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#643912 - 02/25/21 11:53 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Unhappy With BIAB 2021
Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 3083
JohnJohnJohn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 3083
BIAB 2020 was relatively stable but I continue to have lots of problems with BIAB 2021!

- Some saved songs no longer sound right.

- Mixer problems where changing a style does not completely change the tracks in the mixer. I have had to click the generate button 5 or 6 times in order to get the tracks to actually regenerate properly with a new style.

- Bar Settings problems where songs that worked just fine before with a style change at a certain bar now do not work.

- Changing a track and using its DI option then incorrectly sets that track to DI for any subsequent style changes to DI.

- BIAB sometimes "forgets" my audio driver if I switch away to another program and then come back.

These are all NEW problems that I didn't have before "upgrading"! I have not even tried any of the new features because I can only assume they are marginal as well.

I had an older computer (approximately 3 years old) that was slowing down a bit so I blamed the problems on it during December. Then I went ahead and loaded BIAB 2021 on a brand new fast PC and...same problems!

I have reported these problems in the private testing forum and have no idea whether they are even being addressed. I am beyond frustrated with this product. Honestly, if it were not for the RealTracks I would have dumped it off my computer long ago.

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#643921 - 02/25/21 01:11 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Unhappy With BIAB 2021 [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Registered: 10/19/20
Posts: 69
Chantelle - PG Music Offline
PG Music Staff

Registered: 10/19/20
Posts: 69
Hi JohnJohnJohn, as our developers work on bug fixes we periodically post build updates to our website here: https://www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm

Please download and install the latest update for the 2021 and see if your issues are fixed. At the moment the latest build is the 822.

If you come across any other issues, you can email us at support@pgmusic.com
_________________________
Best,
Chantelle

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#643928 - 02/25/21 02:05 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Unhappy With BIAB 2021 [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 7655
Loc: Wauconda, Il.
MusicStudent Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 7655
Loc: Wauconda, Il.
JJJ
Chantelle must have missed the fact that you have over 3000 posts. Of course said with a big grin
_________________________
Dan,
BIAB2021, Dell XPS 8920 Intel Core I7-7700 @ 3.60GHz 16GB RAM
"...My goal is not to create backing tracks for my music, but rather to get more of me in my music."

SoundCloud


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#644079 - 02/26/21 12:44 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Unhappy With BIAB 2021 [Re: MusicStudent]
Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 3083
JohnJohnJohn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 3083
Originally Posted By: MusicStudent
JJJ
Chantelle must have missed the fact that you have over 3000 posts. Of course said with a big grin

You, my friend, are a troublemaker! I notice Chantelle has 6 posts so maybe this is a new PG person. Hey, at least someone from there responded to my complaint!

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#644080 - 02/26/21 12:47 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Unhappy With BIAB 2021 [Re: Chantelle - PG Music]
Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 3083
JohnJohnJohn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 3083
Originally Posted By: Chantelle - PG Music
Hi JohnJohnJohn, as our developers work on bug fixes we periodically post build updates to our website here: https://www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm

Please download and install the latest update for the 2021 and see if your issues are fixed. At the moment the latest build is the 822.

If you come across any other issues, you can email us at support@pgmusic.com

Thanks but I am quite aware of the constant stream of bug fix updates. They just never seem to fix all the things they broke in the latest release and it is way out beyond frustrating. Restoring what we had before should be the very highest priority.

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#644169 - 02/27/21 06:47 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Unhappy With BIAB 2021 [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 613
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Dave Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 613
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
I think that's called Quality Assurance.

You should never break something that is already working. Any new functionality shouldn't negatively affect the existing code. New code should work.

The beta testers, I am sure, do a good job. I don't know if they are directed to test certain functions only, or if they have leeway to look for broken code. Do they ever test for problems that existed in the previous release?

PGM doesn't seem to have an effective process for delivering a clean product, which is why we have so many fixes in each build. You have to accept with a product like BIAB/RealBand there will be some untested combinations of features. Much of that must be due to the legacy code. If it wasn't developed or previously modified in a controlled way, new changes will eventually clash with old code.

PGM's approach seems to be discount the new release (e.g. 2021) cost and let the users sort out the bugs. If you don't like this, you can always buy the BIAB at full cost in June when most of the bugs will have been fixed.

The other thing is that most of the errors seem to be related, not surprisingly, to the new code, or to the non-traditional BIAB functionality as a backing track generator. The basic program seems to be fine since it really hasn't changed since day 1.

