PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Cover Bands?

You know how I know Eddie doesn't know much about Motown? <grin>

Motown was a music manufacturing machine.
That had a house band, house writers, vocal teachers, 'dress' teachers, classes on how to handle yourself in public, etc etc.

They use the original house/studio for the museum but at one time Barry Gordy owned a couple of city blocks of houses for rooming, grooming and creating music, etc.

You know how many Motown bands performed songs they didn't write?

As many as how tired I am of hearing that?

Do you think Notes would have been interested in being signed by Motown to teach people how to dress? He's a performer, in a band recruited because of their music, not some college QB who is drafted and then moved to wide receiver....

I am not a chef in a restaurant. That doesn't mean I can't cook.
I am not a carpenter. That doesn't mean I can't build things with wood.
I am not a welder. That doesn't mean I don't know how to weld.

Just because you don't doesn't mean you can't. And if you truly can't that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to learn how.

I dreamed about being both, but if I had to choose between either famous performer or famous writer, I would take writer every time. Diane Warren sings like an air raid siren but she is the best pop music writer ever. Sales says so. Bacharach can't sing at all. How did his writing career go?

I want to be Diane Warren.
I want to be Burt Bacharach.
I want to be Jim Steinman. (RIP Jim.)
I want to be Todd Rundgren.
I want to be David Foster. Sting. Brian Wilson. Carole King. Smokey Robinson.

How many of you saw Jersey Boys? There was a scene in that play where Bob Gaudio sat Frankie Valli down and told him that he was never really all that comfortable on stage or on tour anyway, so Frankie should get some new guys, bill the act as Frankie Valli and the 4 seasons, and Gaudio would keep writing his hits.

That's where I wanted to be. Bob Gaudio, not Frankie Valli.

There's a band called Animals As Leaders fronted by some speedburner guitar guy named Misha Mansour. What he does is very impressive, but it's muscle memory and nothing more. You play those scales that fast long enough and it will become easy for you. Writing is not muscle memory. Writing is English literacy, musical knowledge and storytelling all in one.

Why does everybody want to tell me how wrong I am because I have way more respect for the people who write the songs than the people who just play them? You are free to play Margaritaville and Brown Eyed Girl EVERY night to get paid. I have told you many times that money means nothing to me. (Do you not believe that?) I want to die the day I can't afford to pay for breakfast. I have no concerns with an illness sending me to bankruptcy. I don't care about saving for the future (which might be as short as 1 day). For what? All the expensive travel I do? I barely leave my yard! I have no interest in going to remote corners of the world to be bored out of my mind. A tank of gas lasts me 15-17 days. I don't even HAVE a savings account. I am a consumer. I spend, not save. Save money? To give to nobody when I die? I have no interest in being the richest corpse in the graveyard.

The "Don't know what I'd do with myself if I retired" is pretty much whistling in the graveyard BS. I absolutely LOVE my life. I don't have to do ANYTHING. EVER. 2-3 days can go by when I know I don't have to go anywhere and I don't even put pants on. The argument made by musicians that "I have no bosses." is also a load of crap. Um, yeah you do. The people who make you play Margaritaville and Brown Eyed Girl are your bosses. You play a gig in a big club and you have 400-500 bosses. When you don't have bosses is when you say "I play what I want to play." I am my boss. Nobody else. If you don't like what I write, get the f*** (I censored that) out. Audiences are NOT my friends. They are faceless people in chairs who paid the venue to be entertained and that is their job. To sit there, buy drinks, and be entertained.

