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#646639 - 03/14/21 07:49 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] TO PETER GANNON.
Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 427
justanoldmuso Offline
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Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 427
TO PETER GANNON.
i'm a long time pg user. donkeys years in fact. started early on powertraks. then biab and rb.
as such i have a wish for the wishlist forums.
AS FOLLOWS. which would probably lower some users frustration levels.
ie. when a user posts a wish , i feel a pg rep should respond in a timely fashion as to the the possibility of the wish being implemented, and by when. so no users time is wasted.
eg low priority, medium priority or high priority.

we used to do this in industry with our user bases.
thus it allows the user to plan appropriately.

in my own case i would like you to tell me as the head of the company what likelihood my wishes will ever be implemented. see my WISHES in the biab and rb wishlists forums.
particularly my wishes re my needs re the chorus concept redo, which i feel is long overdue.
i simply cant fathom how, music class educators useing biab as a teaching tool explain to their students that in biab chorus has a different connotation from the norm taught in music classes worldwide.
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=626291#Post626291
as well will i ever see pipelines brilliant tabbed chord view be implemented ?
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=626758#Post626758
will it be 2022 ? 23 ? NEVER ??

HERES PIPELINES BRILLIANT GRAPHIC OF NEW TABBED CHORD VIEW !
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=15655&filename=BB-Tabbed-Chord-Sheet-Sections.gif
which would help greatly in arrangeing songs.
also music for picture people might find it usefull.
i have been very VERY patient over the years, but there is no point in posting ones wishes if they never are going to be implemented. i feel i'm wasting my effort.
thus i would like to know where my wishes stand.
so i can plan appropriately , as i have some creative projects coming up, that could use the features ive requested, and make my life a lot easier.

i also dont want to hear back "we review all submissions".
i want either never or a possible date in the future i can look forward to.
so i can plan my music projects.
possibly (as ive done a little coding myself in the past)
the structure/architecture of biab will never EVER accommodate my wishes. ie too much recoding/root rchitectural changes. perfectly understandeable.
in this case just tell me never. nada, buddy your outta luck etc.
regards.
oldmuso.



Edited by justanoldmuso (03/14/21 08:12 AM)
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#646645 - 03/14/21 08:41 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: TO PETER GANNON. [Re: justanoldmuso]
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 7662
Loc: Wauconda, Il.
MusicStudent Offline
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Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 7662
Loc: Wauconda, Il.
I frequent many Music Application websites and forums. Many have "wishlist\feature requests features" section. Many do not. However, what you are requesting here sounds like above and beyound...

Quote:
a pg rep should respond in a timely fashion as to the the possibility of the wish being implemented, and by when.

i would like you to tell me as the head of the company what likelihood my wishes will ever be implemented.


I am the first to admit that the WishList here in the forum is a black hole where good ideas go to die. But I would not expect the items you have suggested above. So I agree a better system is needed but regarding these suggestions, -1.

But I do applaud the effort. grin
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#646648 - 03/14/21 08:59 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: TO PETER GANNON. [Re: justanoldmuso]
Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 15362
Loc: Hamlin NY
MarioD Offline
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I respect your ideas and while worthwhile IMHO I can foresee a few problems with them.

1- If a lot of "no we can't do that" responses come from PGM then some may not wish for something as they feel PGM will just say no anyway.

2-In the company I worked for I wrote a lot of macros in Lotus 123 and Excel for other areas. An idea would come in and I would say "yes that should be easy to do' to find out it was a large PITA to integrate said idea. Meanwhile the customer is on my butt daily waiting for the program change.

3-It could lead to vaporware. PGM promises to implement the idea only to never have it implemented.

Having said all of that I do wish that PGM would implement some of Pipeline's ideas. Or better yet implement mine and do a complete rewrite. Note that I'm not holding my breath for either one.
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#646910 - 03/15/21 01:50 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: TO PETER GANNON. [Re: MarioD]
Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 684
Loc: Waterloo Ontario Canada
Tony Wright Offline
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I think it is unrealistic to expect a company executive to respond to every suggestion made by any any user. This would be a no-win situation for BIAB and Peter Gannon once it gets personal. PG Music is not some kind of democratic organization.

My advice to Peter Gannon is something quite different.....

Please stop listening to and trying to satisfy so many pet ideas about how to improve your great product. Just because one or two people give a single idea the +1 doesn't mean it's good for BIAB or it is wanted by the majority of users. Every time you respond to these "improvements" BIAB gets more complicated and you run the risk of problems when the software is updated. Just look what is happening with 2021.

