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#648897 - 03/27/21 07:23 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Old Muso's Bar View
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https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=648328#Post648328
Originally Posted By: justanoldmuso
All.
please PLEASE can someone do a new graphic (cos i'm vision impaired) LIKE biab piano roll BUT get rid of the keyboard at the left, and replace with 16 traks vertically. trak 1/trak2/>>>trak 16........


See if I have this right how you would like to see it.


It should reflect Rusty's new F5 Settings dialog.
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=648747#Post648747


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#648941 - 03/28/21 05:14 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Pipeline]
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Pipeline.
excellent !
only addition i would like , is, vertical user nameable "markers" (like in reaps).
eg intro, verse 3, chorus 4, bridge 2, lead break 1, outtro etc etc whatever the user names.
if you could amend the graphic to include vertical markers , that would be the "cherry on top" for me.

this then makes it easier for a user to line up biab arrange with daw arramge via markers.

"then" to get really "snazzy" (i'm sceptical i'll ever see it lol) lets say a user wants to "drop" a particular biab section of a trak eg lets say first 3 bars of verse 4 into the daw , thus hilite for that trak in bars view and drag/copy section into daw at same verse 4 marker. see what i mean ?
correlating markers in bars view and daw makes for a nice feature imho.

maybe as pg already have a lot of programming code for bars view the addition of all the ideas weve all discussed is doable from a codeing standpoint. eg rustys new F5 etc etc.

best.
oldmuso
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#648960 - 03/28/21 06:17 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Pipeline]
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Nice Pipeline. A big +1 from me!

Jeff
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#648997 - 03/28/21 08:59 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: justanoldmuso]
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I made the chords editable, you can change region color and and region name color, unless the text has the same color background might be easier to code.
When I drag the Region or Chord lane up/down they increase/decrease in size.

Highlight section of bars and Drag Track name to export to DAW and Master track to drag all.
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#649001 - 03/28/21 09:13 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Pipeline]
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Now I highlighted the bars by ctrl drag then hold ctrl drag again to highlight the Sax track section and maybe do the same with shift click.
Now I can drag the Master to render those track's sections or hit "Generate Selected Bars/Tracks".
If I ctrl drag the track name to another track name it will copy that track or section of track to another track, or shift drag to move along with the Hold, Shot... .
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#649057 - 03/28/21 03:51 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Pipeline]
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one word FABULOUS ! now any user can match with their daw markers.

thus to sum up.
1. to set initial params of a trak. eg vols/pans/patches/plug ins. clik on trak name or no. or i guess user could use first "cel" on left hand side for a trak. (user should be able to change trak name.)
2. trak overrides done useing "cels"/"boxes". F5 etc.

i would be amazed if any user didnt like the graphic you did .
best and much respect.
oldmuso
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#649061 - 03/28/21 04:10 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: justanoldmuso]
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Yes the tracks rename same as mixer.
There is an option the export the region track as midi markers in the Midi Chord Track by dragging the C7 button or right click it for options.
Another thing it will do is play from one region to any other region smoothly same as the smooth seek in Reaper by a region playlist that you simply create from the regions.
This way you can try different arrangements and it will render the track in the play order.
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#649088 - 03/28/21 08:10 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Pipeline]
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And solo mute
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#649167 - 03/29/21 02:13 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Pipeline]
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I can't see this to be too difficult to code compared to Tabs, It would just be displaying a table of all the current settings I would of thought.
See it would just have a region list so you can double click on Bridge and it would play that so this would be like a Tab view, and as mentioned you can create the arrangement by choosing the sections and order to play/render. Maybe have a floating window option so as you select that section it will display it in the chord sheet view also.
But yeah try and get that smooth seek working for audio like you had with midi conductor, this will then also work for using Biab as live chord input .


https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/power-arranging-reaper





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#649213 - 03/29/21 07:55 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Pipeline]
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So it should be able to zoom the chosen region section showing the linear chord progression and it could zoom that section of the chord sheet in/out to fit the view, if you have the Bar window floating.
Maybe you could have the region section color reflected in the chord sheet ?


