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#670564 - 08/29/21 11:04 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Isolate what measures to re-generate [Re: Charlie Fogle]
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Pipeline Offline
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The Util tracks generate was a bit of an added after thought as the soloist dialog it users does not have direct input option and the Util tracks need to be saved to wav, so like the BBPlugin you are filling the drive with wav files.
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#670568 - 08/29/21 12:31 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Isolate what measures to re-generate [Re: Charlie Fogle]
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Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
You are absolutely correct. And, this is exactly how BIAB works today, Just select bars and click regenerate bars. Plain and simple and extremely useful.

The video you linked shows selecting generated audio file sections on a utility track and regenerating those.

The original request (and subsequent requests) was to select bars on standard RealTracks in the mixer and be able to regenerate just those bars. So, your claim that "this is exactly how BIAB works today" seems not to be quite correct.

Furthermore, when I tried to select bars of the utility track in the default chordsheet view it did NOT regenerate just the selected bars. It seems to require that I do my selecting in the Audio window.

So, IMHO this is a useful but more complex workaround with its own limitations as Pipeline pointed out.

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#670577 - 08/29/21 02:13 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Isolate what measures to re-generate [Re: RickeG]
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I think PG Music has the idea by now.

Since they have expressed the intent to make the Utility Tracks act like legacy tracks, this wish would seem to be rolled into that. Let's see what they come up with for BIAB 2022.
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#670585 - 08/29/21 04:01 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Isolate what measures to re-generate [Re: Matt Finley]
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Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
Let's see what they come up with for BIAB 2022.


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#670586 - 08/29/21 04:04 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Isolate what measures to re-generate [Re: RickeG]
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Charlie Fogle Online   content
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<< The video you linked shows selecting generated audio file sections on a utility track and regenerating those.>>
Yes it does. My answer said "this is exactly how BIAB works today, Just select bars and click regenerate bars." and that is absolutely correct. What's the necessity of doing it on a standard Legacy Track when the program has 16 Utility Tracks that do generate RealTracks?

<< The original request (and subsequent requests) was to select bars on standard RealTracks in the mixer and be able to regenerate just those bars. So, your claim that "this is exactly how BIAB works today" seems not to be quite correct. >>
In 2010 when that specific and all subsequent requests made before this year, Utility Tracks didn't exist.

The narrator tells in the video how BIAB can handle the situation if a user happens to generate a RealTrack on a Legacy Track and it needs to only be partially edited.

<< Furthermore, when I tried to select bars of the utility track in the default chordsheet view it did NOT regenerate just the selected bars. It seems to require that I do my selecting in the Audio window. >>

It's unfair to blame the program for operator error. The video demonstrated exactly how the process works.

<<So, IMHO this is a useful but more complex workaround with its own limitations as Pipeline pointed out. >>

Pipeline's stated that "the soloist dialog it uses does not have direct input option and the Util tracks need to be saved to wav, so like the BBPlugin you are filling the drive with wav files." It's true that Utility Tracks RealPicker dialog does not have the Bluesy, Simple, direct input and Held buttons but that does not create a limitation. RealTracks that have Direct Input and the other buttons can be edited with or without those feature buttons activated and will only render a single WAV file. One file should be an issue and it's necessary to the DAW. Editing tracks in BIAB using the Audio Channel and Utility Tracks reduces the number of files BIAB has to generate for export to a DAW. There's no need to export 5-6 tracks to comp in a DAW when it can be done with a single track in BIAB.
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#670598 - 08/29/21 05:39 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Isolate what measures to re-generate [Re: RickeG]
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In most DAWs the files play direct from the hard disk, even RealBand can play 48 tracks from hard disk.
Most use non destructive editing unlike BB RB that use destructive audio editing, this is something from the past when there was not enough pc power.
It was a hard job to get volume nodes in RealBand but they are in there now, this allows for non destructive gain editing, same can be added to Biab.
I can get a RealTrack and a RealDrum to generate and play instantly direct from disk in Reaper.
If Reaper can play many tracks direct from disk applying stretch and pitch change on the fly there is no reason in these modern times that Biab can't do that same.

