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#637025 - 01/18/21 08:22 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Allow BIAB and REALBAND to operate at sample rates of 48000 and 44100
Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 4
Loc: Ontario, Canada
philosofree Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 4
Loc: Ontario, Canada
While I understand that PGMUSIC has chosen 44100 as the default sample rate, there are other products that have different defaults, eg. JamKazam insists on 48000
So when you have multiple WINDOWS open with different products at different sample rates, each one has to be changed in ASIO every time you use it. That is annoying or worse, it means that sometimes there is a clash.
For example if I am trying to play BIAB while JamKazam is open, it sounds out of tune due to the variance in sample rate.

If BIAB and REALBAND have the option to choose the sample rate, then I can overcome this problem, which will become an increasing issue as different products prefer different sample rates.

thanks
Phil
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#652730 - 04/23/21 12:10 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Allow BIAB and REALBAND to operate at sample rates of 48000 and 44100 [Re: philosofree]
Registered: 12/20/00
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jford Offline
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Also, I have discovered that onboard sound cards on laptops for a number of vendors now seem to be locked into only 48,000. While, serious work will be done using an external USB sound module, when you're working remotely or away from your desk, you're stuck with whatever the computer has.

I recently bought a new HP Omen laptop, which I love, but the onboard soundcard lets you choose either 48,000 or, well, nothing else.
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#652731 - 04/23/21 12:24 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Allow BIAB and REALBAND to operate at sample rates of 48000 and 44100 [Re: philosofree]
Registered: 07/12/00
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Matt Finley Offline
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Yes, an option would avoid this problem.

+1
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#652734 - 04/23/21 01:22 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Allow BIAB and REALBAND to operate at sample rates of 48000 and 44100 [Re: Matt Finley]
Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 427
justanoldmuso Offline
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Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 427
ALL.
i'm sorry, but i'm a dissenting voice on 48k.
44.1/16 has been a standard for years for audio work.

jford just go into your win sound devices >> advanced tab and youll see various sampling rate/bit depth selections available via drop down clik, easy peasy.
includeing 24 bit etc etc. you can change from 48k to 44.1/16 there in the dialog.

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/solved-how-to-change-the-sound-output-rate-to/5a6fa5b9-cda6-4def-8dfe-36c291c4f4f8
NOTE second post down by richard eiler !
notice the sample rate selection if you page down to the second dialog at above link. you should see a load of options.

on any laptop ive seen running win, you can set to 44.1 16 bit.
i would be v surprised if the omen was any different on win 10.

also check this hp link
https://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Notebook-Audio/Set-Audio-Sample-Rate-on-Realtek-Audio/td-p/7209271
notice the advanced tab selection ?
also lots of info on you tube jford.
you might need a driver update also.
lots of info on hp site if you search re gthis problem.

best
old muso.


Edited by justanoldmuso (04/23/21 02:29 PM)
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#652749 - 04/23/21 03:34 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Allow BIAB and REALBAND to operate at sample rates of 48000 and 44100 [Re: philosofree]
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 21811
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Offline
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Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
You'll have to take my word that Jford knows about sample rates. I, too, have encountered equipment with a fixed sample rate of 48K. And if you are doing anything with video software, that will want to run at 48K. I think the original poster has a point and it would be helpful if BIAB could support a choice of sample rates.
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#652760 - 04/23/21 04:04 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Allow BIAB and REALBAND to operate at sample rates of 48000 and 44100 [Re: Matt Finley]
Registered: 12/27/03
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MarioD Offline
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+1
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#652765 - 04/23/21 04:45 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Allow BIAB and REALBAND to operate at sample rates of 48000 and 44100 [Re: MarioD]
Registered: 01/07/20
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justanoldmuso Offline
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Registered: 01/07/20
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Matt.
i'm well aware of 48k with respect.
the problem (and i would like a buck every time ive seen it on friends win pc's) is incorrect sound device settings/set ups often.
please delve on you tube matt and on pc manufacturers sites like hp etc , and do google searches on difficulty setting 44.1/16 on some systems, and youll find many reasons. hp's own site has threads on this topic/solutions.