If I wrote something good enough that Underwood or Clarkson wanted to sing it, I would just give them the song with the only stipulation being that my name is listed as the writer. (And in essence THEY are doing a cover!) They can keep the money the song earns. Once again, and I don't know why I have to keep saying this, I don't care AT ALL about money. I have enough. What I don't have is a legacy. I care about people knowing my name for my songwriting prowess. I know they never will, but I tried. To say "I can't" about ANYTHING... wow. "Can't" and "don't" are not the same thing. To say "I can't write" is not the same as "I never tried to write". And neither of those is the same as "I CAN write but I choose not to." (Is this where you tell me again that Sinatra didn't write? What arrogance to ever compare yourself to Sinatra.) I respect people who tried and failed WAY more than those who never tried. I have faced the slow death of silence after doing an original before (too often), but I also got applause for them too. It's so much fun to hear people talk out of both sides of their mouth when they say "I don't play music just for money" or "I'd do this for free". And then they say "If you don't play what the crowd wants you won't get booked." Well, if you don't do it for money, so what? Those 2 things are 180 degrees opposed. You can get booked to play original music. Just not at the same places. And for way less money. (But, you don't PLAY because of money, right, so...)

If anybody will get the analogy here, know that when I get a new video game I play it on expert mode first. I don't want to do things I know I can do. I want to be challenged. Mustang Sally was never challenging.

I was responding to that part of your previous post.
Writing was not a prerequisite for Motown. Performing was.
Apparently Notes is/was pretty good at the performance side.
That's all

<< If anybody will get the analogy here, know that when I get a new video game I play it on expert mode first. I don't want to do things I know I can do. I want to be challenged. Mustang Sally was never challenging." >>

So What did you do for your songwriting dream today? "Just because you don't doesn't mean you can't." But it does have a 100% failure rate....

<< "I respect people who tried and failed WAY more than those who never tried." >>

But you also seem to respect people who tried and failed but didn't give up and quit even WAY, WAY more.
Diane Warren, Burt Bacharach, Jim Steinman, Todd Rundgren, David Foster. Sting, Brian Wilson, Carole King and Smokey Robinson to name a few.

You only have to get it right once:

"What if you had to decide between the lure of country stardom — and your heart? Billy Ray Cyrus was once faced with that choice. In 1992, his song "Achy Breaky Heart" took him on what he calls a "rocket ride" — and made him $40 million in one year."
ABC News PrimeTime

Most people associate "Achy Breaky Heart" with Billy Ray Cyrus and not the actual songwriter, Don Von Tress. Mr. Tress has 3 song credits (actually two, "Achy Breaky Heart" was first recorded and released with the title, "Don't Tell My Heart". My recommendation is if you get a song recorded by Underwood or Clarkson, take the money.

My songwriting dream died a painful death some time ago. To continue with that futility would be akin to nechrophilia. I just don't have the talent.

Truthfully Charlie, if I had some kind of windfall from whatever source, most of it would get donated to animal rescues anyway. I'd buy a modest newer house in a better neighborhood and an old Jeep Wrangler to beat the rest of the way to death, but that's about it. I grew up really poor so I don't know about handling real money. And since I trust nobody...

I'd WRITE that Achy song. I wouldn't be caught dead on a stage performing it. One band wanted to do it as a goof and I said "Go ahead, but I'll be offstage." I won't play a song that panders to people with an 87 IQ.

" I won't play a song that panders to people with an 87 IQ."

LOL, You'll have to tell that to someone with a shorter memory than I have! Next you'll say you won't play a song with 'COWBELL'


"Well I've been so downhearted ever since my cow been gone
I'll be so udderly lonesome till my cow comes home" (Eddie1261)12/6/20 "BIG BLACK DOG

"We wrote the lyrics together, but Eddie must take the credit (blame?) for the pun in verse three." (Rog)

What are you talking about? That was f****** brilliant!!!!

Exactly! My point exactly...

Your own work has put to rest all the I've got no talent talk.

Not many people in Motown wrote their own songs. I'd guess 90% or more of their hits were written by staff writers.

Besides, we would have been what eventually became Rare Earth, and they did plenty of Motown covers (Get Ready immediately comes to mind).

I'm sorry you didn't make the big time, and sorry that you are bitter about it. To be fair, with so many musicians out there, the odds are stacked against us.

I was talking to Tom Scott one day when we were playing at the Hyatt of the Palm Beaches. He said (and I'll paraphrase) that there is a sax player somewhere like Valparaiso, Indiana that could put him (Tom) in his back pocket. But I (Tom) was in the right place at the right time, I had the right connections, I showed up on time, I showed up straight, and I could do the job,

That kind of honesty impressed me, and I have a respect for Mr. Scott for that.