When you copy a section of a RealTrack it will just be coping the data, no wav or RAM. You will be able to freeze all tracks and save without wav's and this will then open in the BBPlugin and be identical.
The generate speed should be faster as it's not writing to RAM first.
Users will be blown away with this speed in the BBPlugin, no generating to RAM then rendering to wav files, just instant play.
Work this out now and you won't need "BB and The Workarounds"

BUT, maybe if this is all too hard to modify Biab to do then it can be just done in the BBPlugin so you get instant gen/play and opening of frozen SGU in the BBPlugin then users that are not using the BBPlugin at the moment because of slow gen/play times will be more likely to use this in their DAW rather than "BB and The Workarounds" ??????
Would this be the case that users would more likely use the BBPlugin directly in their DAW if it had instant gen/play and open frozen SGUs as in the BBPlugin it's easier to get away from all the limitations of Biab like 255 bars, no real time signatures, no fractional/decimal tempo maps ???
Or would you rather Biab do it all ????


Flow chart:
Old Way Create file to RAM
New Way Play direct from hard drive





So on the bottom is the RT source file with all the chords that were played, Biab chooses the sections it wants to play from the source file and plays them back in linear order on it's timeline direct from hard drive.
FULL SCREEN

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#670609 - 08/29/21 07:09 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Isolate what measures to re-generate [Re: Pipeline]
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That's an interesting concept Pipeline and I can see its value when applied to the Plug-in and if you can generate RealTracks in Reaper but I'm not following how RealTracks generated in the Reaper DAW from RealTrack audio files has any relevance to the subject of this thread about regenerating a RealTrack in BIAB?

Not everybody that uses BIAB uses Reaper or in many cases I'm sure, use any DAW. That means that not every BIAB user uses the Plug-in either. I agree that if you edit the audio construction of a track to completion in BIAB that it must be saved as a WAV in DAW but that's editing that doesn't have to be done in the DAW, just mixed. That's no different than if a mix engineer/producer gets stems from recordings made in another studio.

When you generate a RealTrack in Reaper does it also generate the MIDI like BIAB does on its Legacy and Utility Tracks?

When you use Reaper to generate a RealTrack can you generate multiple sections of the highlighted region in a row of both audio and midi, audition and hear them instantly, select your favorite clip from the multiple generations like the narrator does at the 3:43 mark in the introduction video and have that same ability to undo and redo multiple times?

Having the midi generated with each edited regeneration is important to BIAB users that use the Notation, Piano Roll, Audio Editor, Lead Sheet, Fake Sheet, Guitar Window and the Big Piano. Using the Copy/Move command, a user can choose whether to include all midi, some midi or no midi along with the audio clip.

I'm also unclear to how you're defining non-destructive and destructive audio editing in BIAB. The BIAB Audio Editor has multiple Undo/redo capability and I've never encountered what I would define as a destructive edit. Cut, paste, gain change, fade in, fade out, normalize, delete, silence, insert silence, generate, regenerate, convert channels, harmonize, transpose, fix tuning and fix sour notes can all be applied to the audio and undone if desired.

I appreciate your input and agree that if implemented it would be a great benefit to many users and to the BIAB program but I don't see it making a difference or affecting the current generating, regeneration or audio editing in BIAB.









Edited by Charlie Fogle (08/29/21 07:10 PM)
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#670618 - 08/29/21 08:19 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Isolate what measures to re-generate [Re: Charlie Fogle]
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"any relevance to the subject" If I generate a RT or RD in Reaper it is instant and I can regenerate any section "Isolate what measures to re-generate".
Biab tracks are in RAM maybe that is why this has never been implemented ? maybe it's too hard to do ? I don't know, but I can do it easy in Reaper.