Tony

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#646943 - 03/15/21 03:54 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: TO PETER GANNON. [Re: Tony Wright]
Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 15362
Loc: Hamlin NY
MarioD Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tony Wright
I think it is unrealistic to expect a company executive to respond to every suggestion made by any any user. This would be a no-win situation for BIAB and Peter Gannon once it gets personal. PG Music is not some kind of democratic organization.


I agree with you.

Originally Posted By: Tony Wright

My advice to Peter Gannon is something quite different.....

Please stop listening to and trying to satisfy so many pet ideas about how to improve your great product. Just because one or two people give a single idea the +1 doesn't mean it's good for BIAB or it is wanted by the majority of users. Every time you respond to these "improvements" BIAB gets more complicated and you run the risk of problems when the software is updated. Just look what is happening with 2021.

Tony


I respectfully disagree. I think it is great that a company listens to its users and tries to implement user's suggestions.

I believe the problem lies in the fact that the beta testers do not have enough time to thoroughly test the program. If they are given more time I believe fewer bugs would get through.
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#647091 - 03/16/21 03:22 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: TO PETER GANNON. [Re: justanoldmuso]
Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14556
PeterGannon Offline
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Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14556
There is an existing song form feature in BiaB. It’s under the edit menu, form, song form, That isn’t a tabbed chord sheet. But you define sections as A,B,C... etc, and can then just type AABACBAA and the song gets rearranged like that. And change it to ABACCBA. You get to see the whole composition on screen at once, unlike the tabbed chord sheet that only shows part of the song,

Here’s a video about the song form maker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxD4tquRQOM
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#647140 - 03/17/21 02:54 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: TO PETER GANNON. [Re: PeterGannon]
Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 427
justanoldmuso Offline
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Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 427
Peter.
thanks for getting back to me.
Kudos. much appreciated.
the beauty of the tab dialogue i suggest is not to see "the big song picture" , but that each tab correlates to its marker in daw multitrak software.
so the user knows where he/she always is in biab.
for example in biab a tab that says "lead breaK " Or
"violin solo" or "Key change" will correlate with a similar marker in the users daw software. easy peasy.

also the user can flip around easily in a song between song sections.
working in little "song chunks". rather like an arranger might work with a pen and sheet music staffs in the old days.
an arranger doesnt necessarily work from begin to coda of a song , But moving around within parts of the song.
i'm sure "bach" didnt work linearly , and ones ideas often dont come linearly , but as in "wow i just thought of a neat idea for the third bridge".
thus one goes to that "tab" for third bridge.
OR maybe one thinks "oooh how bout a new third bridge" ,
so one sets up a tab titled third bridge and enters the third bridge chords.

The problem with Song Form (which ive tried many times btw and got frustrated ) is there is no text against the various section letters (A, F, N whatever), where one can write in text to correlate with ones daw multitrack markers .(eg verse 3 or bridge 2 or chorus 4 whatever). of course one likes to play each section too.
i find i often "psychologically" get "lost" in the song form , particularly on a long complex song, as in "now where am i " and what is that F letter again ? is that the third break ?
thus i have to resort to pen and paper keeping note of what each section correlates to.

the other "problem" is biab chord sheet is "an up down affair". ive often wondered if instead it (chord view) should be organised like daw software. but with subtle differences.
1. bars/chords in a horizontal time line across the top.
2. instruments down the left hand side.
and then you might ask but there will be a big space . au contraire.
there will be cels where users can right click on and enter parameters "like F5" whether an instrument should play at the spot, or a regen , etc etc. whatever the user wants at that point in the song for that instrument. once again markers would correlate to the daw multitrack software.

Peter i'm not trying to be a "smart A".
why not take a user poll ? asking do you want a tabbed dialogue option (with pipelines nice graphic) or not ?
do you want chord view as a linear option ?
(with graphic example) or not ?
if i lose the poll, c'est la vie.

Peter, if you peruse the user forums over the years you will see new users often bemused that biab doesnt think as in intros/verses/bridges/breaks/choruses/outtro sections. how biab thinks of "chorus" is often confuseing for new users.
now i just ignore it , and use the layers text to keep little notes of where i am in a song.
recently in a very complex song how i kept organised was
i saved a biab file for intro, each verse or break or chorus or the outtro.
i ended up with 10 biab files saved. labelled "verse x" or "bridge y" or whatever, and ended up sorting all the exported audio in my daw software lining all up useing markers that correlated with the biab file names.

i would argue the tabbed idea will be a familiar way of doing things.
cos each tab will denote whatever the user wants it to be ie intro or verse or break or bridge or whatever the user desires. and correlate with the users daw software markers.
another example (and i'm no expert in this ) might be music for picture.
a tab could be for example scene 12 "guitar lead"
or scene 56 "lonely ukelele". whatever. all user defined.
i see tabs as a very usefull feature.

best to you.
i like tabby cats old muso.
ps i got up really really early in the morning to type this. so i'm groggy , please excuse any typos. lol.



