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#655021 - 05/09/21 05:53 PM [Off-Topic] Re: DAY JOB? [Re: 90 dB]
Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 5753
Loc: Akron, Oh
eddie1261 Offline
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Just wanted to add some graphics.

This is how far the back fence is from the back steps. That's 75 ft from the back steps and my yard is 60 feet wide. That woods goes to the left 5 properties, to the right 5 properties, and then wraps around the end of the dead end street where I live, and it's about 400 feet deep. It's 20 acres in total. And there is a Sunoco gas pipeline buried there so nobody can ever build there. Deer, wild turkeys, raccoons, squirrels, groundhogs, (all the usual woods animals) live back there, and twice a year or so I see pheasant



The back of that fire pit (which will be gone) will be the back of the 14x14 building.



The aforementioned alarm system. That tail never stops wagging, but he has a protective edge bred into him, so when the bell goes off, he will throw down.

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#655077 - 05/10/21 08:13 AM [Off-Topic] Re: DAY JOB? [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 7671
Guitarhacker Offline
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eddie1261
Quote:
So adding those things up Herb, obviously you know electricity, and I will also assume you wired your studio building. So my question is this. How big a circuit breaker does that studio run on? Knowing that not every piece of gear is not always powered on, and knowing what I typically have powered on at once running on a 15 amp breaker, can I then assume that I could tap off the power in the garage that runs on a 20 and pretty much only powers the garage door opener? (Which, of course, only draws power when it is going up or down.) If I could break off of that it would make life easy if I built that studio building. I'd only have to trench about 10 feet from the garage to bury the conduit. The power in the upstairs studio as it is right now powers the computer and monitor, 2 powered speakers, and a keyboard or guitar amp, depending on what I am doing. I don't pop the 15 amp breaker, so I can't imagine I'd pop a 20! I plan to have skylights for daytime use and the same lamp I have up there now if I work at night. I would use spray foam insulation so it won't be loud.

Really considering this! My local code allows me 200 sq ft without a permit, so I'd go 14x14 (192). And if there are no permits for size, I can have my friend run that electric over without a permit too since the city won't even know I am building. Probably looking at a mini split for HVAC, but still doing research. I don't even know yet if they run on 110 or if I'd need 220 for it. If it does, THEN the game plan changes. Though as I think about a 14x14 room, a mini split seems like WAY overkill. I heat a 12x14 bedroom with a portable heater. Logic would seem like a portable cooler would do the same. Even a 5000 BTU room AC would be way too much for that space. Before my house had central AC I cooled a 16x14 living room with a 5000 BTU window AC and it got TOO cold in there. I have 2 small ceramic room heaters. Room HVAC seems like it may be an expense I don't need to incur.



So.... I have a main service panel with 4 double pole spaces and a 200A main. The house is on the 200 amp lugs fed through. My water pump is on one double pole space, the garage is on another, a surge suppressor is on another and I wired my studio to another.

The studio is wired with #10 UF on a 30a breaker. It's approximately 150 feet or so from the service to the studio. I knew I was going to add heat and air with a ductless mini split. Trust me, you will want heat and air in your studio if for no other reason than to reduce the humidity your gear is living in. However, on cold winter nights and hot summer days, I can work on my music in 68 to 72 degree comfort. Window AC is really loud whereas a mini split is extremely quiet. You don't hardly know it's on which is really nice when you are tracking vocals.

I have a sub panel in the studio wired for 240v. All the normal stuff is on the 120v circuits single pole breakers. I run a pair of computers, a mini fridge (gotta have beer and water you know) and lights plus all the outboard stuff for the studio and a pair of lava lamps. I also feed the pole barn lights and fans from this sub panel. If you decide to get a mini split, get a 240v model since the power drawn is less than the some one in 120v models.

Given the info you provided.... Is the 20a cb for the garage a single or double? If it's a single.... you would want to consider swapping it to a 2 pole to get you 240v to the garage. Your friend ...who hopefully knows how to work with electricity and do things by code.... even though you're not pulling permits.... can look at the wiring and see how difficult or easy it would be switching from 120v to 240v. Going to 240 lets you double the available current and use a 240v mini split. If the garage is fed with #12 UF, it's not difficult to convert to 240v. The key is if you can get proper, code compliant, grounding at the sub panel in the garage. That is seriously important. Not only for safety, but to have quiet gear without those annoying ground loop hums.