I said way back to re-write Biab 64bit more like a DAW so users can stay in Biab and got a lot of flack but this is the way it's going.
I'm not saying to use Reaper instead of Biab this is not a competition, but what Reaper can do there is no reason that Biab can't do the same.
It is not a problem to generate both audio and midi from source files in Reaper.

"When you use Reaper to generate a RealTrack.." yes you can do all that, but why not make Biab do what Reaper can do. Look at smooth seek in Reaper that would work great in Biab for smooth transitions from any section to another or for live chord input like an arranger keyboard.

" Cut, paste, gain change, fade in, fade out, normalize, delete, silence, insert silence, generate, regenerate, convert channels, harmonize, transpose, fix tuning and fix sour notes can all be applied to the audio and undone if desired. "
Reaper will do all that and leave the original file intact
D:\bb\RealTracks\Bass, Acoustic, Bossa Ev 110\bs1266.wav
you can't go go back to any undo you like in Biab, you can't come back the next day and undo, that is destructive the audio is destroyed.

All the ideas I push and research time I put in is to make Biab RB BBPlugin better, not to give up and just use Reaper smile
As I said look at the DAW VST ver 3.0 video demo it looks professional, not from PG, there was a hell of a lot of pushing, effort and fighting to get it there.
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#670625 - 08/29/21 10:15 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Isolate what measures to re-generate [Re: RickeG]
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Charlie Fogle Online   content
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<< "any relevance to the subject" If I generate a RT or RD in Reaper it is instant and I can regenerate any section "Isolate what measures to re-generate". >>

I'm satisfied with the generation time of a Utility Track in BIAB and I can regenerate any section "isolate what measures to regenerate".

<< Biab tracks are in RAM maybe that's why its never been implemented? maybe it's too hard to do? I don't know, but I can do it easy in Reaper. >>
It's easy to do in BIAB. A couple of clicks of the mouse.

<< I said way back to re-write Biab 64bit more like a DAW so users can stay in Biab and got a lot of flack but this is the way it's going. >>
Yes, I agree that BIAB is becoming more like a DAW.

<< I'm not saying to use Reaper instead of Biab this is not a competition, but what Reaper can do there is no reason that Biab can't do the same. >>
Regarding how BIAB code reads the source files, I think is more important to how BIAB interfaces with DAWs and the Plug-in and that's important to the future growth of the program so I support your efforts. What you're doing with RealTracks in Reaper has no effect on the Audio Editor tools in BIAB.

<< It is not a problem to generate both audio and midi from source files in Reaper. >>
That's good. It is important that BIAB can do both.

<< "When you use Reaper to generate a RealTrack.." yes you can do all that, but why not make Biab do what Reaper can do. Look at smooth seek in Reaper that would work great in Biab for smooth transitions from any section to another or for live chord input like an arranger keyboard. >>

BIAB does do all of those tasks too. It would be great if BIAB did it like Reaper for future development but as far as audio editing in BIAB, how the source material in the audio editor and Utility Tracks is accessed is irrelevant. It's audio on these tracks not RT data. BIAB doesn't see any difference editing a singer recorded live track from a generated RealTrack from midi converted to audio.

<< "Cut, paste, gain change, fade in, fade out, normalize, delete, silence, insert silence, generate, regenerate, convert channels, harmonize, transpose, fix tuning and fix sour notes can all be applied to the audio and undone if desired. Reaper will do all that and leave the original file intact." >>
I can easily do it in BIAB and leave the original file intact. This is applying simple, decades old multi track recording techniques.

<< D:\bb\RealTracks\Bass, Acoustic, Bossa Ev 110\bs1266.wav >>
I have no clue what this is about..
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#670626 - 08/29/21 10:30 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Isolate what measures to re-generate [Re: RickeG]
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Charlie Fogle Online   content
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I think I exceeded the post's length barrier. It cut off the last of my response....

<< you can't go go back to any undo you like in Biab, you can't come back the next day and undo, that is destructive the audio is destroyed.>>
Incorrect. Edits can be preserved if that's what the user wants to do. It's decades old multi track techniques.