IMO the ultimate success in life is to live a happy life. I'm sure others disagree and that's OK.

Insights and incites by Notes

Much like your encounter with Tom Scott, when I was in LA I answered an audition ad for a 4 piece lounge band looking for a sax player. As I stop and think now, it's more like WHY did I answer an ad in LOS ANGELES for a sax player. I got there 45 minutes early and was handed a number. I was number 94. 93 other people wanted that gig SO BADLY that they got there earlier for the audition than I did. As I sat there trying not to pee myself from nerves and shrinking self esteem, I looked across the room and thought I saw Lon Price. I went over and said hello and asked if he was Lon Price. He said "Yes. I am. Nice to meet you." (Polite!) And I asked him "Why are you HERE? You play with Al Jarreau." His reply makes more sense to me now than it did then, but he said "Yeah I do. When Al PLAYS. It's not like he tours all year. I have bills to pay just like you do." And as a starstruck nobody I thought "That's the guy who played that solo on We're In This Love Together and we are vying for the SAME GIG???

To bring the story home, that was something like I had never seen before. It was in a movie theater. Down front was about 6 people behind a mixer and a CD player. We were all waiting in another part of the building so we could not hear what went on before us. I walked out and there were 6 folders on the table next to me. They said "Pick up a folder and tell us what number it is." I picked on up and said "I have number 5." They said "Take the music out of the folder and put it on the stand. When the click track starts, turn the blank first page and pick it up on bar 5."

It was the worst nightmare I had ever lived through. It was in Ab, a HORRIBLE key for me, and I had no time to look it over. It was 2 bars of click track and I had to start playing this 2 minute piece with a key change. That was as embarrassed as I have ever been with a sax in my mouth. I actually can't believe I could play that bad, but that was 2 minutes of living proof. I came out from the torture chamber and as I was putting my horn back a guy a few numbers later asked "How'd it go?" My reply was "After that, I will NEVER do this kind of audition again. I was shocked they didn't stop me halfway through and ask me to leave. Wow."

I don't know who got the gig but it wasn't me, OR Lon. I mean, if Lon Price is not good enough... I ran into him in a bar on Ventura Blvd a few weeks later and we talked for about 10 minutes and he just said "That's the scene out here. They want you to be a great sight reader more than they even care about your actual playing. I don't know which chart you picked but I guarantee you after years of this that they were ALL equally challenging." Then he gave me some tips about how to practice, the most helpful one was to learn EVERY song in EVERY key. And if one particular thing challenges you, work on that the most. To not avoid weaknesses, rather play to overcome them.

I wish I had listened... LOL

Wow, nice story.....

Notes, you still have a chance to be in Rare Earth!! They have 1 date booked this year in September. And I'm sure you know the songs. LOL!!

I played in a number of cover bands.....


Least favorite song had to be Sweet Home Alabama and Free Bird. But we'd play them anyway.

However, we played what the people wanted to hear and played it with a fun attitude.

Songs that I liked to play.... just about all of them. Including the ones we didn't want to play.

One band I was in was essentially a non-commercial indulgence band. We played a lot of the Outlaws ( Green Grass, Girl From Ohio, Knoxville girl, Ghost riders) as well as Marshall Tucker and Charlie Daniels. But most of it was stuff from the albums that wasn't necessarily hits, recognizable to anyone but fans, and mostly non-danceable stuff. That band was fun because we learned a lot of really intricate stuff but it didn't fare well commercially. Go listen to CDB Saddle Tramp for an idea of what a night with us was like. We rarely got invited back to civilian dance clubs. We were good but nobody cared to come see us because they couldn't dance to our music....and we were too blind to see beyond what we wanted to play. It broke up because we couldn't get booked after a while. Lesson learned.

Every band from that point forward was commercially viable and we played a lot...and made a fair living from it. A house band was the last band I was in and that gig was 2.5 years in length. That was one tight band. Boredom started to creep in. It went down in flames in the end.... I had left and a few months later I heard about the disaster.

Nah, I'm happier where I am now.