Edited by justanoldmuso (03/17/21 03:39 AM)
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#647141 - 03/17/21 03:18 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: TO PETER GANNON. [Re: justanoldmuso]
Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 12846
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
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Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 12846
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Hi justanoldmuso

I'm not sure that I want to mention this, and I do want to be both discrete and polite. But in written form, the use of all capital letters in a statement is ACTUALLY RECOGNIZED AS 'SHOUTING'.

I'm sure you don't intend this, and kindly bring this to your attention. No harm intended. The subject "TO PETER GANNON." is no doubt to get Peter's attention, but in fact your were actually yelling at him (unintentionally). Please don't take offense to this response. Phrases made with all capitals letters are considered 'shouting'. It's an etiquette thing only, hope you can understand. Just have a look at the other posts here, and how they are all delivered (capitalization-wise).
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#647149 - 03/17/21 04:17 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: TO PETER GANNON. [Re: justanoldmuso]
Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14556
PeterGannon Offline
PG Music Staff

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14556
Sections of songs repeat, but that doesn’t mean the chords (and other elements) are exactly the same in each one. Most pop songs I hear have slight variations in chords in otherwise similar verses. I don’t see any recognition of that on the “tabbed view”.

And it’s not just chords, everything can vary (at least slightly) from verse to verse, like the melody, lyrics, instrumentation etc.
The best solution to that is a linear representation (one chorus) where you can customize any part because it gets its own bar number, Then you get a singer to record audio over the whole song, and that spans several of the sections, and it’s a mess as you now have a linear recording and a section based “tabbed view”.

My first sequencer in the 1980s was Texture, a pattern based sequencer that divided everything into parts. It worked to make songs that had exactly repeating sections, but I couldn’t use that concept on most songs I wanted, since they varied slightly and they weren’t just repeating loops.
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#647151 - 03/17/21 04:44 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: TO PETER GANNON. [Re: justanoldmuso]
Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14556
PeterGannon Offline
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Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14556
> The problem with Song Form (which ive tried many times btw and got frustrated ) is there is no text against the various section letters (A, F, N whatever)

Oh, if that’s “the” problem with the song form, we can add name fields for each section, and they’d show up on the main chord sheet. (Of course now the song form maker shows you the chords of each section, and you need to recognize what the section is by letter name, and looking at those chords, without a name)
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#647161 - 03/17/21 06:17 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: TO PETER GANNON. [Re: PeterGannon]
Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 427
justanoldmuso Offline
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Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 427
Peter.
firstly thanks for listening to me. much respect.
let me address each one of your points.
1. song form "the " problem.
yes ! it would be very helpfull to have a text field against each capital letter (A, C, whatever section)
where i could enter words like "verse 3" or "break 2" or "solo 4" or whatever.
and then see this in the new generated song form. this would help me line up with my daw markers.
2. tabbed chord view.
lets look at several cases.
a. case where a instrumental break repeated repeated 3 times . in this case right clik over tab, and each tab has "properties" just like individual bars and chords and songs have properties.
but in this case user would enter into tab properties >repeat = 3.
b. case where same instrumental break in a song repeated 3 times, but third time there is a chord change in third repeat bar 6 from Am to C. in this case clik on the tab "instrumental break" properties and repeat = 2.
then user sets up a third tab named instr break (change) , copies chords from first tab. makes chord change at bar 6 from Am to C. voila.

regarding the tabs idea/concept , please feel free to throw any critique at me where the tab concept might
break down, and i'll be glad to address it and provide a solution.
let me also please make a further point about a possible advantage of the tabbed concept.
please imagine a user with 2 monitors. on one is biab tabbed chord view. on second monitor is the users daw multitrak software with markers corresponding to the tabs in biab.
now how bout this ! user drags a tab from biab over to daw marker, et voila!biab intelligently drops its traks to the marker in the users daw only for that song section tab. traks magically appear. sorta like currently.
the key aspect is to match biab markers and daw markers.

let me also add that tabs wouldnt be fixed. they could be dragged around at the top of pipelines graphic if the user wishes to re arrange the song. they can be moved, copied, renamed. whatever.
thus catering to any rearrangement of a users song. also each individual tab section can be played obviously on its own.
3. Unfolding.
the problem with unfolding , is, when i'm away from my big studio tv monitor, in a room on holiday and i get an idea. so i'm useing a small laptop screen. my vision also is not the best. i'm vision impaired.
thus things get very cramped on the screen, and the chord lettering can get rather small on a complex long song. with tabs i could make the lettering big more easily.

regards.
groggy wakeing up with my cup of tea oldmuso.lol.