<< All the ideas I push and research time I put in is to make Biab RB BBPlugin better, not to give up and just use Reaper
As I said look at the DAW VST ver 3.0 video demo it looks professional, not from PG, there was a hell of a lot of pushing, effort and fighting to get it there. >>

All the ideas I push and research time I put in is to make BIAB better. Keep on keeping on, it's worth your time and everyone benefits when something you've researched and spent time on is implemented into the program. For me, the Audio Editor is under-rated, under utilized and is on par with the Editors in hardware Digital Recorders like Tascam, Zoom and other brands. It's not perfect and could be improved but it's a very robust tool.
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#670631 - 08/29/21 11:38 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Isolate what measures to re-generate [Re: RickeG]
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Charlie,
simple truth. I believe anyone born after 1990 is not looking for a "decades old multi track recording techniques."
They will be more inclined to use "modern and automated techniques" The last time I used a hardware multitrack was about 20 years ago. (and that was quite a sophisticated machine for that time). It was fun while lasted, but thankfully I do not have to come back to those days. The time consumption of learning specific gear "tricks" and "workarounds" + hardware limits is responsible in part for creative stagnation that lasted years for me. I should have adopted faster to new technology.

You keep on saying "I can"... That is great, but that is not what I can, and certainly not what is being requested in this post. It is a particular wish. A wish is different from "finding a way". Nothing is wrong with finding ways. But again, I do not believe a "workaround" is what was requested.

Yes, I want to simply highlight bars and either freeze them or regenerate that selection of all tracks (or selection of tracks, but that is another topic). Not Mixing, Not Cutting, Not going into deep menus, No Audio editors, No bouncing.
...And unfreeze them as needed. Is it possible now - No it is not. Is it acute problem? Nope. Do I want it to see it happened as requested - sure. Do I want a multi tier "workaround" - no thank you.


P.S. I can clearly see what pipeline is proposing. Makes total sense. (+1 pipeline). I am just not enough tech. advanced to know if it is something doable in BIAB given code and backward compatibility. I guess, there could be a block written, that will translate track segment positions and use that data instead of mixing every time...non destructive way as in DAWs.

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#670633 - 08/30/21 12:37 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Isolate what measures to re-generate [Re: RickeG]
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I had a old muso friend that I set a computer studio up for, even though he was used to splicing tapes he soon got used to the computer.
I can get him to come on here and give a guide on tape splicing.

Biab has to move forward you can't keep it in the past, I had a computer that loaded the program from a cassette tape.
If users don't use a DAW and just use Biab chances are they are not up with things and the advancements made after the 90's.
I made do with RealBand for a long time and going through all that I have learnt how things need to be made better, sure if you were stuck out in the woods in a time warp with just RealBand you would get by or someone else maybe just stuck with a tape machine they would get by.
When Util tracks were first released I said the users won't like this and they would have to be improved and the generate added so you actually have that now what you are talking about because of that very reason, I could of said nothing and that's what you would now have, nothing.

That's why I asked, maybe this is too hard to do with Biab and it should be done to the BBPlugin for those that want to use it in a professional environment.
With Biab that is the problem as there are old users with Pentium 100's and IDE hard drives so it's a fight between old and new users, where as the BBPlugin would be all new DAW capable users.

I suggest this instant play in the DAW Plugin Forum and got this response
Quote:
Currently Band-in-a-Box will run on just about anything - pretty sure it'll run on a potato. If we program BB to render everything in realtime, then our users who are still running some very old computers will need a faster CPU, more Ram, faster hard drive, etc.

and I replied:
Quote:
We are talking about the BiabVST not Biab that old users with old PC's with a Pentium 100 use, we are talking about users with high end DAW's not PowerTracks, this is what the BiabVST was made for. You can't hold back modern day studio users with high end DAW's because of old users from the 90's.
That's why I said get all the generate code into the BiabVST then development will be at the speed of light away from the old BBW4 code.
There will still always be a Delphi Band In A Box for all those users that are comfortable and at home with it.