Rare Earth was called The Sunliners or something like that, and they were Berry Gordy's second choice to be the first all-white band to record on a Motown label.

It wasn't a racist thing, strictly business. Bob Seger had a #1 hit on Detroit Radio, something Motown had 'owned' for a long time and it was a matter of giving the audience what they seemed to be asking for.

We were The Nomads and were Berry's first choice. (At the time I thought is name was Barry and people were just using a Midwest pronunciation.)

The contract they offered us was 2 cents per recorded song on vinyl. Out of those royalties they would deduct inflated recording costs, inflated distribution costs and inflated promotion costs. Plus they wanted to own the publishing rights to anything we wrote, and a Motown 'ghostwriter' who did nothing at all would be listed as a writer and get half the songwriter royalties. In addition, they wanted to own the name, so they could hire and fire and run up to 4 bands with the same name on tour. Motown didn't own the name The Sunliners, but they did own the name Rare Earth.

Our manager figured we'd have to sell over a million LPs our first time out to end up not owing Motown any money. It was a bad offer. When our manager held out for a better deal, they quit talking to us and went to the Sunliners. I don't know what they settled for.

But it was nice playing as the opening act for the Motown Review, before that we had opened for The Association, The Four Seasons and other groups that had current Top10 Billboard Hits plus we opened for other acts that were not in the top 10 but still big like The Kingsmen, The Shirelles, The McCoys, and others.

There were a lot of mind-altering substances, a lot of beautiful women, and a lot of money going around for a few years.

When Motown dropped us, the band members started fighting, and we broke up. I guess it was the realization that if we didn't have an 'in' in the business already, we were bound to be just another exploited group of musicians. We didn't know or were not related to the right people in the recording biz.

I have no regrets, it was fun playing for huge crowds, being treated as peers by the top names in the business, and enjoying the fringe benefits.

BTW, Eddie. I have a customer who uses my styles (and PG styles) with Band-in-a-Box to send songwriting demos to Nashville. He chose Country Music because the Nashville stars generally don't write their own songs. He had had a number of them get published and a few bought by major acts. He sent me a few demos, I could hear my styles plus some additional instruments (mostly flat-top guitar) and some nice singers. It may be too late for you to be a teenage idol, but not to be a songwriter.

Notes

Then when Motown fell through,

Minor factual inaccuracy there. After Rare Earth signed, and they were already Rare Earth (changed from The Sunliners because the old name was not "hip" with bands like Iron Butterfly around), Motown needed a name for their all white artist label. Gil Bridges said "How about Rare Earth?" so they named the label Rare Earth.

Gil Bridges is still playing with them. 2 of them are permanently retired with no intention of ever playing again. 3 are dead. Bridges is 71 (I am a month from 70!!) but he look s like he is 117.

Rare Earth is also NOT represented in the Motown Hall of Fame, and were not invited to be on the 25th Anniversary show. (They WERE invited to be on the 50th year show.)

They lost me when they put a 21 minute version of Get Ready on a whole album side, justifying it because Iron Butterfly did it with In A Gadda Da Vida. Never liked Rare Earth, Vanilla Fudge or any white band trying to be black. But I was already a horn band guy, with Chicago, TOP, Lighthouse and BS&T on my list of faves of the time. Lighthouse, those crazy Canadians, ROCKED. Great horn players and huge arrangements.

This is a deviation from Bob's original question about favorite/least favorite cover songs... but since the thread has already become a discussion about whether or not playing cover songs is the devil's work, here are my personal thoughts. I present this not as universal truth, just as my opinion.


My personal preference is playing cover songs as closely as possible to the original. Yes, I know you can always listen to the original... but there's a reason why classic rock stations still have enough of an audience to make money: people's memories are tied to those songs.

It gets more complicated when you realize that their memory isn't just tied to the lyrics or the chords... some people actually get upset if you "mess up" the song by playing it differently than they remember it. This includes not just note for note reproduction of solos and harmonies... it extends to the signature sound of the amp, guitar, microphone and effects.