either a win update reset something (just one reason why i keep my recording daw off the net ) OR the on board sound driver needs updateing OR the user doesnt know bout the advanced tab in sound device properties and how to set it.
ive never had a pc i couldnt set to 44.1/16 matt.

matt, one reason i buy refurbs vs buying new is my refurb guys set the darn pc up RIGHT in the first place. includeing sound devices.
whereas often with new pc's one buys, one has to often update drivers. there is also bloat on new systems. another reason i stick with non bloated refurbs.

recently a very close friend didnt listen to me bout refurbs , and bought a new pc and had various teething problems. and now says to me repeatedly "next time i'll listen and buy refurb".
in summary there can often be a period of teething problems //set up issues with new systems. ive seen it many many times.
and YES i still believe the on board sound on the omen can be set to 44.1/16. i suspect a setting or a driver update is the issue.
if its the omen i'm thinking of , properly set up with that nice processor,, it should perform great.

would suggest jford take omen into a qualified pc tech and get it set up correctly. fyi matt a guy near me makes a small fortune yearly setting up pc's for people that bought them new boxed elsewhere, only to find teething problems etc.

frankly , if were me ; for being away from home i would buy one of those el cheapo behr um usb interfaces i could stuff in a pocket.

the other issue for me with 48k is, will it grow like topsy; and will users then demand other various higher sampling rates later like 192 or or or.
one sees it all the time on gearslutz matt.
oh lets do it all at 96 or 192. and then the pc cant handle it of course , cos its a junk processor.

(which was why , going back to a previous post of mine,
it would be nice if biab had an advanced warning system,
warning of overload.)

respect.
oldmuso
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#652789 - 04/23/21 07:17 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Allow BIAB and REALBAND to operate at sample rates of 48000 and 44100 [Re: philosofree]
Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 12149
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
jford Offline
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Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 12149
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
Quote:
jford just go into your win sound devices >> advanced tab and youll see various sampling rate/bit depth selections available via drop down clik, easy peasy.
includeing 24 bit etc etc. you can change from 48k to 44.1/16 there in the dialog.


Muso, nope. Doesn't work. 48k is it. I've already researched it and a lot of laptop onboard cards are now locked at 48K. I can choose between 16 and 24 bit, but not the sampling rate. Not so easy peasey. Some folks have been able to track down some esoteric drivers to make the change, but by and large, they are difficult to find and are sometimes device specific (a few Lenovo folks were able to get it to work, but only on Lenovo machines). I've tried a few for my HP that were supposed to work, but they didn't.

Lots of folks out there are asking for the same thing, because some of their music software won't work. It's a thing.
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Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win10Pro64 32GB 2x1TB SSD + 2TB SATA
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#652791 - 04/23/21 07:48 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Allow BIAB and REALBAND to operate at sample rates of 48000 and 44100 [Re: philosofree]
Registered: 02/06/17
Posts: 26
Loc: Sydney NSW
Keith44 Online   sad
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/06/17
Posts: 26
Loc: Sydney NSW
philosofree has the problem that if the other people on JamKazam are using 48000hz he has to also, otherwise he cant join in - besides it is their preferred rate. Other people may prefer higher rates - the should have the choice - I dont live in norties.

Keith


Edited by Keith44 (04/23/21 07:52 PM)
Edit Reason: Adding

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#652821 - 04/24/21 04:08 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Allow BIAB and REALBAND to operate at sample rates of 48000 and 44100 [Re: Keith44]
Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 427
justanoldmuso Offline
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Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 427
jFORD.
re fixed at 48k. that is CRAZY.
interesting to note, i'm hearing bout more and more probs//teething issues from people//friends buying new systems these days.
that omen is not cheap. for a little more money you could probably have purchased a lovely turnkey laptop specifically built for recording studio use which would give you high trak and plug in counts to boot. as utilised by lots of big recording studios.
heres a builder i note some reaper users use with good testimonials.

https://studiocat.com/opencart2/

and there are many others. eg silentpc and scan audio uk.
just ask on pro recording forums like gearslutz(now gearspace.com) and recording.org etc for references.

if were me i would return omen and get a turnkey recording studio laptop if you have a decent budget.

the issue i have with adding more sampling rates to biab is from a computer programmers perspective. imho there are bb features wanted by bb users for years that still remain unfulfilled includeing my own eg pipelines bars view for bb i really wish i had.

thus adding xtra sampling rates has code impacts obviously to the bb code base and of course the new bb plug in has to have anything new added also.

if you must keep omen , then only solution it seems is to get an external cheap usb interface.

the issue is highly weird. sigh.

best to you
oldmuso.


