|
Log in to post
|
Print Thread |
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,074
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,074 |
Quote:
To carry on the gospel analogy, I remain a TC Helicon agnostic. To me, it always sounds kind of tinny and artificial.
using the same analogy, this is one of those topics that people tend to pursue with religious fervor (or not)
All gear has its limitations in terms of what it can do to improve a performance. If the performance sucks, most gear won't fix it. But, used correctly, it can often make dramatic improvements. Vocal processors are perhaps the most difficult of musical gear to "dial in". Vocals naturally have a lot of variation. Too much variation makes the listener uncomfortable. Too much symmetry sounds canned.
The goal is to find the sweet spot where music does not sound artificially perfect, but it also doesn't sound notably flawed. Just as it is difficult to learn how to compress, EQ and mix music, it is foolish not to endure that learning curve, because the end results are so much better.
Likewise, it is a hassle to learn how to use vocal processing to achieve a natural and pleasing result, but the end result, once you know how to do it, is highly desirable.
I have noticed that a growing trend in pop music is the unabashed use of vocal processing, where the vocals are treated as an instrument, and purposefully contrived to sound mechanical and synthesized. To do this is a highly artistic and personal choice, and not everyone likes the way it sounds. But, suffice to say, it appears to be a growing trend, especially in the cutting edge genres.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,074
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,074 |
Quote:
I have noticed that a growing trend in pop music is the unabashed use of vocal processing, where the vocals are treated as an instrument, and purposefully contrived to sound mechanical and synthesized. To do this is a highly artistic and personal choice, and not everyone likes the way it sounds. But, suffice to say, it appears to be a growing trend, especially in the cutting edge genres.
I should probably add that there is another trend in the direction of singing off key. This is more noticeable among home recording enthusiasts in places like Song Ramp. You don't hear it nearly as much on professional recordings, where they tend to weigh in on the heavily processed paradigm. Bob Dylan and Sonny Bono are two examples of professional artists whose singing is neither pitch perfect nor pitch corrected. But Cher Bono is a good example of a bad example of somebody whose singing IS pitch corrected and canned.
Many of these people would rather err on the side of sounding natural even if it offends the musical sensibilities of the listener. But then, over-processing also offends a different sensibility.
I think there is value in both approaches. My own preference is in the direction of moderately processed music that sounds natural, but doesn't contain bad notes or overly misaligned phrasing. I set that as a goal, not as a claim of having already achieved it.
On my recent submissions, I purposefully skipped the vocal processor with the assumption that some misalignment sounds natural and desirable. But many of the observations revealed that I had allowed too much variation, and it left the listener feeling uncomfortable. Interesting stuff.
As we analyze, the sweet spot becomes visible. It's like looking for ghosts in a smoky room with strobe lights
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,887
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,887 |
Hi marc, How's things? Hope all is well with you  Thank you for having a listen to "Feel The Power". From past posts, I know that you like your rhymes perfect, in the style of theater music, so I can appreciate the jarring effect of rock/God's. These days I tend to follow a Steve Seskin approach and look to assonance rhymes if I can't find something a little closer to the mark. To be honest, though, it embarrasses me to admit that I hadn't thought of "stone" instead of "rock"! Thank you for that, I'll let it swim around in my head for a little bit and see what happens. I think it's brilliant how comments from people such as yourself, here on the forums, can open doors in the imagination. You always give me ideas that I'm thankful for. I'll be looking at those spots that you have drawn my attention to. TC Helicon is convenient and it sounds reasonable to my ears. I appreciate that it's got that "electronicness" about it, though. My interest is writing songs and, as it is, I don't have too much time to be able to do that. Using TC Helicon makes it just that little bit easier to chase my hobby as a writer of songs rather than being an arranger of songs. Thanks heaps for your comments about my singing I'm still smiling. As you know, I don't think of myself as a singer - well, perhaps a little bit more these days than I used to. Take care, Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,696
Expert
|
|
Expert
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,696 |
About the TC voices, Noel - try to reduce the harsh, brittle aspect in the 1k-3k range and see what happens - then maybe apply a bit in the 160-300 to "warm them up" - might mask the tinniness just enough.
Ian
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,887
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,887 |
Hey Pat, I like the way you think  Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,887
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,887 |
Quote:
About the TC voices, Noel - try to reduce the harsh, brittle aspect in the 1k-3k range and see what happens - then maybe apply a bit in the 160-300 to "warm them up" - might mask the tinniness just enough.
Thanks for the tip, Ian. I owe you one!
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,074
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,074 |
Quote:
About the TC voices, Noel - try to reduce the harsh, brittle aspect in the 1k-3k range and see what happens - then maybe apply a bit in the 160-300 to "warm them up" - might mask the tinniness just enough.