Regarding the mini split sizing.... the companies that sell them have room size calculators on their websites. Calculate the room size and insulation values of the walls, and ceiling. There's a size that will be recommended. if it's close to the upper edge of the envelope.... size it up. However, don't go too big or you risk other issues.

Hopefully this helps answer some of your questions. If you have more, just ask.


Edited by Guitarhacker (05/10/21 08:16 AM)
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#655089 - 05/10/21 08:38 AM [Off-Topic] Re: DAY JOB? [Re: 90 dB]
Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 5753
Loc: Akron, Oh
eddie1261 Offline
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This is the kind of thread that makes me love forums. Knowledgeable people (you) will to help an idiot (me). I have SOME construction background, and I can build with wood well enough that I could assemble a shed kit up to the point where the shell is standing. THEN comes the stuff I don't know. Running Romex though the studs, for example. How much excess do I leave? What do I once I decide where the electric entry point to the building will be? DO I want a panel out there or is this all going to be powered from the panel in the basement and just the 2 circuits Romex will run through a buried conduit? The ethernet stuff I can handle. If the power will be on a panel then I call Brian the electrician and have him do it at a level where I DO spend money for a permit. There won't be water out there other than what falls onto the top of it.

Keeping in mind that this is all in the "considering" phase...

You guys know your stuff!! And I appreciate you sharing it.
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#655142 - 05/10/21 01:44 PM [Off-Topic] Re: DAY JOB? [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 7671
Guitarhacker Offline
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Originally Posted By: eddie1261
This is the kind of thread that makes me love forums. Knowledgeable people (you) will to help an idiot (me). I have SOME construction background, and I can build with wood well enough that I could assemble a shed kit up to the point where the shell is standing. THEN comes the stuff I don't know. Running Romex though the studs, for example. How much excess do I leave? What do I once I decide where the electric entry point to the building will be? DO I want a panel out there or is this all going to be powered from the panel in the basement and just the 2 circuits Romex will run through a buried conduit? The ethernet stuff I can handle. If the power will be on a panel then I call Brian the electrician and have him do it at a level where I DO spend money for a permit. There won't be water out there other than what falls onto the top of it.

Keeping in mind that this is all in the "considering" phase...

You guys know your stuff!! And I appreciate you sharing it.




When it comes to running the wire.... If you're not knowledgeable about it, hire it out to a licensed electrician.

If you plan on running pipe underground, be sure you have wire with insulation rated for wet location. Be sure to size it at least one trade size bigger. And put a spare pipe in the ground too. You might not think you need it and you might never need it but if you do, you will regret not spending a few minutes to include it.

Romex is not rated for wet or damp. Minimum of 6" of wire out of the box to work with. Generally the closest place is where you come in.
Yes i would have a small panel for the studio so it's easy to reset breakers and it saves on wire costs. No long homeruns to a panel in the basement. And i believe if it's a separate building.... It's supposed to have the breakers in that building for safety reasons.

Of course you want everything done correctly but especially when it comes to your electric.


Edited by Guitarhacker (05/10/21 01:48 PM)
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#655167 - 05/10/21 05:02 PM [Off-Topic] Re: DAY JOB? [Re: 90 dB]
Registered: 05/19/20
Posts: 827
Simon - PG Music Offline
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I can't speak for the electrical part, but building the actual studio building - I would personally avoid doing 14x14, since square rooms will create all sorts of acoustic issues (generally will be frequency response issues in the room which will affect your mixing and recordings). I'd do something more like 16x12 or 18x11. I'm not an expert on acoustics, but you should take a look at a room mode calculator like this: https://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm


Edited by Simon - PG Music (05/11/21 10:49 AM)
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#655178 - 05/10/21 06:47 PM [Off-Topic] Re: DAY JOB? [Re: 90 dB]
Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 5753
Loc: Akron, Oh
eddie1261 Offline
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Ah yes. The lava lamps!!!