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#670635 - 08/30/21 01:37 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Isolate what measures to re-generate [Re: Rustyspoon#]
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JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rustyspoon#
Charlie,
simple truth. I believe anyone born after 1990 is not looking for a "decades old multi track recording techniques."
They will be more inclined to use "modern and automated techniques" The last time I used a hardware multitrack was about 20 years ago. (and that was quite a sophisticated machine for that time). It was fun while lasted, but thankfully I do not have to come back to those days. The time consumption of learning specific gear "tricks" and "workarounds" + hardware limits is responsible in part for creative stagnation that lasted years for me. I should have adopted faster to new technology.

You keep on saying "I can"... That is great, but that is not what I can, and certainly not what is being requested in this post. It is a particular wish. A wish is different from "finding a way". Nothing is wrong with finding ways. But again, I do not believe a "workaround" is what was requested.

Yes, I want to simply highlight bars and either freeze them or regenerate that selection of all tracks (or selection of tracks, but that is another topic). Not Mixing, Not Cutting, Not going into deep menus, No Audio editors, No bouncing.
...And unfreeze them as needed. Is it possible now - No it is not. Is it acute problem? Nope. Do I want it to see it happened as requested - sure. Do I want a multi tier "workaround" - no thank you.


P.S. I can clearly see what pipeline is proposing. Makes total sense. (+1 pipeline). I am just not enough tech. advanced to know if it is something doable in BIAB given code and backward compatibility. I guess, there could be a block written, that will translate track segment positions and use that data instead of mixing every time...non destructive way as in DAWs.


THANK YOU! I agree 100%! It is so tiresome to hear wishes dismissed with a "BIAB can already do that" when, in fact, it cannot! Don't get me wrong, I deeply appreciate power users explaining their process to achieve things BUT the wish is clear and unambiguous. It does not ask for a workaround for editing tracks that are converted to audio tracks. It simply asks that we be able to select bars and regenerate those bars.

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#670653 - 08/30/21 04:47 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Isolate what measures to re-generate [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
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Quote:
It does not ask for a workaround for editing tracks that are converted to audio tracks. It simply asks that we be able to select bars and regenerate those bars.

Yes, precisely.
And this absolutely possible. It just needs to have the code written to do exactly that.
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#670736 - 08/30/21 03:27 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Isolate what measures to re-generate [Re: RickeG]
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This is what the user requested, if I can do it this way in Reaper so too Biab could. BUT, again if it's too hard in Biab to modify then just do it in the BBPlugin.
Full Screen


Full Screen


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#670822 - 08/31/21 08:27 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Isolate what measures to re-generate [Re: RickeG]
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Charlie Fogle Online   content
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I would like to see a gif where you attempt the same thing you've done in Reaper but this time do it in BIAB on a single Utility Track. Demonstrate highlighting a bar and regenerate just those highlighted bars in BIAB and also regenerate the region 5 times like you've done in Reaper and come to the forum and place a ✔or X if you accomplished the task in BIAB or not.
✔ - Means BIAB can do it.
X - Means you were unable to do the task.

PG Music says that using a Utility Track you can:

1. Generate RealTracks on a Utility Track.

2. You can generate the ENTIRE RealTrack from the track menu, complete with RealCharts.

3. You can also generate highlighted sections of the Utility track.

4. You can change the highlighted section to a completely different RealTracks instrument.

5. Cross fades will automatically create smooth transitions.

6. You can non-destructively convert a mono track into a stereo track so a stereo instrument can be merged with a mono instrument.

7. Regions regenerated multiple times can be seen and auditioned and selected using Undo/Redo command.
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#670856 - 08/31/21 12:46 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Isolate what measures to re-generate [Re: Charlie Fogle]
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Is this what you need ?