Ian
Ian,
the very specific nature of your recommendations indicates that you must use some kind of reference for your EQing. Can you point me in the general direction of your source?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,696
Expert
|
|
Expert
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,696 |
Pat Before my hearing really dropped a year ago I was doing some experimenting with eq screening the TC harmony track - noticed it sounded edgy and tried to take the edge off and warm it up - just enough so that it didn't stand out behind the main vocal. Check this thread from last December about what certain ranges of frequencies can do. http://www.pgmusic.com/ubbthreads/showfl...true#Post248681Hope this is what you wanted. Ian
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,646
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,646 |
Like it. Nice and bouncy! Great message! Listen To My MusicRead My Blog
My TunesPsalm 57:7 My heart, O God, is steadfast, my heart is steadfast; I will sing and make music.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 484
Journeyman
|
|
Journeyman
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 484 |
This is truly is one from down south! I love the southern gospel sound coupled with the jazz guitar. A new direction. One thing you never hear in Southern Gospel is a guitar... let alone, a nice sounding jazz guitar! SG would sound a lot more fun if they had more of that!
There is one tweak instrumentally on the end that I would modify to rise up to the vocal ending. The vocals sound like it resolved completely, yet the music dropped off rather suddenly and somewhat out of sync with each other. I would polish the ending to match up to the strong vocal close and that would push it over the top.
If I were to add anything in my opinion, more of the jazz gutar fills and perhaps have it punch in some nice chordal accents using the same voice setting for taste.
RickeG
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 996
Expert
|
|
Expert
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 996 |
Quote:
I know that you like your rhymes perfect
…at the very least, Noel!
everything fine here, thanks - but we could do with some Aussie temperatures.
I can just picture you sitting there now, jotting down a line then crossing it out muttering into your XXXX "nah mate, that would never get past Marc!"
I had a few trial runs with "stone" which I didn't include yesterday as the rhyme still isn't perfect.*
I very much share your songwriter’s view that what we really want to do is get the song in the can as quickly as possible in an acceptable way and move on to the next one.
With regard to non-lead vocal lines (whether harms or 2ble tracking) I wonder if it’s not quicker simply to record them - using the settings already entered for the lead line. By the time you’ve messed around with all the various settings and permutations in harmonising software you could have recorded quite a few takes.
* best of these possibly
Then there was Jonah who was flound'ring in the ocean
He started sinking like a stone
A big ol' fish just scooped him up and swam him safe to shore
God's light once more had shone
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,696
Expert
|
|
Expert
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,696 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,074
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,074 |
There is a heirarchy of cheese here somewhere. Maybe we can nail it down.
The best lyrics are composed with words that express the idea vividly, but without resorting to word combinations that have been overused
Therefore, while finding perfect rhymes is desirable in one way, they are the very same word combinations that are most likely to be trite and overused.
A NEAR rhyme, especially when it manages to capture the essence of the idea, is a marvelous thing. Even more marvelous is a perfect rhyme that manages to employ a combination of words that haven't already been married in thousands of well-known songs.
BUT, a near rhyme that adds nothing to the mix except a matching vowel sound pretty much ALWAYS comes across as a failure to find the right word.
If you can only have one, I prefer substance over form every time. Vivid imagery and clever phrasing takes precedence over mechanical use of terms.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 484
Journeyman
|
|
Journeyman
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 484 |
That is why I write only instrumentals.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,696
Expert
|
|
Expert
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,696 |
Pat - you nailed it, I couldn't agree more. Apologies Noel for detouring things a bit. Keep your good thing going. Ian
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,074
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,074 |
Noel,
If I may hijack the thread again..
This topic of lyrics has set my mind in motion and I can't stop thinking about it. Not only are word combinations subject to cliche, but the very ideas we write songs about are subject to the same cliches. Some of the best lyrics stand out because they approach a common topic in an uncommon way.
For the sake of discussion, let's look at the song you have posted here: a song about Jonah, a story which is very familiar to most people in Western civilization.
This story can be approached directly, or indirectly. The direct approach would be to paraphrase the existing details of the story, but in lyrical form. IMHO, the direct approach is where we are most likely to experience cliche problems, because the most commonly understood way of looking at anything is the way it is most commonly discussed, hence the cliche.
A somewhat less direct approach would be to consider the elements of the story in new ways, especially if there is symbolism that can turn a one dimensional understanding (one simple interpretation) into a multi-dimensional interpretation (many possible interpretations, and the listener gets to decide).
As I read the biblical account of Jonah, my mind starts asking questions. Is there a relationship between the fact that Jonah spent 3 days in the belly of the whale, and Christ spent 3 days in the tomb? Is there symbolic significance to the many facets of the story? Or are they just random details?
Bonding one idea to another seeming unrelated idea opens up all sorts of interpretive lyrical possibilities, and virtually guarantees that you will take the lyrics to places where nobody has gone before. (my example, however, is old territory and has been thoroughly explored in theology and song... I just submitted it as a contrast to a direct restatement of the story)
Sorry for the side trip. These conversations are so interesting, and I love to hear how different people stir the creative process.
