PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Songwriting When do you know that you have written a good song?

Hi,

once again I'm in the songwriting process, and as usual some of the songs are good and many more are just repetitions of what i already have done before, or just songs with maybe a part or 2 which is good.

So the big question - when do you know, that you have written a good song - what is your checklist to verify your songs' quality?

Here's my flow:
1. I try to grab a melody/tune I have on my mind or I sit an freestyle on my guitar until something useful comes up.
2. I put the parts together in BIAB and works with the parts and the score until I have a complete song.
3. I give the SGU file a name - which 8 out of 10 times ends up defying the lyrics
4. Then it's time to create some decent lyrics ( a process that goes from painful to playfully easy)
5. I then spend a couple of hours playing and singing, while adjusting chords, notes and/or lyrics - but I don't record anything at all - just left with the SGU file and lyrics.
6. I leave the song for at least a week
7. After a week or more I open the song and if I remember the song, it has passed the first test. If I forgot it is pretty much end of the line for that song.
8. I try out the song in alternative arrangements and styles for proof test - it must work with at least 5 different Styles to pass this stage
9. I leave it for at least a month or so (while writing new songs)
10. Once the "due dilligence" is over, I pick it up again - and then I verify whether I still feel enthusiastic to play and sing it....even more important if I still remember the song.

The songs that reach beyond these 10 steps are being recorded, mixed and mastered, and are listed in the queue to be selected for publishing on single, maxi or album.

Last check - do I still like it and do I still feel that I want to share the work public?

Anything I share has passed all of the above, because then I know I at least like the song myself.

So how is your flow or thoughts on creating and selecting and liking your own work?

You are far more methodical than I am. I just know when I have a winner. I also know that if after doing nothing but writing for up to 24 hours, if I’m still fighting to finish the song, it probably isn’t a keeper.

The best advice you gave is to let time elapse. In your case you did that a few times. I admire your discipline.

The most creative advice you gave is to audition the song in multiple styles. Bravo. You have the perfect tool in BIAB. I’ve had my songs performed and recorded primarily by small jazz groups, but also woodwind quartets, brass choirs, jazz ensembles, chamber strings and a symphony orchestra. You never know where your song might wind up.

I write instrumentals, but my songs have been given lyrics and recorded commercially, so I try to anticipate what the title would be by hearing a phrase as the hook. At least then, the lyricist will be on the right track and I can live with their choices.

Same here! If it makes you wanna dance or it's stuck in your "head's jukebox", you know or you feel it's great!


Any advice on how to find lyricists? I do write lyrics myself, but melodies come so much easier...

You could do it the way I did. I married her.

Interesting process but I strongly disagree with "don't record anything at all"! I find that some pretty interesting melodies happen largely by accident and not capturing them does not mean they were no good rather it means that I failed to capture them for later improvement. Didn't McCartney have a story about Yesterday just coming to him and he worried that it must be something he had heard and accidentally nicked? What a shame if he'd let it go and never managed to get it back!

Lucky man, you.

I will know when I have written a good song when someone pays me a lot of money to obtain the rights to said song

Running and ducking for cover

How long is a string?

Other than some collabs and PD songs I write a lyric with Janice’s input. Then she takes it and creates a chord progression and a melody. I’m most lucky with that - and with her in so many ways! We then put a BiaB band together and work out the arrangement in BiaB. After which which we move the tracks to Logic Pro for mixing and her vocals. Multiple generations of many of the tracks will be auditioned with typically some comping.

We are not prolific with J&B songs; however, if we like a lyric we’ve written then the melody, vocal, arrangement and production is gonna happen. It may even change genres during that process but, again, if we like the lyric it’s going to be produced. And throughout that process our objective is topmost to infuse all aspects with soul. Sometimes we will run it by a few very talented folks whom we know we can trust to be insightful and straightforward regarding their suggestions.

After mastering we’ll invite “reviews” by posting it on the showcase forum and on Facebook. We are not thin skinned during this process and we welcome any civil comments.

