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I think this may be the very last post I ever do on this topic, or others related to it. Ha! Yeah sure. 
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For a new user, I would suggest not even bother with it, and start learning BIAB and Plugin. Maybe I am wrong, but I am pretty sure most of new users will not use RB. To be on par with even free Cakewalk, RB needs thousands of hours in programming and testing. You are 100% correct! about the only positive things I can say about RB, besides that it is free... but so is Cakewalk. Remember, it is NOT free! You must buy at least the basic version of BIAB to get it. They don't sell it separately because, as a DAW without RealTracks, it could never compete with modern DAWs. And to be fair, it should not be expected to either! PGM, with limited resources, created it as a free add-on for BIAB. And for that purpose it is fine. But every time someone tries to claim it is as feature-rich, functional and modern as other DAWs it requires that someone call that out as the gross exaggeration that it is. Sorry, not sorry! [/quote]
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I'm kind of with Misha on this one...... except I don't even use the plugin, just BIAB.
I get all the tracks exactly how I want them and export all MIDI/AUDIO to .MID and .WAV files and import into Pro Tools.
The export doesn't take any time and I really enjoy PT as my DAW.
I think it's mostly a matter of DAW comfort.
 Steve BIAB/RB 2022, Pro Tools 2020, Korg N5, JBL LSR 4328 Powered Monitors, AKG/Shure Mics.
PC: Win11 PRO, 4 TB M2 SSD, 2 TB HD, 128 GB Memory
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But Steve,
In this and related posts, people keep circling around and around and making uninformed statements that are simply not true and they are not addressing the real issue, which I have pointed out over and over.
If you are ARRANGING and you WANT MORE THAN FIVE TRACKS, then RealBand is a wonderful tool to select from thousands of instruments that you can place and stack in a visually pleasing environment with bars of only a few measures or so which is what an arrangement often IS. And you can do it and edit it FAST.
NOTHING and I mean NOTHING even comes close for using it for that purpose.
If someone WANTS to use it that way and is ARRANGING why does anyone else care??? Does no one realize what the capabilities are? How could you NOT know??? Is anyone actually USING this product? I have my doubts, sometimes, seriously.
I know there are people who just want to create some Christmas jingle midis in four tracks, but if you want numerous parts and RealBand works great for that, why trash it?
I would love to see a show of hands of people who have acquired a version of Band in a Box in the last 10 years and have mixed a song using Real Tracks in the last five.
That would answer a lot of my questions.
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All.
wow what did i start...lol.
lets keep it friendly and collegial eh ?
i'm with david, i dont want pg to drop rb.
BTW there is a paid version of rb thats included free with biab. its powertraks that i started with many moons ago, and which i still consider one heck of a deal for the features it offers at such a low price. a steal imho.
it just dont have all the accompany features.
.........................................................
David.
i agree with you. rb is a goldmine for genning not just traks but also song ideas.
in this and some following posts i'll delve into little ideas/triks in rb's useage.
(other users can add their own ideas.)
for example lets start off with the fact you dont necessarily need a chord sheet.
you might want to jam up some guitar ideas for example.
but it would be nice to have some nice drums wouldnt it ? to jam with ?
the following took me all of 4 minutes today. just experimenting.
1. i genned a funky real drum trak on one trak from lots of pg rd's available.
then
2. genned a midi trak , and then inserted one of computer music mags vsti drum sample/beat box like drum plug ins. the samples in the plug in reinforcing the funky RD trak to create added synergy.
so now i have 2 traks of drums.
then i was paging thru lots of presets in the cm mags drum plug in to see what i liked best.
any sample player plug in could be used of course. from simple to exotic. eg some of those plug in sample players
mentioned in the long contemporary thread with their data base of modern sounds.
anyhoo i got a funky groove going in 4 mins i could jam to. no chord sheet.
i sometimes do this as a way of nudging song ideas into my brain etc.
ive got more than a few song ideas this way.
i'll add more ideas of things to try in rb as my time allows. overall i would urge people, if not already done so to delve deeply into rb. theres lots of neat stuff/triks.
best
oldmuso.
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 10/07/21 11:42 AM.
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I have been through all this years n years ago. It is good there is a choice Biab Realband BiabVST I have said if RealBand was the only thing there is I would be able to use it. The thing with RealBand you've never had this development RealBand® 2021 - 59 of Your Problems Solved! the main focus has always been Biab.