Edited by justanoldmuso (04/24/21 04:11 AM)
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#652848 - 04/24/21 06:57 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Allow BIAB and REALBAND to operate at sample rates of 48000 and 44100 [Re: philosofree]
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 21811
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 21811
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Thanks for all that urging about what I should know and do, oldmuso. I assure you I will give it all the consideration it deserves. The good news here is that PG Music decides what requests are useful, and the priority to implement them.
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#652857 - 04/24/21 07:30 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Allow BIAB and REALBAND to operate at sample rates of 48000 and 44100 [Re: Matt Finley]
Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 427
justanoldmuso Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 427
Matt.
i'm fully respectfull of your talents, background in music, and the fact you help so many people on here.

i'm just concerned , like some other pg users, that there are long outstanding bb feature issues that are yet to be addressed.

anyways , to put things in perspective, i'm just so happy to be around to do my silly songs.
when i was haveing a difficult surgery my dear wife bought me my upgrade to 2020 bb/rb at the time. it lifted my spirits immensely at a difficult time.


i wish you every happiness.
best
oldmuso
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#652862 - 04/24/21 07:50 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Allow BIAB and REALBAND to operate at sample rates of 48000 and 44100 [Re: philosofree]
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 21811
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
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BIAB would be a perfect way to speed recovery of spirits after major surgery. Congratulations to your wife.

You may not realize that the current forum software began in the summer of 2000 and restarted the post counts. A few of us were here several years before that. I think if you were to read all my posts, you would see I understand and support fixing those longstanding requests. I helped identify some of them and am still lobbying to fix them. Last week, I suggested to the developers it was time to suspend all new features except RealTracks and do a complete rewrite of the code. I’ve been requesting to fix the core functionality for decades.

In addition to music, I have a few computer skills as well, from teaching college computer science for thirty years and from building every one of my computers since 1983. I’m also one of a few people in the world who sold computers to IBM.

Cheers.
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#655362 - 05/12/21 03:06 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Allow BIAB and REALBAND to operate at sample rates of 48000 and 44100 [Re: philosofree]
Registered: 05/19/20
Posts: 694
Simon - PG Music Offline
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Registered: 05/19/20
Posts: 694
Part of this issue is related to driver type - ASIO, WAS, or MME.

WAS and MME can both operate in non-exclusive mode, and BB typically uses a resampler for any audio sent to it that doesn't match the driver. So the driver can be set to 48khz, 192khz, whatever, and BIAB can operate in 44,100 if it wants to. This typically works fine on any hardware that's set to at least 44,100hz, and I've personally tested that up to 192khz.

ASIO requires the hardware to synchronize to the software, and generally allows only one application to talk to the audio interface at a time. Most ASIO drivers work this way, with very few exceptions - for example the Focusrite driver currently allows multiple clients, though all clients must be set to the same sample rate. Currently BIAB requests a sample rate of 44.1khz when using ASIO and doesn't use a resampler - I'll ask the dev team to see if it's possible for BB to request a higher sample rate or use the resampler or something. This could potentially add latency, as the resampling process takes CPU time.

ASIO is a fairly old driver type - it was introduced in the 90's (1996 iirc). WAS was introduced with Windows Vista in 2007. If you're using multiple programs at the same time, you're much better off using WAS/WASAPI or MME (technically MME ports through WASAPI anyway).

*edit*

RealBand can already operate at 48k and 96k using ASIO, and you can select the sample rate from Options > Preferences > Audio > Audio File Type.


Edited by Simon - PG Music (05/12/21 04:39 PM)
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