I still think that PGM should be more forthcoming with their release approach. We should expect a working, essentially bug free product with each release. Today, we often have to do our own regression testing to ensure that product still works for us.
_________________________
BIAB for Windows Version 2019 (643)
Windows 10 (1909)

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#644202 - 02/27/21 10:53 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Unhappy With BIAB 2021 [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Registered: 01/06/07
Posts: 13
Angelo Cappello Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/06/07
Posts: 13
BIAB is such a good software that it deserves to be completely rewritten every 3-5 years.
These are the main reasons:
https://medium.com/@nirespire/why-i-think-software-should-be-rewritten-every-three-years-7fcc29210ca5
Best Regards
Angelo

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#644315 - 02/28/21 02:15 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Unhappy With BIAB 2021 [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Registered: 09/21/01
Posts: 1269
Loc: UK
Bob Calver Offline
Expert

Registered: 09/21/01
Posts: 1269
Loc: UK
For what its worth, and I've said this before, the more you try to add 'new and requested' features to BIAB, the more complicated it gets. hence the fact that this version with changes to the mixer and utility tracks for example seems to have caused so many problems and issues.

it's not a DAW. and when i made that point previously, it was pointed out that other 'auto accompaniment' packages had features BIAB didn't. GIMP doesn't match photoshop exactly yet its still a perfectly usable program for photo editing - just different.

tweaking BIAB to add DAW-like features or facilities people like on other programs seems almost to ignore BIAB strengths and why it's good at what it does. It doesn't need to 'improve'. so i agree that fixing long term bugs and issues like the limit on time signatures would be more welcomed by the community.

after all, i haven't seen anything 'new' in 2021 BIAB that we can't do in RB or a fully fledged DAW. and of course you can use the BIAB plugin - the best 'new' feature of recent years - in a DAW.

regardless of wishlists, the strength of BIAB is RealTracks. That alone sets BIAB apart so chasing DAW features and other programs isn't necessary.

i upgraded to 2021 and most of the issues have passed me by because i rough out a song in BIAB then do the heavy lifting in RB.

would other forumites agree that fixing the time signatures issue, breaking the 265 bar barrier, fixing the bug that means RealTracks don't always respond to bar based key changes (Andrew agreed that needed fixing) and other long term issues would be preferable?

BIAB is a great program. so maybe now's the time to stop adding bells and whistles and consolidate the program working on its strengths?

BIAB is essential to my music making. i'm grateful to PG Music for the creative possibilities it gives me. i don't mean this as a rant - its a celebration of what BIAB does without needing extra 'features'.


Edited by Bob Calver (02/28/21 02:16 AM)

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#644327 - 02/28/21 03:30 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Unhappy With BIAB 2021 [Re: Bob Calver]
Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 12828
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
VideoTrack Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 12828
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Quote:
...
would other forumites agree that fixing the time signatures issue, breaking the 265 bar barrier, fixing the bug that means RealTracks don't always respond to bar based key changes (Andrew agreed that needed fixing) and other long term issues would be preferable?


Everything that was mentioned is definitely worthy of consideration. Fixing known, existing issues, and satisfying multiple requests for better functionality (255 bar limit, etc) is far preferable than adding 50 new features each release. However, not everyone has this focus.

I would rather see 50 bug fixes than 50 new features, any day. YMMV.

_________________________
BIAB & RB2021(Audiophile), SonarPlatinum, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M StudioMonitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones

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#644344 - 02/28/21 06:09 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Unhappy With BIAB 2021 [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 5885
Loc: Pawling New York
Rob Helms Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 5885
Loc: Pawling New York
Bob 2 post up is right on, he gets it. I am so tired of the endless arguments over making BiaB something it is not. That goes for the plugin as well.

This basically called regression bugs. Where a new feature of option causes an old problem to resurface. This is the very reason that myself and a few others resisted some of the new ideas floated around. Not because we want to halt or block forward development, but rather to allow the program to breath and catch up. Every year folks ask for more changes. That might be easy in a program that does just a few things but BiaB is deep and rich with decades of features and layered capabilities.

I know I will draw criticism for saying this, I know this cause every time I have in the past I have had to put up with scathing remarks, and name calling. but I really don’t care! Why you say because I am right. In the past folks have criticized PGM for living in the past, maybe they are partially right. But just maybe with a deeply developed program that has been upgraded for more than 3 decades at this point adding a bunch of new features has become very complicated and difficult. So if you want to flame me for speaking out go right ahead, it will fall on deaf ears. Not because I’m some “old guard” but because I right. Allow PGM to fix the issues, and bear in mind it may take time. Don’t totally blame them as remember it was the users who to some degree demanded some of these features that cause regression. To PGM, guys you do an great job each year, but really take a look and see that it may be time to focus on stabilizing and make the annual new stuff RT and content.