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David, You just drag audio to you DAW from VST... and it will line up very nicely. Use freehand or snap grid to do whatever you want with it. And it will "feel" and "look" much better than RB. String & anchors for volume / fx faders and gazillion of other DAW specific features that just work much, much better and more intuitively especially with VST loaded 30+ track projects. I think the issue is, you do not realize how fast DAWS evolving compared to RB. If PGmusic had a small army of coders, like Big Boys, I would scream hard to bring it up to current standards. But crew is small and it seems not easy keeping checks on stuff that badly needs to be done. There are plenty of DAW alternatives, but none to BIAB and VST, I rather see team to give more love to the later two. PS. I am not saying "TAKE RB AWAY FROM DAVID!". There is nothing wrong with keeping RB "alive" for those who need it, I just do not see the point of comparing "advantages" to "competitors" and using resources to aggressively develop it. quote: "I would love to see a show of hands of people who have acquired a version of Band in a Box in the last 10 years" That is one strange statement... 10 years is a lot of years when it comes to software. For example, Cakewalk (after Bandlab bought it) put more effort in last 2 years, than it was done through most of time of Gibson ownership. Since you like to type in Caps, I will echo your style. DAVID HAVE YOU HEARD OF UTILITY TRACKS IN BIAB? WHILE THEY ARE NOT PERFECT AT ALL AT THIS STAGE, THEY GIVE FOLKS ADDITIONAL SIXTEEN(!) TRACKS FOR RT'S ON THE TOP OF LEGACY TRACKS. TAKING INTO ACCOUNT OF WHAT OFFICIAL PG TEAMSTER SAID, THEY WILL GAIN MORE RT FUNCTIONS, AND I SINCERELY HOPE THAT SANTA WILL BRING AT LEAST SOME OF THAT GOODNESS TOWARDS THE END OF THIS YEAR 
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If someone WANTS to use it that way and is ARRANGING why does anyone else care??? Does no one realize what the capabilities are? How could you NOT know??? Is anyone actually USING this product? I have my doubts, sometimes, seriously. David, I have no issues whatsoever with people who use and produce great music with RB. Kudos to them! I don't express my opinions on the tool itself very often because I had my 50-100 hours with it and don't like it, very frustrating. Compared to other DAWs it seems like a toy. During the times I have used it, it crashes, usually within 60 minutes of having it open. I have a powerful PC and no issues with the standard audio interfaces I've used in other DAWs. Most of the basic functions it has are not as easy to learn as other DAWs either. I was constantly going back to documentation for the easiest of tasks. For me, the old school BIAB is much better at the arranging part. So what if it's 5 tracks? I can still generate as many as I need in BIAB, it sometimes just takes more than one export to PT to do that, no biggie for me. It's just my preference not to use RB. I would rather use a tool that is easier to use for me.
Steve BIAB/RB 2022, Pro Tools 2020, Korg N5, JBL LSR 4328 Powered Monitors, AKG/Shure Mics.
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Biab now has Utility tracks because users liked staying in Biab because it is quick to change and regenerate, in RealBand and the BiabVST this is more time consuming, with RealBand you have bbw2 running in the background to generate up tracks to RealBand's temp folder, this is the same as BiabVST has bbw4 running in the background working the same way with your DAW.
That is why I'm pressing hard for Instant Generate and Play Direct in the BiabVST,
I don't think users understand what this is all about and what it will mean ! maybe down the track when they are using it and it's common place "oh yes now I see what pipeline was going on about".
If this was done in RealBand in the past with non destructive audio editing, Realband would of been a whole new ball game by now.
As I said what you guys are all talking about now I have been through on both sides of for years n years.
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Pipeline...respect.
please could you clarify one thing up thread for me.
are you saying a user cant do those 59 items currently
in rb that you mentioned up thread ?
all.
maybe its psychological but i find useing the plug in vst in bb i feel hemmed in sometimes. also sometimes i want to do something and the plug in wont let me do it.
for example i like the standalone plug in but it dont have vols and pans.
whereas when i move to rb i dont feel hemmed in and i can do such things as compiling a final trak from a number of
genned takes of an rt . cos ive got 48 traks to experiment in rb and try various arrangement ideas.
i like the flexibility of the large no of traks.
and, even wackier i could mix the 48 down to stereo and reimport into rb and do/gen a ton of further traks.
for example if i wanted to build a huge orchestra all built by genned midi traks plus useing orchestra plug ins. i guess i like the flexibility .
best
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 10/07/21 01:50 PM.