FWIW, etc., etc.

Bud

What the heck. I'll riff off of your list.

1. I try to grab a melody/tune I have on my mind or I sit an freestyle on my guitar until something useful comes up.

These days I "write" both with guitar and with BIAB. I normally don't pick up the guitar until I have the beginnings (at the minimum) of a song...a line or two and melody. Then I work out the chords and complete the song...sometimes in one sitting, sometimes over several. I will sit down with BIAB and work up an arrangement with those chords, rhythmic changes (rests, shots, holds, pushes, etc.)...what I call "bandifying" a song.

A large part of this is "listening to the BAND". I can't and don't have every musical idea.

The process when starting with BIAB is different. I usually don't have a lyric--at least not a complete one. I work out an interesting "backing" and set it aside to see if some lyrical idea 1. is necessary, or 2. comes to me. I've got a pretty good idea about the melody somewhere during this process or by it's end. Maybe even more importantly, I have a good sense of the "phrasing", the vocal rhythm, by then as well. This is often enough to "help" write a lyric.

If this fails to excite me, then I'll shelve it permanently.

2. I put the parts together in BIAB and works with the parts and the score until I have a complete song.

Similar with me.

3. I give the SGU file a name - which 8 out of 10 times ends up defying the lyrics

I don't worry too much about a file name. I'll name it something that helps me remember what it is. Might be part of the lyric, might be the "style" name, might be something else like an auto-name from BIAB. What I usually DO, is make copies (as many as I need) to produce tracks I think I can use when it comes to "production" in DAW. These may change certain elements of the arrangement in ways that a single .sgu. can't accommodate.

4. Then it's time to create some decent lyrics ( a process that goes from painful to playfully easy)

I don't write lyrics just so a song will have them. If I can't write a lyric that excites me, then it just isn't going to get written. End of story.

5. I then spend a couple of hours playing and singing, while adjusting chords, notes and/or lyrics - but I don't record anything at all - just left with the SGU file and lyrics.

I will have done this either on acoustic or in working up arrangement in BIAB. Call it productive practice. I usually don't record, but not so much as a test. The final "backing" for the song takes place ultimately in DAW. I keep my options open until then. Vocals come last, but I already know how they are going to be delivered.

6. I leave the song for at least a week
7. After a week or more I open the song and if I remember the song, it has passed the first test. If I forgot it is pretty much end of the line for that song.

I'm not that methodical, but it really doesn't take me a week to know if it's something I want to completely finish.

8. I try out the song in alternative arrangements and styles for proof test - it must work with at least 5 different Styles to pass this stage

That's part of the "arrangement" and "pre-production" process I described earlier, but I have no hard-and-fast rule or any particular genre-bias.

9. I leave it for at least a month or so (while writing new songs)

10. Once the "due dilligence" is over, I pick it up again - and then I verify whether I still feel enthusiastic to play and sing it....even more important if I still remember the song.


Nope. If I haven't gotten excited by it by the time I'm ready for production/recording/mixing then it's not going to happen. I MIGHT give a bit of extra time to give some more thought to tightening a lyric, but mostly because I despise recording vocals and absolutely don't want to have to do it again. Strike while the iron is hot and enthusiasm is there.

I've written enough to know when a line or two might be a little weak. But I consider everything I sing on to be a "demo" as far as the "public" is concerned, and really mainly meant to be "enjoyed" by me. Others are, of course, welcome to join me in enjoyment, but I am my primary audience as a "recording artist".


The songs that reach beyond these 10 steps are being recorded, mixed and mastered, and are listed in the queue to be selected for publishing on single, maxi or album.

Last check - do I still like it and do I still feel that I want to share the work public?

Anything I share has passed all of the above, because then I know I at least like the song myself.

I guarantee you if I don't like it in the end (or something major about it) nobody else will ever hear it. At least not outside the privacy of my own home.

