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#639260 - 01/31/21 02:29 AM [Beginners Forum] why does BIAB not always play the chords I type in?
Registered: 01/25/07
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Leovigild Offline
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Using BIAB 2016, about to upgrade to 2021. Does 2021 fix this frustrating issue,that when I type in the chord that I want (let's say 13b9#11, sus2, sus chords and altered dominants generally)the arrangement refuses to play it and plays a simplified chord instead? Why can't I type in ANY chord that I want in ANY style and then hear it? Is there a global override for this problem in 2021?

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#639264 - 01/31/21 04:03 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: why does BIAB not always play the chords I type in? [Re: Leovigild]
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VideoTrack Offline
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I think this depends on the RealTracks you choose (presuming you choose RealTracks for your arrangement). This this then gets down to the exact phrases that the individual musicians performed, and their interpretation of chords and inversions.

MIDI is possibly more regimented/forgiving.

There are options to limit how BiaB affects these. One of them is called 'Natural Arrangements', which was probably introduced about 2018 or so.
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#639265 - 01/31/21 04:30 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: why does BIAB not always play the chords I type in? [Re: Leovigild]
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Matt Finley Offline
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Yes, turn off Natural Arrangement. There are also a few ways to simplify or “jazz down” the chords, and those should be off.

MIDI should give you the exact chord you requested. RealTracks may not have a particular chord if the artist recording the track did not play one.

Sus4, 7sus4, and 9sus4 chords should be OK. 7alt should also be OK because the player has a choice on the fifth and the ninth.

Sus2 chords are interpreted (converted) to 2 chords by the program, as are add2 chords.
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#641737 - 02/12/21 10:53 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: why does BIAB not always play the chords I type in? [Re: Leovigild]
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Dzjang Offline
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Sad thing, really.

I already posted about this earlier

https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=605841&page=1

And this youtube vid
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#643018 - 02/20/21 02:28 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: why does BIAB not always play the chords I type in? [Re: Leovigild]
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Leovigild Offline
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Thanks, Dzjang, I'm reading through all the posts on your 2019 thread.

I'm wondering if it's possible to go into editable notation, write the voicings you want, and save them to the arrangement? I tried that once for desired chord voicings to replace the BIAB voicings, but they wouldn't save. Something I neglected to do?

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#643023 - 02/20/21 03:26 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: why does BIAB not always play the chords I type in? [Re: Leovigild]
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Bob Calver Online   content
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i think midi is your only chance - especially if you are using guitar realtracks.

for example C13b9#11 contains the following notes (i think!) C - E - G - Bb - Db - F# - A

that's seven notes so it's impossible on a six string instrument. and several of the notes are on adjacent frets on the same string - can't be done. a guitarist has to choose what he plays. that's the idea of natural arrangements. as a guitarist i'd choose to play the simple major triad as a starter with maybe one or two added notes that 'sound right' in context or just part of the chord which wouldn't then be C13b9#11.

but i couldn't play the chord you want. as guitar and keyboards are the only chord playing instruments you might have more luck with keyboards (yes ukulele and banjo play chords too but they have even less strings!). i'm a 'cowboy chord' guitarist but watching jazz guitarists over the years and learning dance band chords many years ago, movement is often created by just changing fingering to include notes that move the song along. which means part chords and compromise.

i'm not surprised that guitarists like brent mason haven't recorded C13b9#11 in a RealTrack. they couldn't. I'd be surprised if Oliver Gannon as a jazz soloist has either.

is it absolutely essential that you get all seven notes or is a selection of notes that sound right good enough? so a chord synonym might be available. for example on a guitar, seventh flat nines can be played if you omit the root note and play a diminished chord based on the root of any of the four remaining notes. diminished is an easy chord shape and repeats in several places on the fretboard so a guitarist would choose a four note chord that was an easy transition from the chord before and to the chord following. and would a piano player really play the seven notes in C13b9#11 together as a chord hit? maybe a keyboard player can comment on that - or would they play a combination of notes that works harmonically to move the song along?

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#643091 - 02/20/21 09:57 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: why does BIAB not always play the chords I type in? [Re: Bob Calver]
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Leovigild Offline
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Bob,
I'm a guitar AND keyboard player, not that great at either except at chords and harmony. So I know many voicings for pretty much all chords--yes, on guitar you have to compromise a bit but you will still get a rich sounding chord using guitar voicings that have been worked out by all the great players and teachers of the past.

And it's the same with keyboard except there are many more options for voicings. However, great keyboard players generally DON'T put every chord factor into voicings and very often omit tones that muddy up the sound (like 5ths and even 3rds in some cases).

I'm just getting re-started with BIAB after years of neglect, so I'm sticking with pure MIDI right now until I get up to speed with the program.

What I need to know is how to edit BIAB chord voicings in editable notation into ones that I want, then making them stick into the arrangement.

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#643092 - 02/20/21 10:05 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: why does BIAB not always play the chords I type in? [Re: Leovigild]
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Dzjang Offline
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Hey Leovigild

Everything you save in the stylemaker’s piano or guitar has to be C7. For most chords, biab translates it just fine,

But once you want certain chords with #11 or the 13b9 Bob refers to, biab can’t handle it properly.

The way I go about it is
limiting the color tones, like 9ths, 13ths in the styles (which is sad, but ...)
using slash chords (lydian over maj 7th in the bass for phrygian)
Trying to hear the sounds in my head and playing over them, rather than relying on biab to play them correctly.

Bob is very accurate in his analysis. Biab handles 7th chords. And the rest is often inaccurate. As a non jazz player, Bob nails it. Upper structures or triads are often the way to go on guitar. Don’t play more than 4 notes in a chord.