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Through the years I've made various attempts to use RB. I've always found it sluggish and prone to crashing. That makes it a non-starter for me. If it works for you - more power to you!
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Well, guys, I guess I am the odd man out. I LOVE RealBand! I wish they would fix the VST save issue, which is highly annoying, but other than that I love it. I mix in Cakewalk with about 897 VSTs last time I counted but I record in RB, as I said. To each his own it looks like. I can see I am all alone though (except for Muso) so I will let this go!!!!
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Pipeline...respect.
please could you clarify one thing up thread for me.
are you saying a user cant do those 59 items currently
in rb that you mentioned up thread ?
That is a Biab Ad, it just shows the energy going into BB more so than RB.
all.
maybe its psychological but i find useing the plug in vst in bb i feel hemmed in sometimes. also sometimes i want to do something and the plug in wont let me do it.
for example i like the standalone plug in but it dont have vols and pans.
It has Vols now after a huge fight to get them, still trying for Pans !
whereas when i move to rb i dont feel hemmed in and i can do such things as compiling a final trak from a number of
genned takes of an rt . cos ive got 48 traks to experiment in rb and try various arrangement ideas.
i like the flexibility of the large no of traks.
You can add just 3 BiabVST's in RB and get an extra 75 tracks.
and, even wackier i could mix the 48 down to stereo and reimport into rb and do/gen a ton of further traks.
for example if i wanted to build a huge orchestra all built by genned midi traks plus useing orchestra plug ins. i guess i like the flexibility .
The idea behind RB is great !!!, could it be better ? for sure. Say if you moved the generate code into a NEW DAW without using bbw2.exe running in the background so it generates up the tracks instantly playing them as DAW's do direct from the original files non destructivly, wouldn't that be better ?
I can generate up the RealDrums from reading their txt files straight into Reaper, if I went through all the RealTracks and chorded them out I could do the same with them, but I shouldn't have to do that cause that's why I pushing for the Instant Gen Play Direct !!!!!!
best
om
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This is destructive editing and non destructive editing: Full Screen 
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Well, JAOM,
You may see that I'm not on my Pat Malone in my interpretation of your intention.
There's no brouhaha and, for my part, no interest in advancing the matter into one.
The title of the thread is "ADVANTAGES OF REALBAND OVER PG's COMPETITION."
Reread and reflect on your posts and responses - I've done so with mine. No gripe or grievance - I offered a response to your O.P. based on the thread title and, later, to your thoughts on mine. You like it, I don't. You want more and I'm can see how & why PG continue with it. No opposition, I've barely a position.
David's been sparked into a justification of his workflow and a challenge to others that is, honestly, pointless in terms of their workflow and the high likelihood no one in the thread wants to spend the time doing so.
Good on you for using RB to do what you do David. I sincerely suggest you make a video, not unlike Floyd's Birth of a Song, showing the Snyder method and its advantages for those interested/new/keen on seeing details of your process based on their listening. You've plenty of admirers so I'd venture that it'd be worthwhile.
From my perspective it's a solid piece of legacy software that isn't as buggy as the main program, (largely becasue it's not perpetually being updated without being fully upgraded). Let's face it, if PG Music REALLY thought there was value in ramping up interest in RB they'd have done it/be doing it.
Perhaps a super thread with lots of "stickies" - "RealBand for Newbies" or "Taking BIAB to the Next Level with Ultra Compatible RB".
Some folk like RD and other don't.
Some folk have spent time with RB and like it or don't while others haven't found it sufficiently interesting to delve deeper into to find out.
Hey, I actually LIKE, & regularly drink, instant coffee.
Last edited by rayc; 10/07/21 08:30 PM.
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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Rayc.
thanks for your comments mate.
Pipeline.
thanks for the reply/clarifications. thats a very neat trick for expanding trak count by useing bb as a plug in. i hope some new users see that idea. great idea.
re destructive/non. if i'm gonna do a hard change on a trak, what i do sometimes if a critical trak is save a back up before i changed it. i save to *.seq often also anyways.
i'm back up crazy. lol. nice graphics btw.