Edited by justanoldmuso (03/17/21 06:20 AM)
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#647174 - 03/17/21 07:21 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: TO PETER GANNON. [Re: justanoldmuso]
Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14556
PeterGannon Offline
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Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14556
>3. Unfolding.
the problem with unfolding , is, when i'm away from my big studio tv monitor, in a room on holiday and i get an idea. so i'm useing a small laptop screen. my vision also is not the best. i'm vision impaired.
thus things get very cramped on the screen, and the chord lettering can get rather small on a complex long song. with tabs i could make the lettering big more easily.


There are chordsheet zoom buttons that control the number of rows, so you can have the chords as big as you like on a small laptop screen. Similar zoom buttons for notation and audio. Please try them and let me know if there is still something else you don’t like about a linear layout of a song (single chorus).

> b. case where same instrumental break in a song repeated 3 times, but third time there is a chord change in third repeat bar 6 from Am to C. in this case clik on the tab "instrumental break" properties and repeat = 2.
then user sets up a third tab named instr break (change) , copies chords from first tab. makes chord change at bar 6 from Am to C. voila.

That doesn’t strike me as easier than a linear layout, where you just type a different chord wherever you want it. And how about audio and notation, are we to have “properties” for each of those, where every repeat has different audio and different notation?

IMO, a single linear layout is the best way to go. Just set # of choruses to one and you’re all set.
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#647181 - 03/17/21 07:49 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: TO PETER GANNON. [Re: justanoldmuso]
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 21811
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Offline
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I admit I did not read all of this thread carefully, but if I recall correctly, what some users would like is for the Song Form to have word labels like Verse 1, Chorus 2, Channel, Drum Break, etc. instead of, as you say, knowing that A means this, B means that etc.

If you can add Name Fields for each section, I think it would be terrific and popular for you to do so.


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#647184 - 03/17/21 07:56 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: TO PETER GANNON. [Re: justanoldmuso]
Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14556
PeterGannon Offline
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Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14556
> If you can add Name Fields for each section, I think it would be terrific and popular for you to do so.

Matt,
Thanks. I agree.
Peter
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#647198 - 03/17/21 09:04 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: TO PETER GANNON. [Re: PeterGannon]
Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 427
justanoldmuso Offline
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Peter.
i just set up my laptop as i would use it in a hotel room on holiday.
ie no big monitor. maybe its my vision impairement but i see no zoom buttons in chord view. even with big monitor. same.
i do have the zooms in other views. not chord view.

re "properties"/tabs. no i wouldnt expect that on everything.

the problem i find with "one unfolded chorus" is use of the right hand vertical scroll bar all the time to move around on a long song.
up and down continuously. on a small screen stuff disappears.
maybe my problem is i'm used to , in a daw, a horizontal linear fashion. so i guess i would like tabbed chord view cos it would be linear horizontally like a daw. just the way my mind works.

regards.
oldmuso.
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#647201 - 03/17/21 09:21 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: TO PETER GANNON. [Re: justanoldmuso]
Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 6240
Loc: South Carolina
Charlie Fogle Offline
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The 'elephant' in the room is RealBand. It does every process mentioned in this thread. Begin your BIAB song project in RB to construct the song form and arrangement there. The user can complete the song and render it in RB or save the RB project as a BIAB native file, open that file in BIAB to quickly select, audition and render the completed and arranged tracks to export and complete in the users DAW of choice.

Here's the processes items I found in the previous remarks:

1. tabbed chord view. This is requested to so sections "correlates to its marker in daw multitrak software so the user knows where he/she always is in biab."
This is unnecessary in the RB because it is a DAW and that correlation exists in it as well as provides both the section view and the overall view.

2. the user can flip around easily in a song between song sections.
RB easily does this.

3. Section Text.
RB has this feature.

4. the other "problem" is biab chord sheet is "an up down affair". ive often wondered if instead it (chord view) should be organised like daw software.
RB has this DAW organized view in the Tracks View. RB also has multiple easily navigable views between Bars, Tracks, Chord Chart and Mixer.

5. biab doesnt think as in intros/verses/bridges/breaks/choruses/outtro sections.
RB thinks of song sections like every other DAW.