How about 45 bugs smashed and 5 new features and 202 new RTs, 50 new RDs and some cool new MSTs etc. just sayin’

As they say round these parts “capese!”



Edited by Rob Helms (02/28/21 06:14 AM)
_________________________
Lenovo Win 10 8 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2021, Realband, Studio one 4.6 Pro, Logic Pro X, Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus Faderport 8, Komplete 49 key controller.

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#644345 - 02/28/21 06:10 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Unhappy With BIAB 2021 [Re: VideoTrack]
Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 15360
Loc: Hamlin NY
MarioD Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 15360
Loc: Hamlin NY
Originally Posted By: VideoTrack
Quote:
...
would other forumites agree that fixing the time signatures issue, breaking the 265 bar barrier, fixing the bug that means RealTracks don't always respond to bar based key changes (Andrew agreed that needed fixing) and other long term issues would be preferable?


Everything that was mentioned is definitely worthy of consideration. Fixing known, existing issues, and satisfying multiple requests for better functionality (255 bar limit, etc) is far preferable than adding 50 new features each release. However, not everyone has this focus.

I would rather see 50 bug fixes than 50 new features, any day. YMMV.



A SUPER BIG +1
_________________________
Welcome to old age. No one tells you that Rigor Mortis starts while you are still alive!

64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB and RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software and some hardware.

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#644354 - 02/28/21 07:17 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Unhappy With BIAB 2021 [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 21794
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 21794
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
This is not a new idea. I remember at least twenty years ago (maybe even in the prior forum) suggesting it would be good to take one year to fix major limitations rather than add new features. Core functionality, I called it.

255 measures. Odd time signatures including cut time. Enharmonic notes such as F flat. Maj7(#11), in jazz fake books but requiring Maj9(#11) in BIAB. NA for chords. Eight per bar. Split out all the chord types now called a 2 chord. Anything that didn’t work, especially if it were advertised or implied. Core functionality.

This year, as an example of what might have caused more difficulty this year than in the past, PG Music gave us Utility Tracks and enhanced the mixer. Yay. But, immediately there were calls for feature enhancements. I’m sure I gave some a +1. I shouldn’t have. I got excited and greedy. I think we should have let the developers work at the pace they had planned.
_________________________
BIAB 2021 Win Audiophile & 2020 Mac UltraPak. Software: Studio One 5 Pro, Adobe Audition CC, Notion 6; Win 10 64 Pro. Hardware: custom i7 16 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam sub & monitors

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#644371 - 02/28/21 08:45 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Unhappy With BIAB 2021 [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 293
Loc: Jersey Channel Islands
Brian Cadoret Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 293
Loc: Jersey Channel Islands

On average when I read the posts on this forum there are probably not more than twenty users who chip in with ideas and workarounds.
Although PGMusic has a cracking good piece of software, namely BIAB, their main focus is to sell the latest version to the thousands of new customers out there, and users who are happy just to "carry on", that's what businesses do they need to make a profit, so selling BIAB with hundreds of new features and bells and whistles attracts new users.
There are many bugs in the software that just keep getting pushed under the rug year after year and many "wishlist" ideas that will never see the light of day.
So with the twenty or so genuine users against the thousands of potential new customers bringing in cash I won't be holding my breath for the next release!
_________________________
Brian Cadoret
BIAB 2020 Pro UltraPAK. Samplitude Pro X4 Suite.
Focusrite 2i2 Scarlett
i3 Laptop Windows 7 8GB Ram

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#644373 - 02/28/21 09:09 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Unhappy With BIAB 2021 [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Registered: 05/20/01
Posts: 2120
Lloyd S Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/20/01
Posts: 2120
I agree with Matt's thinking on calls for future enhancements.
I am now limiting my entries to the Wishlist Forum to things (no matter how trivial) that need fixing.

LLOYD S

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#644375 - 02/28/21 09:24 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Unhappy With BIAB 2021 [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 21794
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 21794
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Brian, I think it's far more than twenty, especially if you go back 25 years.