(OK, back to the original topic)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,887
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,887 |
Hi PGFantastic, Thanks for your support! This was a terrific song to write. It came together relatively painlessly (well, by comparison to my usual songwriting efforts). I'm looking forward to hearing your next new work All the best, Robert. Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,887
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,887 |
Hi RickeG, Quote:
That is why I write only instrumentals.
There's a lot of merit in that thought
Regards,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,887
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,887 |
Hi marc, Thank you for taking so much time to compile your thoughts and post them. I always appreciate new ideas and new trains of thinking. I'm still playing around with your suggestions and letting them take me where the muse leads All the best, Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,887
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,887 |
Hey Pat and Ian, Wow! That's some discussion you boys are having. Never be concerned about hijacking my thread. The more, the merrier I always say Here's my tuppence worth... (I'm not sure if that expression means anything in the US.) Rhyme in songs (and poems, I guess) serves a number of functions. Amongst other things, lyric-rhyme can: highlight important ideas; lead a listener across the terrain of the song; create emotion; accelerate or decelerate lyric motion (which also impacts on the emotion of the lyric). To my ears, perfect rhyme has an unparalleled sense of completion about it. When a perfect rhyme occurs, my ears hear the end of a lyric thought. This is Pat Pattison's school of thinking and one that I subscribe to. When a rhyme moves further away from perfect ryhme, the sense of completion is reduced. This can be used very effectively to create additional emotion (because it leaves the listener a little bit up in the air). I guess it's a bit like using a minor chord in a major key or maybe adding a 6 or 9 to a major chord (that is, the effect of the chord is still heard but it's resolution is less steadfast). Perfect rhyme is one of the tools that the genre of musical theater often employs. Rodgers and Hammerstein works are good examples of this. To my way of thinking, the name "perfect rhyme" is unfortunate because it suggests that it is the "best" rhyme. This is not the case. It's simply the name of a type of rhyme. In my head, I compare perfect rhyme in lyrics to perfect fifths in music. A perfect fifth is not the "best" fifth, it's simply the name of one of a family of fifths and all types of fifth have their place in musical compositions. In his updated book, 2nd edition, Pattison uses the song "Can't Be Really Gone" by Gary Burr and recorded by Tim McGraw as a good example of how a lack of perfect rhyme can enhance a lyric's emotion. It's also a great song to show how using a verse with an odd number of phrases (5 lyric phrases per verse in this case) creates an unbalanced effect that again leaves the listener a little off-centre. Once again, this helps to add to the song's emotion. If you are interested, here's a link to McGraw's version of the song on YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmbv9IMroM8In my opinion, Burr has written a terrific lyric and one that well captures the the longing and loss that the singer is feeling. If you look the lyric up on the 'net and simply read it aloud, you'll feel how the lyric still works without music. FOR PAT MARR: A note on my creative processPat, these days when I write a song, I always look at the ends of lyric lines and see if I can make them suggest a story all by themselves, without surrounding text. I'm not always successful in doing this but I keep it in mind because these natural stops in lyric motion are more strongly emphasized to the listener and thus are more important and more memorable. In the Jonah verse, I have ocean / rock / shore / God's. These words pass my test in that they, by themselves, create good, suggestive imagery in my mind. Another test that I apply is to look at the power positions of the first and last lines of a verse. Again, because of the way the average human brain works, these lines are emphasized to the listener. In each of my verses, I try to make the first and last lines literally summarize the verse. For example: Then there was Jonah who was floundering in the ocean
His rescue was a miracle of God'sTo my thinking, these lines pass this little test of mine. All the above being said, though, I'm always on the lookout to make what I have written stronger and better. For this reason, I really appreciate comments from other people (musician or not). I find such comments very valuable because they stimulate my thinking in ways that would never have happened had the comment not been made. Anyway... as I said, that's just my tuppence worth All the best, Noel
Last edited by Noel96; 03/12/10 03:22 AM.
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
User Video: Next-Level AI Music Editing with ACE Studio and Band-in-a-Box®
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 German for Windows is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 für Windows Deutsch ist verfügbar!
Wir waren fleißig und haben über 50 neue Funktionen und eine erstaunliche Sammlung neuer Inhalte hinzugefügt, darunter 222 RealTracks, neue RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, "Songs with Vocals" Artist Performance Sets, abspielbare RealTracks Set 3, abspielbare RealDrums Set 2, zwei neue Sets von "RealDrums Stems", XPro Styles PAK 6, Xtra Styles PAK 17 und mehr!
Paket | Was ist Neu
Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums66
Topics81,641
Posts735,362
Members38,525
| |
Most Online2,537
Jan 19th, 2020
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
There are no members with birthdays on this day. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
. . . how about incorporating Marc's "stone" and round the verse off like this:
Dansk
Deutsch - Windows
Español
Français - Windows
Italiano - Windows
Nederlands
Polski
Português
Svenskt
русский
Japanese
Simplified Chinese
Traditional Chinese
Korean