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#649215 - 03/29/21 08:07 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Pipeline]
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So say you have a region song section Chorus 3 yellow as you select that section it will zoom those bars on the Chord Sheet to fit the window:


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#649238 - 03/30/21 03:08 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Pipeline]
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I get this wish item workflow. I do. It is linear, something similar to DAW. Cakewalk intruduced "arranger" track recently which is something similar. Where you "define" regions as chorus, verse or whatever and flip them around as you wish.

But.. I just do not see how it can substitute "bar settings" as we have it now. How would you mute/unmute indidual tracks at the bar? Back to normal tracks? change style at bar? Poking at tiny cells and mousing around to do these things seems quite unreasonable and time consuming. I guess the bigger question is... Is it a wish to replace "bar settings" page as we know it or add (as an option) another view?
-----------

Not that I see a song "structure" as big issue, but here is another idea. Imagine chord view as we have it now. Select (highlight) a section->right click have an option there "define section".
Clicking that will give you some choices for stardard parts (intro, chorus.etc) and a choice of custom naming and coloring for these selected group.
Once you do that the arranger / region line would add that section on top as you imagined. Clicking on those upper parts will get you to them in similar way as navigator does.Perhaps zooming in just that part Dragging specific region(s) to DAW will drag these specific region(s) to DAW, maintaining proper spacing.
Meaning, if you select "intro" and "ending" it will retain muted "space" between them to properly sit in the DAWs timeline.

------------------
Again, I do understand the benefits of workflow wish you proposed (+1), but I see very little relationship with unifying 2 menus within "settings at the bar" I wished for. They are different fruits. My idea is basically combining most options, making them editable at specific bar within a single page and Muso+Pipeline idea deals with aranger "regions", navigation and export.

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#649240 - 03/30/21 04:19 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Rustyspoon#]
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This is not "substituting "bar settings"", I think the F5 settings dialog you made would be mandatory I would say, but as I said the settings would be mirrored in the Bar view same as the chords are mirrored in Chord Sheet, Piano Roll, Notation etc.., like some prefer to see notation and some piano roll notes.
How you tell there is a setting for a bar is that it shows a red underscore, but the only way you can see what it is, is to go into it and if you have many in a song... you would need a good memory, the Bar view gives an instant view of what's what, if you wanted to see where a section is muted it could be red in color, you could also color the Hold, Shot etc.. as you won't have a visual with the extra tracks as you don't want to try and cram all the exempts after the chord name.
This works for those that use color and visuals rather than numbers.
"Select (highlight) a section->right click have an option there "define section". " yes that would be mirrored in the Bar window.
The design is to try and cover different ways users prefer to work.
Like you have spectral editing you can "see" right away rather than listening to the whole area.






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#649241 - 03/30/21 04:42 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Pipeline]
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It would be pointless to have the Bar window showing Holds etc.. for all tracks and the F5 showing 8 tracks. I can't see any way of not having all those settings and chord options you showed in F5 and even the Hold Push vol/pos offset. The same in the Chord Settings dialog that will mirror the Chord Options Tab in F5.
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#649251 - 03/30/21 05:59 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Pipeline]
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Ohh, SORRY I thought that this wish was in some way to replace standard view or Bar settings.
As an additional block building view it is great!

How about being able to swap upper bar with song block view? see attached.


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#649267 - 03/30/21 08:15 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Rustyspoon#]
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Rusty.
the idea is NOT to replace anything currently.
just to add features to current bars view found in rb and powertraks.
(add to bb).
1. mute/unmute. maybe right clik on a cel , up comes F5 etc etc. like you have laid out for any override.
OR enter an "M" in a cel ?? lots of alternatives.
which is why i said upthread a "legend" might be a good idea useing letters of the alphabet that a user can enter into a cel useing computer kbd for quik actions/shortcuts etc.
2. re mousing around. irrespective of any "computer input method" /interraction by user, given the nature of the beast doing songs.
there will always be lots of mouse useage. i use the mouse constantly currently. cant get away from it imho

to summarise. no getting rid of anything in bb that users are used to.
just, for users like myself that like to think in terms of song "structure" ie intros/verses/bridges/solos/refrains/outtros etc etc
an enhanced bars view would be very nice.

frankly i'm sceptical whether we will see implementation
of these wishes. given another users comments about the wishlist.