I thought twenty years ago that adding new features while leaving shortcomings would cause the product to collapse at some point. Obviously I was quite wrong.
_________________________
BIAB 2021 Win Audiophile & 2020 Mac UltraPak. Software: Studio One 5 Pro, Adobe Audition CC, Notion 6; Win 10 64 Pro. Hardware: custom i7 16 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam sub & monitors

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#644376 - 02/28/21 09:30 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Unhappy With BIAB 2021 [Re: Brian Cadoret]
Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 15360
Loc: Hamlin NY
MarioD Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 15360
Loc: Hamlin NY
Originally Posted By: Brian Cadoret

On average when I read the posts on this forum there are probably not more than twenty users who chip in with ideas and workarounds.
Although PGMusic has a cracking good piece of software, namely BIAB, their main focus is to sell the latest version to the thousands of new customers out there, and users who are happy just to "carry on", that's what businesses do they need to make a profit, so selling BIAB with hundreds of new features and bells and whistles attracts new users.
There are many bugs in the software that just keep getting pushed under the rug year after year and many "wishlist" ideas that will never see the light of day.
So with the twenty or so genuine users against the thousands of potential new customers bringing in cash I won't be holding my breath for the next release!


You might be correct but I wonder how many potential users were put off with the first VSTi version? I know for a fact that some people are really put off by the GUI and the menu system. Many are put off by the fact that a 6/8 time signature transformed in a 4/4 time signature when transferred to their DAW. Some are put off by the fact that the last two upgrades had a ton of bugs.

Those of us who have used BiaB for years work around these handicaps but new potential customers can be put off by them. Especially in the MIDI world where there is a lot of competition out there, some much better then BiaB. If you use RTs then BiaB/RB are your only choices, for now.

I know that RTs are the cash cow for PGM but I firmly believe correcting the above statements would greatly improve their cash flow. YMMV
_________________________
Welcome to old age. No one tells you that Rigor Mortis starts while you are still alive!

64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB and RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software and some hardware.

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#644455 - 02/28/21 02:39 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Unhappy With BIAB 2021 [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Registered: 09/21/01
Posts: 1269
Loc: UK
Bob Calver Offline
Expert

Registered: 09/21/01
Posts: 1269
Loc: UK
as i've said before you don't need new features when you can say 'thousands of hours of top musicians playing live what you want in any key and any chord progression'

RealTracks are the wonderful thing about BIAB that will attract new users.

much better than 'now with utility tracks'.

we were all new users once and we bought BIAB for what it could do - not for 'new features' over last year's program which we didn't know anything about.

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#644463 - 02/28/21 03:35 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Unhappy With BIAB 2021 [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 21794
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 21794
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
No it’s not a bug.

EDIT: it looks like the post I replied to was deleted
.

The check in the program does not include beta versions, and PG Music considers the most recent release a beta. If you check on the website, you will see Build 822.


Edited by Matt Finley (02/28/21 03:39 PM)
_________________________
BIAB 2021 Win Audiophile & 2020 Mac UltraPak. Software: Studio One 5 Pro, Adobe Audition CC, Notion 6; Win 10 64 Pro. Hardware: custom i7 16 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam sub & monitors

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#644470 - 02/28/21 04:16 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Unhappy With BIAB 2021 [Re: Dave]
Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 3083
JohnJohnJohn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 3083
Originally Posted By: Dave
The beta testers, I am sure, do a good job.

There is no beta test here, at least not for recent releases. A few days to a week is not even remotely enough time to properly test a piece of software as complex as this. I def do not blame the beta testers.

Quote:
PGM's approach seems to be discount the new release (e.g. 2021) cost and let the users sort out the bugs.

Yup. And it works for us experienced users as Mario said we know how to work around stuff. I gotta believe new customers suffer with this a lot more.

Quote:
We should expect a working, essentially bug free product with each release. Today, we often have to do our own regression testing to ensure that product still works for us.

Agreed. There are bugs that come up that should have been caught and fixed before it was even released to the "beta test" stage.

Each year I give serious consideration to simply skipping the upgrade, freezing my installation of BIAB and foregoing the cool new RealTracks! That is becoming more and more attractive as a future option. At least that way I won't degrade my BIAB experience from December until June of the following year.

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#644478 - 02/28/21 05:43 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Unhappy With BIAB 2021 [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Registered: 08/19/08
Posts: 16
limestone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/19/08
Posts: 16
IMHO, getting eighth-note chords and/or quarter-note and eighth-note triplets in a bar would be INCREDIBLE. And yes, I know about the workarounds and the work Mr. Norton has done. And, all the little bells and whistles added over the years. This has been discussed ad nauseum. I've owned a studio since 1989, and biab is the best single tool I've ever purchased to produce the foundation of a song properly. But, has focus been lost on strengthening BASIC necessities and fundamentals of music? Asking for a friend...

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