Which brings me to the reason WHY I like playing cover songs: I find it to be more challenging than writing my own songs or playing my own version of a cover. Here's an analogy:

If somebody commissioned me to give a speech, the easiest thing for me would be to give a speech on a topic I know, in my own language. But... if the requirement was that I had to give the speech on a topic with which I am not familiar, and in a language I don't know... that would ramp up the difficulty of the project considerably. The more requirements a project has, the harder it is to meet them, and the more likely it is that you will be judged. Its hard to make a scrap part when the blueprint has no tolerances. And the original recording is the standard by which the success of my re-creation will be judged

Jamming is the equivalent of playing in my own musical language. Playing something that Jimi Hendrix or Eric Johnson or Stevie Ray Vaughan would play requires me to learn something I didn't previously know. I have to play in THEIR musical language.

Playing one guitar through one amp with one pedal board allows me to reproduce a limited variety of sounds... but modelling gear is capable of sounding like any amp, cabinet, guitar or stomp box... and effort is required to match the signature sounds to the cover song. To that extent I have a Helix rack with Variax guitar. The Helix has all the amps, cabs and effects while the Variax has built-in models of many guitars used in classic rock songs. Researching what amp, guitar and pedal board was used in the original recording is another layer of challenge that provides fun for me to track down.

I already know all the arguments against what I do. I do it because it pleases me to do it. I don't even like playing in public, so it isn't for the sake of what the audience wants. To me, reproducing songs provides sufficient challenge to keep my old man retired brain engaged and interested... and that's enough reason for me.

I agree with you, but for me -- but not exclusively.

I play some of them as close to the famous recording as possible, including the solo. For example: When doing Santana's version of "Black Magic Woman" I play the guitar solo on the windsynth as close to the original as I am able. I even have a "Carlos" patch on the VL70m synth module. I think Carlos took Peter Green's solo and elevated it.

Others I play as closely as possible but with my own improvised solo. For example: My audience appreciates my wailing on the sax even in a song where there might be no sax solo on the original song.

Some others I do close to the recorded version but with our own twists to it, personalizing it to our desires. For example: We'll put our variations on the melody and/or instead of background vocal call and response, I might play the response on my sax, windsynth or guitar instead.

Yet others I play completely different from the original, and I mean completely. For example: We do Stevie Wonder's "You Are The Sunshine Of My Life" in a Cool School era swing style.

I love to play to an audience. I'd rather play than be in the audience. I always watch and feel the audience, paying attention to what works and what doesn't. It's not about playing for the audience, to me, it's playing with the audience. It's a dialog and they are equal partners.

When I was young, before DJs started playing in clubs, the focus of every band was to play the song as close to the original as possible. There were times when you could play your own solo, and times when you needed the famous solo, and that depended on the song. We learned a lot then, it was like taking lessons from the masters. How did he/she do that? Why did he/she change the phrasing of the melody in the middle chorus? And so on. It was ear training and finger training.

During one of my two trials at being 'normal' and taking a day job, I had a Sunday afternoon in a jazz band. The leader/guitarist played with Ira Sullivan before he became a teacher at the University of Miami in the jazz department. Heavyweight artists would occasionally come sit in with us when they were in town, because they all knew the guitarist. Sometimes I felt like I was in over my head, but I'm good at faking things (I was blessed with good ears) so nobody seemed to notice. It was a fun gig, nothing was done exactly the same way twice, nothing was done like 'the record' although some of the heads were similar (you can't do "Tunisia" without playing the Dizzy/Bird head), but a steady Sunday gig would never-ever pay the mortgage.

So when I quit the day job to go back to full-time music, I went back to what I call covers (exact) and semi-covers (songs done not quite like the original, or not at all like the original).

It's fun to do, it pays the bills, and although some people may call that selling out, to me holding a day job, so I can play jazz one day a week is a bigger sell-out. YMMV

To me there is nothing wrong with playing covers. Remember the New York Philharmonic, The Cleveland Orchestra, The Czech Philharmonic and the London Symphony Orchestra are all cover bands.

Insights and incites by Notes

Most cover bands play "their own adaption" of the song because, in many cases, the musicians in the local cover band are not skilled enough to actually play the licks or even the groove the same as the guys who wrote it originally.