I don't know much about my electrical panel but I know I have 200 amp service and I have a lot of room to expand. I have a text in to the electrician that did my work when I bought the house and guy up the street with a trencher to dig for the conduit to be buried in. I have a lot of the ancillary pieces in place. Just no cement pad or building to set on it! LOL!!
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#655186 - 05/10/21 07:48 PM [Off-Topic] Re: DAY JOB? [Re: 90 dB]
Registered: 07/10/15
Posts: 1246
Loc: Miami, Florida
Planobilly Offline
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Eddie, one of the cost issues is copper wire to run from the house to the new building. The closer the building the better. The wire needs to be sized for no more than a 3% voltage drop.

I am just guessing because I don't remember how long the wire needs to be but 8 gauge will probably work. 8/4 will cost apx three dollars per foot. 6/4 is around four dollars per foot. Underground cable direct burial.

To be in code there has to be a shut off box on the outside of the building. Normally a service panel of some sort mainly for the fire department. Then a service panel/breaker box inside.

The elect part of this project is nothing to screw around with for many reasons. I know how to do all this stuff but I always hire a licensed electrician and pull a permit. I may actually do the work to save money but I have a electrician to back me up.

Billy

Billy


Edited by Planobilly (05/10/21 08:02 PM)

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#655188 - 05/10/21 08:14 PM [Off-Topic] Re: DAY JOB? [Re: 90 dB]
Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 5753
Loc: Akron, Oh
eddie1261 Offline
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It is going to be 20 feet of wire just to leave the house. My service is at the northwest corner of the house. It will leave the house in the northeast corner and run 20 more feet to where the building would be. So 40 feet to get to the building, Then a small panel installation, and an outlet every 8 feet, so about 2 per wall minimum. More likely 3 per wall.

I can only gauge my normal electricity use, but since I had the panel upgrade done right before buying the house (I was a renter here for 4 years and the wiring did not pass inspection) I have not tripped a breaker. I used to have a workshop downstairs and I would try to use the table saw with the shop vac connected to it to suck on the sawdust. As soon as wood hit the blade and added some resistance to the motor, the breaker would trip. Once I had the upgrade to 200 amp and 6 more circuits put into the basement, all on 20 amp breakers, I can now do that simple thing with no concerns. I run a lot 24/7 here but it's all such low draw items my consumption stays relatively low. I have never done what a venue does for sound check where they push all the lights and power amps as far as they could every go to see if anything blows up. I just need it all done to code and everything will be fine. At any given moment the most I will have pulling power is a computer, the 32" TV that is my monitor, the 2 speakers, and a keyboard or guitar amp. I really don't use a lot of current because that's a single purpose room.

What is at the root of this decision is whether I want to spend $5000-ish on this novelty room I may use once a week if that often. It'd be slick to have a building dedicated to a music studio, but the other side of that coin is that I would also have 2 rooms in my upstairs I would never see again. I have 1200 sq feet here and that is very roomy for a single guy with a dog who never has company. The logic is that if I DID have this cool little "escape" room I might work more on music. I am in a complete rut the last year or so and I have no idea how to get out of it. I have no ideas for songs, my days are all exactly the same to the point where I oft7en check my mailbox on Sunday because unless it's football season I really don't know what day it is. Because I don't have to!
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#655229 - 05/11/21 09:28 AM [Off-Topic] Re: DAY JOB? [Re: 90 dB]
Registered: 04/08/11
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Loc: Akron, Oh
eddie1261 Offline
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Just a pic of where it would be. It really is square but from where I am standing the proportion is off. It's 14x14 and there are bricks laying on the ground.

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#655232 - 05/11/21 10:52 AM [Off-Topic] Re: DAY JOB? [Re: 90 dB]
Registered: 12/27/13
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Loc: St. Louis, MO. USA
sslechta Offline
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Guess you're not moving down South anymore? grin
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#655237 - 05/11/21 11:51 AM [Off-Topic] Re: DAY JOB? [Re: 90 dB]
Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 5753
Loc: Akron, Oh
eddie1261 Offline
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NO moving for me at my age. Plus up here I have a "support network" of people I can call when I need extra hands for something, or when I have a medical procedure that I can't drive home from. That kind of thing. I am not a "meet-er" (no shock there, eh?) and if I moved anywhere else I would have nobody at all to call for stuff like that. And here I know "places" and such. Best butcher, best pizza, best mechanic, best contractors... I don't want to start adulthood again at 70 and search for "people" again.