now lets look at another "unforeseen benefit" that might bring lots of new users to BB.
ie "Music for picture". driven by "film scenes".
thus each region/music section nameable by a user could be named such things as "eerie violins 1m12secs" or "crowd applause 6m 14secs" or "footsteps 8m23secs" or "trumpets " or "synth scream " or or or etc etc. (just an idea)

in summary a very flexible bars view.
lets take a very simple example. your working on a RD drum trak thats on trak 12,and your buddy says "ooh i ,like that fill at bar 33. could we have the same fill at bar 45 "? no problem via quik copy and paste useing the cels/boxes for trak 12.

all sorts of possibilities in bars view.

rusty , if your really worried that something is missed, just post an example that worries you, and i'll post back how the bars view would do it. ie post something like "silly old muso lol how would you do the following ?"
fair enough ?
best
oldmuso.
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#649304 - 03/30/21 12:36 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Rustyspoon#]
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Yes you can have the option to have the regions showing up top.

Here's what BB needs to change bars smoothly:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rumrtniydtk6lmm/Reaper-BB21-Smooth-Seek.mp4?dl=0

You can have muted section displayed in red, a right click could clear or highlight then right click to set state.

I was looking for a shortcut to access track menus instead of right click but I can't find them ??
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#649341 - 03/30/21 04:26 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Pipeline]
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Muso,
I am worried about global warming, this is fun stuff smile
Solid idea and excellent detailing!

P.S. I found Pipeline's latest post on "change bars smoothly" very interesting.

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#649361 - 03/30/21 08:09 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Pipeline]
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Pipeline, that looks excellent, Thank You for the mock up!
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#649375 - 03/31/21 12:04 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Rustyspoon#]
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Smooth seeking options in Reaper lets you change after 1 or more measures or at next region, to get it to change after 1 or more beat I insert a temporary region:


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#649502 - 03/31/21 04:41 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Rustyspoon#]
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Originally Posted By: Rustyspoon#
..How about being able to swap upper bar with song block view? see attached.



With all the new tracks and users wanting them to converge with standard tracks there could be accessed from the Bars window or Mixer.
This way as you say you could display the song regions and clicking that region it would zoom it, and it would work like a Tab that Old Muso wanted:


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#649514 - 03/31/21 05:31 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Pipeline]
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To keep the option to show Tracks or Regions we can make the Track scroll to show them all, and when you mouse wheel over it, it will scroll left/right and do the same with the regions display, arrow at each end and mouse scroll:
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#649531 - 03/31/21 06:51 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Pipeline]
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All these mock ups, I think it would have been quicker doing the code.
So you could have the top bar view config on the left and the C7 drag Midi chords with region name markers or chord name markers, configured by right click.
What else does it need ?


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#649533 - 03/31/21 07:00 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Pipeline]
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At 4k it would all fit:
Fit to Screen
Fit to Screen


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#649570 - 04/01/21 04:41 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Pipeline]
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all good stuff.
as well as your new bars view graphic i really like this one
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=16752&filename=BB21-Song-Section-Zoom.gif

very "yummy".

going back to bars view for a moment, i feel there would be less "toing" and "froing" between daw and biab if bars view were enhanced BECAUSE bars view lets one move bits of midi and audio around so very easily.
and "experiment" at different time slots.
there is just so much arrange flexibility in bars view.

one minor thing. i feel slide is a far more flexible feature then push. cos in the past if i couldnt get push to work the way i wanted, what i would do is "slide"
the bit of midi from biab in the daw.

nice ideas pipeline.
but will we ever see them implemented ?

best
old-downhill skier/slider-muso.


Edited by justanoldmuso (04/01/21 04:44 AM)
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#649631 - 04/01/21 10:07 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: justanoldmuso]
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Originally Posted By: justanoldmuso
..going back to bars view for a moment, i feel there would be less "toing" and "froing" between daw and biab if bars view were enhanced BECAUSE bars view lets one move bits of midi and audio around so very easily.
and "experiment" at different time slots.
there is just so much arrange flexibility in bars view.

one minor thing. i feel slide is a far more flexible feature then push. cos in the past if i couldnt get push to work the way i wanted, what i would do is "slide"
the bit of midi from biab in the daw....