I will leave subjective sentiments like "is it good" to others. I'm most happy if I can get Bud and Janice to say it has soul. If I think so too, it's a keeper. I'm not too displeased with my batting average over the years, all things considered. Sometimes it's easier than other times, but that's not the measure of happy.

I THINK one reason is that I simply don't finish what doesn't make me overall happy throughout the whole dang doing of the thang.

I believe that if you like it and you're proud of what you created, that's all that matters. Music should be a audio representation of you and your emotions. Let a couple of your friends listen to it and see how they feel cause yes constructive criticism is great but again, make music for you.

That's my two cents! Bad advice, probably :P

It's an odd thing, but in all the years that I've been writing professionally, and having worked with so many others who have done so, I've found that as songwriters we are the worst judge of our own writing. Some of the songs that I feel are my best work don't seem to move the needle for other people, and yet songs that I wrote and hardly gave a second thought to wound up getting recorded.
I think after a while you "know" that you've written something good just by comparative analysis...how does it stack up to your best work.

Roger, I've experienced that, and learned over decades that my simplest songs are the ones people like, so I build that into my current writing. If they hum it after a concert, I know it's a winner. You can also see this at work on the number of likes on YouTube, for example.

Taking it from the point of view of the emotion communicated by the words and music, I'd say generally, working within the 1-4-5-6m framework as many do; 8, 12, 16 bar, Intro, Verse, Chorus, Outro.... sound familiar? The words convey certain emotions and so do the melodies and chord changes. To my way of thinking of it, it is a lot easier to nail down the chords, as Band in the Box is perfect for doing, within a kind of general outline of the poem. It is on heck of a lot easier to adapt the lyrics to the comps once they have been established than it is the other way around. I can see how a songwriter could adapt to doing it either way, through experience and talent, though. I doubt there a single way to compose.
To respond to the question, my thought is that when the feeling of your music syncs with the feeling of your words, you've pretty well got it down.

Ha....Oh, the irony of our song writing efforts.

For me....
I write simple music/arrangements and concentrate more on lyrical continuity/story line originality.
But...whether I succeed in conveying those criteria are determined by the kind listeners.

So...if I get the courage to throw one of mine up against this (or any other) forum wall for my peer ears and get generally positive responses....that is 'good' enough for me.
I know my place in the music world and my material won't ever have any mass appeal.

It's what we do....great creative therapy for me.

Have a great day all....

I can think of at least a dozen snarky responses.....

I will resist the temptation to use them.....

A good song.... How do I know when I have written one? I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer that because the things I think are good get little response from the forums and less from the internet and zero from the folks that choose the songs for the artists....

the things I think are throw away tunes, things I write to get to the next good song, well those seem to be the ones that garner the most attention but still zero from the folks who choose the songs for the artists.

So, you see my quandary? I'm not sure I really know. So I simply write and let the chips fall where they may.

There are so many good responses, and thank you all for taking the time to reply.

My main purpose of asking was to review my own approach and surely learn from the comments. What I've summarized is, that what I expect myself to be good songs often might not be perceived the same way by listernes, and that is really an interesting thought to have in mind. That doesn't mean I will give up writing songs I find good myself, but it is good to have in mind, that I might cut 10-15% down on the self criticism early in my composing fase.

I wish you all a very happy new year - hopefully 2021 will let us return to life as we knew it from 2019.

all.
I HAVE VERY STRONG VIEWPOINTS ABOUT THE SONGWRITING PROCESS.
ive ridden the crazy songwriting horse round more than a few blocks.
did courses years ago etc etc etc.
probably other people can identify with personal doubts like >>
does my song suck, am i good enough, will people laugh at me etc etc blah blah blah.