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#670879 - 08/31/21 03:06 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Isolate what measures to re-generate [Re: Pipeline]
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Charlie Fogle Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Pipeline
Is this what you need ?


No, actually it isn't. Multi Riffs were rejected by forum members as a regeneration tool in the thread "Unfreeze/regenerate one bar on one channel" on 5/28/21 and Multi Riffs haven't been mentioned in this thread.


Read through this thread and the one mentioned and you'll see folks don't think BIAB can do this and may be confused by your proposal and gifs that Reaper is doing what BIAB can't do. The plain truth is Utility Tracks generate RealTracks with the same steps that's done on Legacy Tracks. In addition, Utility Tracks can also do partial bar regeneration.

You are highly respected and perhaps if you demonstrate Utility Tracks generating RealTracks, highlighting bars and regenerating only the highlighted regions like you've demonstrated in Reaper, they'll have a better understanding.
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#670912 - 08/31/21 06:06 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Isolate what measures to re-generate [Re: Charlie Fogle]
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Sorry I'm at a loss here where you are going. Bear with me I'll get there.
"I would like to see a gif where you attempt the same thing you've done in Reaper but this time do it in BIAB on a single Utility Track. Demonstrate highlighting a bar and regenerate just those highlighted bars in BIAB and also regenerate the region 5 times like you've done in Reaper"
Isn't that what the pic represents ?
Unless you want a take system like Reaper and toggle through the multiriffs in a section of track ?

"Multi Riffs were rejected by forum members" ?????

My posts are about playing files direct from disk that Reaper does.

The main problem with Util tracks are they are wav and users wanted them to behave as regular BB tracks. I'm trying to get Reaper features in Biab so this can all happen thus the Reaper gifs,
as I don't know if you can have all these tracks in RAM along with all the multiriff takes and more than 255 bars ? where as if it's just data that tells BB what section of this here file to play:
D:\bb\RealTracks\Bass, Acoustic, Bossa Ev 110\bs1266.wav
rather than piecing it together first and storing it to RAM or then writing it to wav.
At the moment Util Track Gen is a make do until..

The whole idea of Utility tracks came from all my posts with EnergyXT:




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#670923 - 08/31/21 08:29 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Isolate what measures to re-generate [Re: RickeG]
Registered: 04/07/13
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Loc: South Carolina
Charlie Fogle Online   content
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Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 6732
Loc: South Carolina
<< My posts are about playing files direct from disk that Reaper does. >>

This remark will work.

<< The main problem with Utility tracks are they are wav and users wanted them to behave as regular BB tracks. I'm trying to get Reaper features in Biab so this can all happen thus the Reaper gifs. >>

I've heard that said. Why would that matter if true? A RealTrack must be rendered into an audio file (WAV, WMA, MP3, MP4) to be used in a DAW and the same is true for a RealTrack generated on a Utility Track and the same is true for Reaper. What's the significance to a user creating an audio file? On a Utility Track, the file has to be saved before a user can access that audio in any audio format. There's no difference to the user between recording live audio onto a Utility Track and generating a RealTrack. That's better than a regular legacy track which cannot contain audio unless it's been converted into an audio file (WAV, WMA, MP3, MP4). The same is true for a Utility Track. Although the WAV file is visible in the Audio Editor Window, the content isn't until that track is saved and a WAV file created. To a user, they're functionally identical as the end result.

In Reaper, aren't you going into the RealTracks folder and accessing the RealTrack audio, D:\bb\RealTracks\Acoustic Strumming Hank Sw 120\AcG011.WAV?
The 5 rendered tracks in your gif are WAV files as well as the comp track being a WAV file. I understand the direct file from disk access rather than BIAB going through RAM and the obvious speed difference but that's how the RealTrack audio is sourced in both Reaper and BIAB.

How does a regular BB track behave differently than a Utility Track that makes Utility Tracks a workaround rather than a feature? What do users want done differently?


Edited by Charlie Fogle (08/31/21 08:36 PM)
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