What do you need "ENHANCED" in Bar view ?

I put a slider in Rusty's F5 to "Slide" the Push & Holds is this what you mean ?
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#649730 - 04/02/21 03:46 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Pipeline]
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Pipeline.
re slider.
jeesh , my vision, apologies.
i just didnt see it.
best
oldmuso
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#650236 - 04/05/21 08:20 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: justanoldmuso]
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Currently the Util Tracks are just able to generate RealTracks using the Soloist RT generator window.
You will need all the Generate options RT RD MST UT Loop.. with the Multi Tab Picker , when you right click "Choose Instrument Change for Selection" it will bring up the Multi Tab Picker.
So in the pic it will show where there is a track change and the name, the name will be offset if there is a Hold Shot etc..
So I can select the bars where the UT changes and Regenerate any section of the UserTrack same with RT RD MST.
Loops can be changed also in F5 or right click this will allow for another Loop or some Loops come with Holds Shots n Endings, so you can add these in.
I have asked for Hold and Ending in the Loops dialog to set the associated Hold and Ending wav file.

What else do you need in the Right click dialog ?
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#650253 - 04/06/21 12:38 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Pipeline]
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So I ctrl click the cells to select then right click to insert Hold
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#650255 - 04/06/21 01:42 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Pipeline]
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Floating Bar View Window:
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#650274 - 04/06/21 04:01 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Pipeline]
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WOWSER !! thats all i can say.
superb the amount of effort you put in.
sorry once again for my vision problems.
muso
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#650275 - 04/06/21 04:05 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: justanoldmuso]
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Vision problems: get a TV for your pc.
Use ctrl + mouse wheel to zoom your browser.
In Windows use ctr + alt + mouse wheel to zoom your screen.
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#650381 - 04/06/21 04:01 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Pipeline]
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Pipeline.
thanks but already do that and use a tv too.
best
oldmuso
ps i think i'll dance in the streets if we ever get that bars view etc etc.
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#650798 - 04/09/21 01:39 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: justanoldmuso]
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Another thing that came to me was the word Degenerate, this could allow you to go back anytime select a section that was previously generated over and select Degenerate to get the old one back as the new one is %^&* and the old was better.
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#650807 - 04/09/21 03:01 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Pipeline]
Registered: 03/07/18
Posts: 2728
Rustyspoon# Offline
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Registered: 03/07/18
Posts: 2728
Degenerate huh? smile
I was thinking about something similar too, but in slightly different angle.
To "generate a copy" straight to another track (Utility for example) or even better to "first available empty track", if they will have same functions as legacy tracks. That way you can hear both generations without having to re-generate anything and if you like parts of one and parts of other, you can keep both and mute things you do not want.... or delete one ... or..

Merge two tracks into one... keeping all the bar settings of each. With some kind of easy, "user friendly" mechanism. Select tracks right on mixer-> right click> merge selected.

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#650811 - 04/09/21 03:28 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Rustyspoon#]
Registered: 02/05/15
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Pipeline Offline
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Posts: 6296
I'm not sure if undo would put it back in but this way you can still do it even after other undos.

Yes, you can take it further than the simple Degenerate.
Be able to select from previous generations with a right click even.
If they can get over to that Play Direct method it would be just be storing the track section data from the previous generations that you can select from and it would instantly play it without it being in other track.
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#650833 - 04/09/21 05:22 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Pipeline]
Registered: 07/12/00
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Matt Finley Offline
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Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
This showed up in a another thread and I tested it. You cannot Undo a Regenerate.

The workaround would be to keep saving versions under different names so you could always go back to a previous file. But as for a Degenerate function, +1.

As long as it refers to the program and not me.
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#650871 - 04/10/21 03:57 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: Old Muso's Bar View [Re: Matt Finley]
Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 12846
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
VideoTrack Online   content
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Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 12846
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Maybe a User Selectable Option that could be used so that every time a new generation is created, a backup is automatically created of the existing song, with an incremental file name convention:
MySong_001.MGU
MySong_002.MGU
MySong_003.MGU
MySong_004.MGU
MySong_005.MGU
etc...

This could be automatically saved in a 'backups' sub-folder from where the original song was loaded from.
e.g. C:\MyMusicSongs\Backups\
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