I do plan to make a short trip west soon to pick something up from an internet friend....
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#655242 - 05/11/21 01:17 PM [Off-Topic] Re: DAY JOB? [Re: 90 dB]
Registered: 07/10/15
Posts: 1246
Loc: Miami, Florida
Planobilly Offline
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Well Eddie, I totally get not wanting to move. I have considered buying another larger house/move. That is really a pretty stupid idea for me. The only thing that would change would be a bigger garage and a bigger yard.

Then the question becomes move where? I curse south Florida in the summer and love it in the winter. I only want to see snow on TV. I am sure I must have a pair of socks somewhere. I have a jacket but only use it when I go to Europe.

I don't work, but the business has a bad habit of calling me when things go seriously wrong so I need to be around most of the time.

We normally spend a couple of months a year in Europe but the pandemic has put an end to that. Who knows when things will return to normal anywhere.

Second thing is everything is getting so expensive I hope I die before I run out of money...lol

Two days ago, $500 for a new AC for the garage. Thursday I need to take my truck to the shop...$700 for a new starter. Wife wants to go to St Augustine, 7 hours from here to spend a couple of days. Two just born baby doves have decided that they want to live on my front porch and expect me to feed them....lol

Amazon...don't even ask...lol

If you can afford the new building and it is something you want go do it. You are not taking anything with you and you are not going to live forever.

Billy

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#655248 - 05/11/21 01:40 PM [Off-Topic] Re: DAY JOB? [Re: 90 dB]
Registered: 04/08/11
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Loc: Akron, Oh
eddie1261 Offline
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I laugh when I read stories in the news about a guy who was rich and then "tragically lost all his money, then he died." That sounds like PERFECT timing to me. Go to Denny's for one last Grand Slam, and keel over.
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#655270 - 05/11/21 06:12 PM [Off-Topic] Re: DAY JOB? [Re: 90 dB]
Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 7312
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Jim Fogle Offline
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Eddie, Just thinking out loud here; how many times a week do you think you'd trump out to the building after one or more of those lake effect snowfalls ya'll get in the wintertime? I'd be thinking of renovating one of your existing music rooms. Maybe repainting, adding more lava lamps, a disco ball, ferns, whatever gets you excited about one of the rooms again. Could be as simple as just getting a new desk and chair.
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#655313 - 05/12/21 07:58 AM [Off-Topic] Re: DAY JOB? [Re: 90 dB]
Registered: 04/08/11
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Loc: Akron, Oh
eddie1261 Offline
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Jim, the weather is indeed a consideration, but I don't use my music room much NOW so I don't know if that's because I hate the room (which I do) or I am just sick of music (which I am). The picture in this post is what the room would look like if there was no wall and I could shoot a photo of the shape. And this is what I hate about it.



The amount of usable space is cut into by those barn shaped angular walls. About halfway up the sloped walls is 5.5 feet, so everything below that point is barely usable room. The room I'd build would be 192 sq ft of actual usable space. Since I am limited to 200, that is as big as I can go without an expensive permit that has a long list of requirements attached to it.

These are all the things I have to weigh out (or put on the old school Ben Franklin T with the pros on the left and the cons on the right). As considerations grow, so does the price tag. I don't even have a price on the slab yet. That alone may kill the idea! I haven't had to price anything like that since I had a driveway put in 11 years ago. That was 55 feet of prep and concrete, and it came in at $2300. 11 years ago. 4 years ago I asked a guy about a 10x8 area and he wanted $4000! This would be 15x15. Then there's the headache of finding somebody I trust to do it. I have a bad opinion of contractors.

Given that this kind of thing is a toy for me and will never be used professionally, I won't get too concerned about acoustics. I don't record live instruments. The only live music that place would see is if I invited people to come by and just have fun, but I'll never record a live band.


