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They are fantastic but they are not "me". Or anyone else except the guys who created them in the first place.
Thoughts?
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I have written so many pieces since taking up Band in a Box, though recently I have come to the same conclusion. Just because I know some rather nice chord sequences, the music is not actually mine at all. I didn’t write the individual parts of the backing track, only the lead guitar parts are mine alone. That will not stop me enjoying using Band in a Box though, it’s too much fun.
Last edited by TRYUK; 01/29/21 10:10 PM.
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Hi Scott
I don’t look at the demo songs as any more than just that, a demo of the Style in use. Surely that is the intention. Not as a basic backing track for your own song.
You need to go back to the raw style then add your own melody and soloist parts and play with the A&B changes to get the effect that you want like a drum break on part change etc. regenerate to get different versions.
Just my thoughts,
Mike
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My mistake, I missed the bit about demo songs. Though I think the rest of my post is valid.
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Chord progressions are not covered under copyright. Other than guilt why not use them? And why guilt when the melody and arrangement is yours? And if the guilt cannot be overcome change a chord or two  Bud
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TRYUK.
you make an interesting point, but i'm not sure i completely agree. interesting topic though.
often a song is a group effort to make it come to fruition.
in this case biab is a tool and part of the effort for many people.
for example if you have a song youve done in a huge recording studio with ace session musicians. and it becomes a huge hit.
its STILL YOUR SONG, with your lyrics, your chords, your
arrangement etc etc. like it is in biab.
it could be argued of course that studio engineers plus session musicians made it a hit. as happened numerous times over the years with many songs, after a songwriter demoed a song rough mix.
for example i once had a song i knew was pretty decent, but i could never get right useing a 8 trak tape recorder.
so i went into a friends big studio, who brought in some top flight session musos, and after listening to my demo,
did exactly what i wanted and rocked the heck out of it.
i was so happy. the trouble is even tho i was charged a fair amount cos they liked the tune. i just didnt have the funds to do any more songs that way. the studio and the session musos were amazeing talents tho and wonderfull people.
thus in my case i have to use biab, cos , like most people i just cant afford big studios plus session musos always.
i have other serious family obligations. but at the same time i have , in my inner soul, the desire to create songs.
so what can i do ?
good topic for discussion.
best.
muso.
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 01/30/21 04:08 AM.
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Muso's reply is excellent and spot on. As a hobbyist I can not afford to go to a studio for any of my songs. I will add that I use BiaB because I can not play violin, cello, flutes, fiddle, etc so I rely on BiaB for add those parts.
Also there have been some fantastic collaborations here so if one doesn't want to totally depend on BiaB then ask for help. I'm sure someone here will collaborate with you.
As you probably already know I have a lot of me in my songs. That is because I mostly use the MIDI side of BiaB, a side that I feel many have neglected. With BiaB MIDI tracks, good sound sources, and even a limited MIDI working knowledge these tracks can come to life and they are much easier to edit. YMMV
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
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I don’t think anyone has yet mentioned that many of the songs are chords from standards, with changed melodies. I know this is true of the early jazz song demos. I could easily identify the song, and save the song under the ‘right’ name then remove the demo melody. Sometimes rhythm patterns or hits are missing because they would be distinctive and perhaps invite a copyright claim.
I don’t know if the other genres are this way. I also don’t know if most of the jazz demo songs are chords from standards, because I don’t claim to know all the standards.
PG Music does say somewhere that you can use what you create but don’t use the demo songs - words to that effect.
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You all make very good points, I guess we all use BiaB in our own unique ways. There is a degree of guilt in my case, and I know I am just putting this trip on myself.
A little history. I am now 66 and began playing bass guitar at 12, moving on to six string a few years later. Then I taught myself to play keyboards. I was in small local bands but hated the supposed practise sessions that seemed to be nothing more than [*****] fests between members.
So I left bands finally and decided to do it myself. Anyone remember the Fostex 4 track cassette recorders? I bought one of those and set about doing it all myself. Drum machines were very basic in those days and I was never happy with the sound of them so I bought a drum kit. Up until that point I recorded pretty much in silence, the drum kit was not popular with the family.
Years later I moved to Atari ST, the model name I forget, that was my first brush with BiaB. Many more years later I used Windows PC’s, then finally found my home on a Mac.
I could record pretty much play every part myself, even learning some basic fiddle/violin and wind instruments, though neither my strong point.
And then life hit me with several blows in a short time. I trapped a nerve in my neck which left me with almost no feeling in my left hand. That I can cope with to a degree. Then I woke one morning deaf in my left ear, went to the doctor, he sent me to hospital where I was told I had meningitis. I was operated on the same day, which was a success but has left me almost completely deaf in the left ear.
So that’s how I ended up on back on BiaB and on this forum. Yes I still have this nagging feeling of guilt that I am not playing every part of the music I write. But the more I use the software the more I find just how much I can change the individual parts nearer to what I have in my head.
Sorry this is a but long winded but perhaps it will explain my initial posting better. Will I continue to use BiaB, to sure I will, it allows me expression in a way words never can.
Edit: As an after thought, how did you all come to use Band in a Box?
Tim
Last edited by TRYUK; 01/30/21 05:34 AM.
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I think the line regarding the demos is that you can't render them out and call them yours. You can however, load it in BB, and then change the tempo, style, key, the chords, etc and by doing that, you are good to go.