That being said, Oliver Gannon has a jazz instruction soft here on PG music, about playing jazz chords. It’s very intricate and influenced by Ed Bickert. And he plays a lot of very dense and wonderful 5 note chords on his guitar.

Playing that behind a soloist would be limiting, but for chord soloing, a great soft. Essential jazz guitar vol 1 and 2: high and low voicings.

So, Oliver Gannon and a lot of pg musicians (check the modern jazz piano soft, it’s great) can play intricate chords, but the algorithm can’t turn them into styles.

Too bad, cause it would be great for learning.
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#643094 - 02/20/21 10:08 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: why does BIAB not always play the chords I type in? [Re: Leovigild]
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Matt Finley Offline
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While I play neither instrument, my understanding is that a keyboard player or guitarist will often omit the root if there is a bass player, and often the fifth. In the case of the #11, otherwise known as a flatted fifth pitched up an octave, this is near the top of the chord so it's essential to play it.
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#643127 - 02/20/21 01:46 PM [Beginners Forum] Re: why does BIAB not always play the chords I type in? [Re: Leovigild]
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MarioD Offline
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Originally Posted By: Leovigild
.....................

What I need to know is how to edit BIAB chord voicings in editable notation into ones that I want, then making them stick into the arrangement.


You can make your edits in either the editable notation view or the piano roll view, see attached picture. Just be sure to freeze whatever track(s) you edit because it you don't a regenerate will wipe out all of your edits. When frozen a regenerate will not change any of your edits.


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#643184 - 02/21/21 12:35 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: why does BIAB not always play the chords I type in? [Re: Leovigild]
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Leovigild Offline
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Thanks, Mario, I will try that. So just hit "freeze track" immediately after editing, no intermediate steps?

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#643199 - 02/21/21 03:32 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: why does BIAB not always play the chords I type in? [Re: Leovigild]
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Bob Calver Online   content
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yes edit and then freeze and save so hopefully by now you can edit and freeze midi tracks but there might be a few things that could make life easier.

pages 532 - 533 of the manual lists chords BIAB recognizes. maybe you can find a close approximation to what you want that will minimise editing. i'm not sure how BIAB decides what chords to play if it isn't one it recognises (which is why its not playing the chord you enter) so working with BIAB instead of against by choosing a chord it should recognise may mean less edits.

also page 129 - 134 describes chord entry - including from a midi keyboard so you could play in the notes you want the chord to include and see if BIAB recognises it rather than editing it later - i imagine it will automatically substitute a chord it knows that uses the notes you want instead of being tied to what you would enter on the qwerty keyboard. it might suggest a chord synonym for example.

thinking out of the BIAB box, if you open the file in RealBand and edit it, the midi won't regenerate so no need to freeze - just save as a seq file.

RB also gives you the ability to generate several versions of a complete track and to choose bits from each to make up a composite track.

also in RB you could try midi supertracks. assuming the chords you end up with are BIAB recognized you could try any of the jazz keyboard tracks to see if they fit better than the style based BIAB midi parts. and in RB if you don't like a couple of bars, multiriff will give you 7 alternatives to choose from.

there might be ways of getting BIAB and RB to work for you and not against you rather than letting it do what it wants and editing it later. or at least it might get you closer and minimise editng.



Edited by Bob Calver (02/21/21 03:35 AM)

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#643200 - 02/21/21 03:33 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: why does BIAB not always play the chords I type in? [Re: Leovigild]
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VideoTrack Offline
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Originally Posted By: Leovigild
Thanks, Mario, I will try that. So just hit "freeze track" immediately after editing, no intermediate steps?

You should be able to freeze the track, and then save the song (under a revised name if required) which will also save the frozen tracks.
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#643202 - 02/21/21 03:46 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: why does BIAB not always play the chords I type in? [Re: Leovigild]
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Bob Calver Online   content
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and i forgot to mention the chord builder (dealt with between pages 129 - 134) which might help you optimise the harmonic progression


Edited by Bob Calver (02/21/21 03:46 AM)

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#643734 - 02/24/21 12:02 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: why does BIAB not always play the chords I type in? [Re: Leovigild]
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Leovigild Offline
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Appreciate all the advice, Thanx!

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#643884 - 02/25/21 06:14 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: why does BIAB not always play the chords I type in? [Re: MarioD]
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williamjrosen Offline
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is there a way to copy and paste the chord to other areas of the song? i get how to enter it in notation mode but i want to use the chord voicing throughout,

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#643902 - 02/25/21 10:23 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: why does BIAB not always play the chords I type in? [Re: Leovigild]
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Jim Fogle Offline
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williamjrosen,

Welcome to the forum and to Band-in-a-Box. Do you want to know how to copy in Band-in-a-Box or RealBand?

In Band-in-a-Box you can use the keyboard shortcut ALT+C, or Edit > Copy Special, to open the Copy Chords and/or Melody window.

In RealBand you can use the keyboard shortcut Ctrl+C, or Edit > Copy to open the Copy window.

In the future you may find that your question will receive more views and answers if you start a new thread with your question.


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#643905 - 02/25/21 10:40 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: why does BIAB not always play the chords I type in? [Re: Jim Fogle]
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MarioD Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jim Fogle
williamjrosen,

.......................

In Band-in-a-Box you can use the keyboard shortcut ALT+C, or Edit > Copy Special, to open the Copy Chords and/or Melody window.

...............


Another way is to highlight the measures you want to copy, right click on one of those measures, select copy, right click on the measure you want to start copying to and select paste.
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#643908 - 02/25/21 11:22 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: why does BIAB not always play the chords I type in? [Re: MarioD]
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Matt Finley Offline
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Originally Posted By: MarioD
Another way is to highlight the measures you want to copy, right click on one of those measures, select copy, right click on the measure you want to start copying to and select paste.
Thanks Mario! I didn't know this works now. I recall asking for it many, many years ago.
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