Edited by eddie1261 (05/12/21 08:01 AM)
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#655318 - 05/12/21 09:15 AM [Off-Topic] Re: DAY JOB? [Re: 90 dB]
Registered: 04/08/11
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Loc: Akron, Oh
eddie1261 Offline
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Jim, you got me thinking!! That room I had in that picture was made by the previous owners and those walls represented by the black lines are just framing and drywall that they put in to make bedrooms. I can literally climb across the top of that drywall. Thus, I an also remove it and rebuild it in a different configuration. The would allow for more usable space. The knee wall is only about 42 inches high. I can change the angle of that side wall/ceiling piece by changing the stud work. That seems like a really good thing to consider is just making more usable space. The area between the original walls (black lines) and what would be the new walls (red lines) is right now just dead space. This is probably a really good idea and I have Jim to thank for making me think about it.

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#655350 - 05/12/21 12:30 PM [Off-Topic] Re: DAY JOB? [Re: eddie1261]
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VideoTrack Offline
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Jim just possibly saved you $thousands ? wink
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#655359 - 05/12/21 02:40 PM [Off-Topic] Re: DAY JOB? [Re: 90 dB]
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eddie1261 Offline
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Possibly, Trev. I was hoping to bring that project in at 5000-5500. The shed kit is 3500. The pad is likely going to be 2500. Then someone to build the kit. Then electric, HVAC... Likely come in at 10,000 or over. That's a lot of guitars!
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#655361 - 05/12/21 03:01 PM [Off-Topic] Re: DAY JOB? [Re: 90 dB]
Registered: 05/30/00
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Loc: Mi., USA
rharv Offline
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You can climb across it?
I'm impressed!

If'n it was me, I'd strip it to the outside framing where needed.
Only where needed, and I'd be real careful about anything that looks like a ceiling joist; it may be a cross-tie to keep things from folding up on top of you.
I did this stuff in a former life (20 years construction, everything from carpenter to site superintendent for a new subdivision, so we're back on topic!).
Work extra safe on old houses where structural integrity can be a little more challenging.
Add new wiring so you can heat/cool it when needed.
Frame new ceiling (if needed).
Insulate
Drywall
Paint
Move all your stuff back in ..

Still hard to get done by others for your given budget.

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#655375 - 05/12/21 05:26 PM [Off-Topic] Re: DAY JOB? [Re: rharv]
Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 5753
Loc: Akron, Oh
eddie1261 Offline
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Originally Posted By: rharv
You can climb across it?
I'm impressed!


There are cross pieces I can low crawl on. Otherwise I'd be taking care of demo as I laid my girth on the drywall.

Quote:
I'd be real careful about anything that looks like a ceiling joist; it may be a cross-tie to keep things from folding up on top of you.


I was up there before to restaple some of the insulation up after the roofers banging dropped some of it our of the ceiling rafters. There is nothing up there that wasn't there before the old owners built those bedrooms. They put in those ceilings to not have to heat all the way up to the peak, and I get it, but there has since been a far more efficient furnace put in and the insulation inspected and augmented/replaced where it was necessary. I would probably have the electrician climb around up there and see what he suggested. The biggest HVAC challenge up there is likely in part due to the fact that I seriously doubt the ducts have ever been cleaned. I can vouch for the years since 2004 that they have not, and the people who owner before were such butchers and so cheap I guarantee they NEVER had them done, so there may be 1963 dirt in those heat ducts.

And here's where the suckage comes in. They added a full bathroom up there. That bathroom would make for some extreme engineering/architecture to raise that ceiling all the way up to the roof rafters. I can't explain how little that bathroom means to me other than to say this. Once of the first things I did when I moved in here in Dec 2004 was to turn off the water to that bathroom and it has never been turned on since. Geeze for the first 5 years I lived here I actually blocked off the doorway to get up there with an insulated frame insert I made and then covered with a piece of luan plywood. I had boxes of stuff I never used that went up there when I moved in and in 2009 when I opened the upstairs back up to reassemble a studio I went through those boxes and threw almost 100% of it away. I figured that if I didn't miss it in 5 years...