Some of the better bands I was in did that very thing simply because we were too lazy to play it like they recorded it. We called it putting our own sound on it. The audience loved it... or appeared to love it.... hey, that sounds like Sweet Home Alabama..... lets dance...!!!! YEEEEE HAWWWWWW

My only point about any of this is explained pretty well by this analogy.

Years ago, when I still played golf, a friend I learned much from (George) could hit the hell out of a golf ball. I could kinda hang with him off the tee, but my middle game was weak and when he was 7 feet away putting for birdie, I was 12 feet putting for par. The however here is that he rarely made that 7 foot putt for birdie and I rarely missed my 12 foot putt for a par, so we both parred the hole.

He had the tee game (singing) and the long game (playing) but he couldn't putt (writing). I had some tee game (playing) and the putting (writing) but no long game (singing).

The players on the PGA tour have all 3 phases. (Playing instruments, singing, and writing.) And those are the players (and music performers) I admire most, the ones who can do it all. As often as I have said this is just my opinion I keep getting told I am wrong because Sinatra didn't write.

I... Me... Eddie... I respect people more when they have, beyond the performing ability, the ability to tell stories with lyrics. I think I am a pretty decent writer, but my performance game is lacking to the degree that I am a fine cardboard cutout behind a front man but I belong in the back as a support beam to which the shiny chandelier is attached. I have no improv skills at all anymore. I can play what is written, but to point to me and say "take it", nope. My brain wants to start thinking about "What should I play?" and what comes out is a shanked 8 iron shot into the water.

Nowhere in there do I say "If you can't write you are a piece of crap and you should sell your gear and get a job at the gas station selling people slushies and microwave burritos." I NEVER said that. I just respect writers MORE because of the expanded skill set it takes. If you have all three facets of the game, all the better. If not, play to your strengths. The thing to remember is that while (pick an one of them to put in a name) Carrie Underwood doesn't write all of her own stuff, I am thankful that they don't all wrote their own stuff or NO songwriters would sell songs. Sadly with music being so soulless and superficial anymore, heartfelt writing has given way to the formula song of exactly 3:34 in length. SO many writers had that ONE big song and the rest were "also ran". Like I was never a big Kenny Rogers guy, but "She Believes In Me" is the kind of song that gets my attention because it's about having a spouse beside you supporting your dream of becoming a songwriter. Written by Steve Gibb who really didn't do much else. However, it was #1 on Billboard Country, #5 on Hot Singles and #1 on Adult Contemporary, and it charted well for an Irish artist so I am pretty sure Gibb made a nice chunk-o-change on that one!

When I was young, the object of a cover band was to do it exactly like the record, or as close to it as possible. Because music publishing was slow, and there was no Internet, we listened to our vinyl records and learned the parts by ear, note for note.

We worked for the biggest agent in South Florida at the time, and he would say, "Those guys made a million dollars doing it that way. Do you think you could do it any better?"

Even the harmony parts had to be the same.

The most we could get away with was our own solos -- depending on the song. Even then, often we would have to start the solo like the record.

That is the classic definition of a cover band. Of course, times have changed, language has evolved, and the definition of 'cover band' has come to include anyone doing a song that they didn't write. So how do we designate the "just like the record" band from the "similar to the record" and from "inspired by the record" bands if we call them all cover bands?

When jazz artists play their own take on popular songs, are they cover bands?

Eddie, I appreciate your analogy with golfers, but let me put my own in.

There are builders who can build a house, but they depend on architects to draw up the plans, who also depend on structural engineers to make sure the plans will work and be stable.

There are also some very talented songwriters who are not top-notch performers. When someone else does their song, are the cover artists? Barry Mann, one of the prolific Brill Building songwriters, only had one single release. IMO almost anybody who records a song that Bob Dylan wrote sings it better than Dylan can.

While I do appreciate someone who can write a song and do a first-rate recording of the same song, I don't consider that a requirement.

A lot of great songs would have never seen the light of day if only songwriters were allowed to sing them. And that would be sad because there are so many great songs written by people who are not good singers and/or performers.

Notes