All.
lets consider another way of working //more ideas.
my objective in this thread is to show that with rb actually one can do some really neat things.
ie focusing on the positive aspects of rb.
(but my time is limited as i'm creating songs too. so i apologise if i dont get back to it to post more ideas//triks for a day or so sometimes.
perhaps , if some would be good enough... instead of posting in general terms that you dont like rb , start your own thread on neat things you do with your gear.)
the first objective imho when i'm starting a song is getting the arrange right.
but i suspect some people go all gung ho on genning realtraks right off the bat. its just human nature.
or go to n from biab //importing bb chord sheet into rb // changeing the chord sheet and genning audio rt's.
so those waveform draws get a tad tedious after a bit while one is still sorting out chord arrangements etc.
particularly if genning a number of rt's at a time as i said earlier.
so heres another suggestion. stay all midi in rb till the chord arrange is down and finalised.
and your certain its a keeper. try starting off the chord sheet in rb like i did other day.
the other day i found i worked very fast this way in rb.
for me the arrange and trying different chord shapes etc etc takes a time anyways.
i'm typically playing back the rb chord sheet , jotting down more lyric ideas , and singing along with it, and altering chords and lyrics etc, and trying to find progressions that i like //progression hooks etc.
(you know those hooky chord structures we search for to make a song interesting. where we go "yeah".)
the advantage is, on my pc anyway , i right clik over a blank trak in rb and the midi trak gen is instantaneous
compared to a audio gen from a real trak that takes a few secs/waveform draw.
i REALLY LIKE the right clik over trak in rb for genning traks, cos i can work fast trying different chord arrangements etc etc. like tother day.
in summary i start a song chord sheet sometimes in rb flushing out and finalising the chord arrange, all the time right cliking over traks to gen midi traks. i cant emphasise enough how much i like the right clik over
a trak to gen. it lets me work very fast compared to other approaches. and ive got SO MANY TRAKS i dont feel hemmed in like when i'm useing the vst plug in version. but maybe i'm silly...lol.
more next time.
best
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 10/08/21 12:56 AM.
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Well, guys, I guess I am the odd man out. I LOVE RealBand! I wish they would fix the VST save issue, which is highly annoying, but other than that I love it. I mix in Cakewalk with about 897 VSTs last time I counted but I record in RB, as I said. To each his own it looks like. I can see I am all alone though (except for Muso) so I will let this go!!!! Not at all David. Listen to this example of an original production mostly 'arranged' with RealBand from a few ago. Like you, this BIAB artist (Joesarahh) loves RB and understands the advantages it has over its competition... The Young British Soldier Forum Post
BIAB Ultra Pak+ 2024:RB 2024, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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Charlie.
kudos for linking to that.
only 4 words for it. (i was born in uk)
SUPERB PRODUCTION AND VOCS.
lovely.
best
om
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Great example, Charlie. This is an ARRANGEMENT. Sorry for all caps, but that is what Real Band does. It helps you instantly and visually ARRANGE. Loved how he did this. Thanks for sharing. I wish more of the forum posts, threads and discussions talked about and shared COMPOSITIONAL secrets and tips from active users of all the products, RealBand, BIAB, VST, whatever. As a metaphor, I have a LOT of instruments but I don't play the same one every time. That would be stupid. RealBand is one such instrument. To me, an overwhelming number of posts go on like, "I have 21 Tigabytes of RAM now in Windows 15, running a super-quad, water-cooled, AMD flexchip with the latest installation of Imitation Guitar Box 12." Cool. And stuff. But a typical great song is usually a stack of very carefully chosen tracks, meticulously arranged bar by bar. Any tips on how to do that better?????? Hello, hello?? Anybody home???
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........................... I wish more of the forum posts, threads and discussions talked about and shared COMPOSITIONAL secrets and tips from active users of all the products, RealBand, BIAB, VST, whatever. ...................... But a typical great song is usually a stack of very carefully chosen tracks, meticulously arranged bar by bar. Any tips on how to do that better?????? Hello, hello?? Anybody home??? David, a compositional tips is a great idea for a new forum. Post it in the wishlist forum and you will get a +1 from me. PS - Discussing what is the best DAW is like discussing what is the best car. Everyone has their own opinion. Either you agree with them or you do not. IMHO the best DAW is the one you use regardless of the brand name. YMMV
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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