I may do the building, I may do some renovation, I may do nothing. That's my "mystery wrapped in a riddle" persona.
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Great news! We've created a collection of 100 styles that work with the Band-in-a-Box Pro package contents! In fact, these will work with ANY Band-in-a-Box package!

The brand-new XPro Styles PAK 1 greatly expands your Band-in-a-Box® style library with 100 fully-produced arrangements including 25 rock and pop styles, 25 jazz styles, 25 country styles, and 25 folk styles.

AND IT IS ON SALE UNTIL JUNE 30TH! Add XPro Styles PAK 1 to your collection for only $29... that's 40% off our regular price of $49!

Watch our Demos video, or pick and choose the demos you want to listen to when you visit our XPro Styles PAKs page.

Note: XPro Styles PAK 1 requires RealTracks from Band-in-a-Box® 2021 or higher and is compatible with any package, including Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.

Using Windows? Click here for your XPro Styles PAK 1 page.

Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Mac is Here!

Just released: Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Mac with over 50 new features, 202 RealTracks, new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, Artist Performances, Bonus RealDrums "Singles," RealDrums transcriptions, MultiStyles PAK 1, Xtra Styles PAK 11, and more!

We're having a SALE on Band-in-a-Box® 2021 Upgrade purchases until June 30, 2021 - save up to 50% when you purchase your Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Mac Upgrade!

We've packed our Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK with some amazing Add-ons! The Free Bonus PAK is automatically included with most Band-in-a-Box® for Mac 2021 packages, but for more even more Add-ons (including 40 Unreleased RealTracks and MultiStyles PAK 1) upgrade it to the 2021 49-PAK for only $49. You can see the full lists of items in each package, and listen to demos here.

Check out our Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available.

If you need any help deciding which package is the best option for you, just let us know. We are here to help!

Learn more about all the new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Mac

Read the Band-in-a-Box® 2021 Upgrade Manual: Online Manual | PDF Download
Read the Band-in-a-Box® 2021 Users Guide: Online Manual | PDF Download

Customers LOVE Xtra Styles PAK 11 for Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Windows!

We've added 200 exciting new RealStyles with the just-released Xtra Styles PAK 11 for Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Windows - 50 each for Jazz 11, Country 11, Rock & Pop 11, and Half & Double Time 1!

We think you'll love the new RealStyles and MultiStyles added with Xtra Styles PAK 11, which includes new sounds like modern reggaeton, medieval-inspired folk pop, Americana power ballad, speakeasy vocal jazz, R&B and reggae fusion, and more! In fact, here's what people are saying...

I LOVE the double-time comping electric piano!

Everyone should have these!

These are a must have!

Half and double time styles - yes!

Love what I'm hearing! My compliments to the producer that created them.

These are AWESOME!

Nailed it!

Some really great sounding country styles here!

There are some great styles in this XtraPAK.

XTRA STYLES PAKS ARE ON SALE UNTIL MAY 31st!

During our Xtra Styles PAK 11 for Windows special, all our Xtra Styles PAKs 1-11 are on sale for just $29 each (reg. $49)! Looking for more Xtra Styles PAKs? Until May 31st, you can purchase our complete library of all 1,800+ RealStyles with the Xtra Styles PAK 1-11 Bundle for only $199 (reg. $349)! Learn more and order now.

Interested in a specific genre? These can be purchased for $15 each - pick & choose here.

NOTE: Xtra Styles PAKs require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition version 2020 or 2021. (Xtra Styles PAK 11 requires the 2021 UltraPAK/UltraPAK+/Audiophile Edition.) Xtra Styles PAKs won't work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.

Learn more & listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 11.

Band-in-a-Box® 2021 users should install the latest patch update, which includes support for Xtra Styles PAK 11.

Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Windows is Xtra Ready!

The latest free patch update for Band-in-a-Box® 2021 for Windows readies the program for the just-launched Xtra Styles PAK 11 for Windows (on sale until May 31st - learn more here)!

We've also updated the Song Titles database, resolved user-reported issues for various drum features, and more.

Learn more & download the latest Band-in-a-Box® 2020 build 833 for Windows.

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