THIS TYPE OF SELF DOUBT IS A CREATIVITY KILLER IMHO.
thus my RULE 1 IS :
1. JUST DO IT, and cast all self doubt/worry aside.
my RULE 2 is :
2. TO THY SELF BE TRUE.
ie if you get off on your song thats all thats important.
YOU CANT SECOND GUESS THE REST OF THE WORLD !
YOULL DRIVE YOURSELF CRAZY !.

needless to say , after many years debating with myself and many other musos on writing songs , i'm at peace.
i do my best and thats it. and if others hate the song i take my bricbats as they come.
I WRITE SONGS COS IT MAKES ME HAPPY ! MY BOTTOM LINE.

finally, think on this. how many brilliant songs, right now are sitting on songwriters hard drives around the world that are wonderfull, that remain un-issued due to self doubt/worry.

heres something personal i'll share with you all.
my beautifull wife would have me write love songs only, lol.
she likes my love songs. and i HAVE written a few.
i think ive written songs in most popular muso genres.

but at my heart i'm a bad boy rocker. not hard core metal much. and not 50's style , but, well you know what i mean.
i'm mellowing though with age lol.
i like melody in songs. and i like a song to rock out.
i also like injecting comedy into songs.

i'll belt out any darn vocs in any genre from opera, thru church magnificats, thru metal etc . and have done so over the years in various muso groups.

whats bugging me now is , as i get older i cant hit the very high notes like i used to.

SO I AGREE WITH DERYK. KUDOS TO DERYK IMHO.
KEEP YOURSELF HAPPY FIRST !

ive done about 300 originals in my life in big studios/small studios down to junk cassette MTR's.
also bout 90 originals useing biab/rb (before rb powertraks), and reaper. never regretted a moment. its in my blood.
i just like a nice life with my wife, who, btw just brought me a lovely cup of tea. so i'll bug out now with the words happy new year to all.

muso. STAY POSITIVE !!

I know I have written a good song as soon as I finish it.

Because in the final analysis, all that really matters is whether I like it. If I don't like it, it sucks. If it sucks, I erase it. Or figure out what I don't like about it and fix it.

But usually I erase it. Maybe 3 months later I will revisit the idea and the LAST thing I want is for the old effort that sucked to affect my thought process. I have been working on a silly Mexican song for 7 months. I keep going back and I keep tabling it. It just isn't coalescing the way it should, so it's not a keeper.

Yet.

Roger, I see you are associated with NSAI so I'll give my take and see if you agree.

I joined NSAI back in 2017 and spent the first year sending in my songs for evaluation and I was disappointed when all of the feedback was about unclear lyrics and dated melodies. Once I got over the initial shock I started to incorporate their input into my songs and, lo and behold, the quality of my songs started to improve. By the time 2020 rolled I was able to pen 9 "One to Watch" songs as designated by NSAI evaluators. Does that mean I'm a pro songwriter? Of course not, but since my goal has always been to have others record my songs I knew that had to appeal to today's market, which I am getting better at. Regardless of whether a publsiher ever picks up one of my songs or not, I can say I am enjoying much more success (and the entire process as well) now then before NSAI.

I think it is important to decide why you would write any song. Is the reason to become commercially successful? Is the reason because you like to write songs and don't care about money? Is the reason because you want to be liked and accepted by other people?

Obviously there can be many motivation to write a song. The approach and process needs to fit the end goal.

Nothing more than a sheet of paper is needed to write a song if you are a highly trained and skilled musician. The other end of that spectrum is the multi million dollar studio with more or less unlimited resources. BIAB is a tool that sets somewhere in the middle. It can only do what it is designed to do.

Professional songwriters with a lot of experience may be able to recognize a really good song when they see or hear it. Most songwriters are the least qualified to recognize a good song.

Weather or not a lot of people like one of your songs depends on who sings it. If I write a good song and post it somewhere it is very unlikely anyone will pay any attention no matter how good it is. If Luke Bryan decides to record it everything changes considerably.

As far a using BIAB goes, it is well equipped to to give generic answers to the question of what style best suits this song. It is very good at providing a easy method of construction a simple chord structure for a song, if and only if that structure will fit into the restrictions of the software.

Finally, the way you know that you have written a really good song is if many famous artist have recorded it and it continues to generate revenue year after year. That would be a good start but even that would not make you a Bernie Taupin ...lol

Billy