. The case is presented. There is not much more to say other than this. These vocalists want to use phone tuners which follow the ISO standard. If BIAB can adapt to this standard as default option it may mean more sales. Not following this standard is like a big scratch on a shiny car.
Last edited by bowlesj; 12/19/20 11:38 AM.
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