6. And it’s not just chords, everything can vary (at least slightly) from verse to verse, like the melody, lyrics, instrumentation etc. The best solution to that is a linear representation (one chorus) where you can customize any part because it gets its own bar number.
RB has both the linear representation and the BIAB format for Bar Numbers.

7. imagine a user with 2 monitors. on one is biab tabbed chord view. on second monitor is the users daw multitrak software with markers corresponding to the tabs in biab. now how bout this! user drags a tab from biab over to daw marker, et voila!biab intelligently drops its traks to the marker in the users daw only for that song section tab. traks magically appear. sorta like currently. the key aspect is to match biab markers and daw markers.
I don't have two monitors and I don't know if this is something possible. However, since RB has DAW Markers and sections can be selected, then such a transfer should work using RB sections. If the poster has two monitors, create a section in RB and test. This may already be possible.

8. let me also add that tabs wouldn't be fixed. they could be dragged around at the top of pipelines graphic if the user wishes to re arrange the song. they can be moved, copied, renamed. whatever. thus catering to any rearrangement of a users song. also each individual tab section can be played obviously on its own.
RB has this feature

9. Unfolding.
In RB, the tracks view is resizable and the Chord Chart is linear, one chorus and scrollable.

It's not my intent to endorse or disregard any of these processes. Some can be done in BIAB and some not but each can be done using RealBand. Starting a BIAB project in RB completely eliminates the need to create 10 or more individual BIAB projects and eliminates the need to generate and export multiple versions of instruments when RB can create and include every section's variation in a single track and single render.
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#647217 - 03/17/21 11:26 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: TO PETER GANNON. [Re: justanoldmuso]
Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 7215
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Jim Fogle Offline
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Charlie, Mac users do not have RealBand.

I believe Matt is talking about allowing users to relabel Bar Based Section Letters. Presently, they effectively replace bar numerals. If bar based section letters could be relabeled by users, how do you keep labels that are more than a single character from encroaching into the chords bar space?


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#647220 - 03/17/21 11:29 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: TO PETER GANNON. [Re: justanoldmuso]
Registered: 07/12/00
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Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Offline
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Jim, yes, I thought that's what Peter was suggesting, so I hope he can figure that out.
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#647254 - 03/17/21 02:02 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: TO PETER GANNON. [Re: Jim Fogle]
Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 6240
Loc: South Carolina
Charlie Fogle Offline
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<< Charlie, Mac users do not have RealBand. >>

Doesn't matter for three reasons.

1. I clearly stated I'm not opposed to justanoldmuso's suggestions. Just pointing out that RealBand will do all of the process issues he has with BIAB. The functionality is unrelated to whether Mac's do or not. I believe that justanoldmuso does have access to RB as he's posted in the RB forums on occasion. If he doesn't, and to all the others that don't have RealBand, read reason 3.

2. I replied to justanoldmuso's problems with BIAB and didn't address the specifics of what BIAB can and can't do presently. Justanoldmuso's suggestion for tabs addresses more issues and solutions than only Part Marker Text.

3. I realized that BIAB actually can think in terms of "intros/verses/bridges/breaks/choruses/outro sections" which is the substance of justanoldmuso's issue with BIAB. The only adjustment to justanoldmuso's current workflow he explains in this current thread is to do actions like construct each section, the intro, verse, bridge, pre-chorus, chorus, break and outro, separately and render WAV files from these sections in any order he wishes in BIAB rather than a DAW.

These sections will render as a complete track and not as audio clips from each section that require comping in a DAW like he currently does.

Since my post, I've determined BIAB has a feature/Tool PG Music markets for other actions, that also offers the 'hidden' feature to accomplish the tasks this thread has detailed. RealBand or another DAW is not necessary to create, segregate, re-arrange, name, copy & paste individual sections, and edit sections. Each section can be viewed independently and isolated from the other sections but BIAB will combine and render all of the sections from a single file rather than multiple ones.
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#647301 - 03/17/21 08:40 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: TO PETER GANNON. [Re: justanoldmuso]
Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14556
PeterGannon Offline
PG Music Staff

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 14556
>> maybe my problem is i'm used to , in a daw, a horizontal linear fashion. so i guess i would like tabbed chord view cos it would be linear horizontally like a daw. just the way my mind works.

You can already set the chord sheet to a linear view, showing as many bars as you'd see horizontally in a DAW. In addition, you can make the chords as big as you want. For example, here's 20 bars per screen(*) , shown horizontally. For comparison, the tabbed view you recommend has 4 bars per row.


* to do this, I right clicked - chose display options, and deselected "new line for each section" and then selected 20 bars per screen (I could have used the zoom buttons on the main chordsheet window instead of that)


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