I have noticed that they are designed essentially to demo the style and they are not necessarily songs ready to go, because they lack proper song structure in most cases. So I use them for inspiration. DO I like the demo's groove and feel...? If so, could I see working on a song in that style? If so.... maybe it's worth a look see.
But to be totally honest.... I think I've only ever really completed a song using that method, one time. Most of them are simply ideas that eventually just end up in my yearly folder that didn't really get off the ground let alone morph into a finished song.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Thanks a ton for the insightful responses. So many great points made. I think I can take away from this is that one, chord progressions can not be copyrighted. And two, that I can think of the RealBand musicians collaborating with me like bandmates. They play their various instruments (that I can't play) much better than I could. Why not use them? And without guilt? If they were "real" bandmates I would give them all a high five after every performance. Ha ha, hope this doesn't sound too AI creepy
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Does anyone else here feel guilty about not feeling guilty for using Realtracks demos..?
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There really isn't any difference between using a RealTrack, using an audio loop and hiring a session musician to perform on a recording. It's all audio you purchased and can use in your recordings. For RealTracks PG Music hired the musician and provided you with the recorded performance. For audio loops the loop studio hired the musician and studio. In all three cases the right to use the audio has been purchased by someone else and provided to you for a price.
Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1111) RB (5) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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@bloc-head: "Does anyone else here feel guilty about not feeling guilty for using Realtracks demos..?"
Opinion noted. Thanks for your input.
Last edited by Scott1578; 02/03/21 05:37 PM.
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@Jim Fogle:
"There really isn't any difference between using a RealTrack, using an audio loop and hiring a session musician to perform on a recording. It's all audio you purchased and can use in your recordings. For RealTracks PG Music hired the musician and provided you with the recorded performance. For audio loops the loop studio hired the musician and studio. In all three cases the right to use the audio has been purchased by someone else and provided to you for a price."
Sure, all true. But doesn't it feel a bit strange that the tracks you and I purchased are the same? Your musicians are also my musicians? Everyone here on BIAB has the same band members? Can we truly be unique in the development of our songs?.
Just thinking.
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But doesn't it feel a bit strange that the tracks you and I purchased are the same? Your musicians are also my musicians? Everyone here on BIAB has the same band members? Can we truly be unique in the development of our songs?.
I'd say Yes, we can truly be unique. If I tell the rhythm guitar player I want a funk style, and the drummer I want a smooth side stick for verse and hard snare for chorus, and the bass player I want a busy/funky bass line and keyboard player to give me some jazzy EP chords (all using this chord progression and time signature and Tempo map) .. if you choose the exact same styles I did using that 'same band', I doubt you'd end up with something like this - http://masteringmatters.com/stuff/Count_Me_Out.mp3The only tracks not generated were the horns and the lead guitar.. the rest were the 'same musicians you have'. Even the funky rhythm guitar you hardly notice until the fade at the end was generated. If you use the program in its simplest form (simply enter chords/style and generate) then you probably won't get as much variety, but the software does allow for some pretty amazing stuff if you push the possibilities a little. I don't care that "your musicians are my musicians"; have you ever read the credits on commercial recordings? This is quite a common occurrence. They're called Studio Musicians. There are a lot of styles/realtracks actually done by these same studio musicians who have played on a ton of recordings for various artists.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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"I'd say Yes, we can truly be unique. If I tell the rhythm guitar player I want a funk style, and the drummer I want a smooth side stick for verse and hard snare for chorus, and the bass player I want a busy/funky bass line and keyboard player to give me some jazzy EP chords (all using this chord progression and time signature and Tempo map) .. if you choose the exact same styles I did using that 'same band', I doubt you'd end up with something like this - http://masteringmatters.com/stuff/Count_Me_Out.mp3The only tracks not generated were the horns and the lead guitar.. the rest were the 'same musicians you have'. Even the funky rhythm guitar you hardly notice until the fade at the end was generated. If you use the program in its simplest form (simply enter chords/style and generate) then you probably won't get as much variety, but the software does allow for some pretty amazing stuff if you push the possibilities a little. I don't care that "your musicians are my musicians"; have you ever read the credits on commercial recordings? This is quite a common occurrence. They're called Studio Musicians. There are a lot of styles/realtracks actually done by these same studio musicians who have played on a ton of recordings for various artists." I concede my position after considering your argument. It makes sense. And I don't feel bad, on the contrary I feel exhilarated. I feel I can do away with any guilt I have previously harbored. Thanks, Buddy
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... But doesn't it feel a bit strange that the tracks you and I purchased are the same? Your musicians are also my musicians? Everyone here on BIAB has the same band members? Can we truly be unique in the development of our songs?. Just thinking. Not at all. The Wrecking Crew in Los Angeles and the original A Team in Nashville are just two examples of session musician teams that have played on thousands of classic recordings and untold thousands of records that were not successful. When you listen to the Beach Boys, Merle Haggard, Ray Charles, Paul Revere and the Raiders, the Mamas and Papas, a Henry Mancini movie score or the theme song of a sixties television show your hearing music performed by the same pool of musicians. Session musicians adapt their playing to match the demands of the session. We can mix and match 3100+ hours of RealTrack music. By the time we both select our RealTracks and edit to taste my music can be very different from yours. Yes, there can be a sameness to it but it doesn't have to be. The way a song is arranged, edited and mixed has as much to do with the final result as what is recorded.
Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1111) RB (5) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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