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I want to transpose a BiaB song to another key by using the transpose button below the tempo button. When I do so, I get this pop up
"RealTracks on Soloist or Melody track are audio, so do not transpose. OK to erase the Realtrack?" Yes/No/Cancel
Since I don't want to permenently erase any RealTracks I said Cancel. "Erase" meaning I will not be able to use that RealTrack ever again.
Can someone explain why RealTracks get erased when you try to transpose and how I can transpose without having Realtracks erased?
Many thanks.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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RealTracks are made up from previously recorded audio passages (recorded by real musicians, in a specific key).
If you want to change that key (pitch of the notes), then a new RealTrack is required. BiaB will create this for you when you next press Play (or Generate/Play). So the existing audio at one pitch is replaced by new audio at a different pitch according the the amount you have transposed the song.
In this context, "Erase" means that the existing audio will be removed and replaced with new audio when you generate.
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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Hmmm, thanks for this info. So the RealTrack won't actually be erased but rather it will be replaced by a transposed version of it.
And if this is done multiple times (over days, months or years) will small transposing errors creep in and accumulate much like making a Xerox copy and then copying the copy etc will eventually produce a distorted image?
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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Hmmm, thanks for this info. So the RealTrack won't actually be erased but rather it will be replaced by a transposed version of it.
And if this is done multiple times (over days, months or years) will small transposing errors creep in and accumulate much like making a Xerox copy and then copying the copy etc will eventually produce a distorted image? No. The RealTrack is actually created from the Chords that your song uses. Generating the chords on the track results in creation of audio output. If you transpose, then that previous audio is replaced with new audio created from the new chords. Whenever you generate, you get brand new audio, not a modified version of the previous audio. (There are other changes that can occur e.g. if you change the tempo by more than a small amount. This can introduce artifacts, a little like your comparison to photocopies of photocopies. But that is separate to transposing and regenerating)
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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I'm sure there is lot's of internal processing that takes place when a transpose is initiated and that the engineers would have taken steps to maintain the integrity and quality of these RealTracks so that they can be used again in the future in their original state. At least, that's how I would have approached such a software project. In other words, why would they allow users to permenantly alter and distort these valuable RealTracks?
Having thought about this more I suspect there are "local" copies versus "global" copies of RealTracks. "Local" in that they reside inside the particular song you're working on versus "global" where they remain pristine and untouched, or something similar to this. If this is not the case, then everyone that has ever transposed a RealTrack would have a copy of the software different from what was shipped to them and one would hope that the original RealTracks could be recovered from something like a factory reset.
"If you transpose, then that previous audio [residing in your local song] is replaced with new audio created from the new chords [that have been transposed]. The original RealTrack remains unaltered and can be used in future songs in their original key without distortion."
Is the above an accurate way of thinking about this?
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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..."If you transpose, then that previous audio [residing in your local song] is replaced with new audio created from the new chords [that have been transposed]. The original RealTrack remains unaltered and can be used in future songs in their original key without distortion."
Is the above an accurate way of thinking about this?
Yes, that's correct. The original RealTrack music passages are only ever copied to create your song audio.
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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Is the above an accurate way of thinking about this? Think of BIAB as a printing press. The slugs are chunks of audio in boxes of permanent, read-only files. These chunks get arranged in a particular way on a particular occasion and struck to print a track that follows your chord chart. The problem you are running into with talking about this stuff is the unfortunate ambiguity between "RealTracks" as the things you buy when you buy BIAB (the boxes of slugs) and "RealTracks" as the things you create in your songs.
Last edited by Mark Hayes; 01/29/22 03:19 PM.
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AudioTrack and Mark thanks for the dialog.
This is making a lot more sense now. No matter what the software domain, transportation, medical devices, communication, audio, etc, there are certain software engineering principles and practices that make good user and good business sense. It just took me a little time to think my way thru this.
What sent for a loop (full circle back) was the pop up message that confused me.
"RealTracks on soloist or Melody track are audio [OK, I know that], so do not transpose [why?]. Ok to erase the RealTrack?"
Mark, I like your "Chunks of audio, printing press and read-only files" descriptions. The folks that were recorded on these tracks are world-class musicians, why would an amateur like me be allowed to mess-up their originals by transposing them?
It's the word "erase" that really stopped me in my tracks and the command to not transpose.
As a new user and based on our brief discussion here's how I would have constructed this pop up (if a pop up is needed at all).
"There are local Soloist or Melody RealTracks in your song. You are about to transpose these to a different key. Only these local copies of RealTracks will be transposed. The original, global RealTracks will not be transposed or altered in any way."
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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"There are local Soloist or Melody RealTracks in your song. You are about to transpose these to a different key. Only these local copies of RealTracks will be transposed. The original, global RealTracks will not be transposed or altered in any way." But that isn't right. What you're transposing isn't a local copy of a global RealTrack, it's your own generated thing, assembled as a track from copies of pieces of RealTracks. I know you know what you're saying, though. The language is such a pain here.
Last edited by Mark Hayes; 01/29/22 04:31 PM.
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OK, I thought I had it but I guess I'm still not quite there.
Mark, can you articulate what the pop up should say?
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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OK, I thought I had it but I guess I'm still not quite there.
Mark, can you articulate what the pop up should say? What is really needed, I think, is a term for those entities you create when you generate a song, thereby assembling chunks of RealTrack audio into tracks in your song. The obvious term would be "user tracks" but of course Marketing got their hands on that and it means something else (UserTracks), so who knows what to call them. Say we call them "PersonalTracks", and I am gagging as I type that but bear with me! All I think the message needs to say is that you are about to erase your PersonalTracks (gag). No need to say anything about RealTracks at all, users should think of them as read-only resources that they cannot change. So, I guess something like: "PersonalTrack soloist track is audio, which does not transpose. Ok to erase?"
Or, now that I think about it, why not just – "Soloist track is audio, which does not transpose. Ok to erase?"
Last edited by Mark Hayes; 01/29/22 05:57 PM.
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I'm seeing that this is a bit more involved than I first thought . . . nomenclature invention, gagging and the like  For what it's worth, I'm just trying to a) understand how to properly interpret that pop up message so that I don't inadvertently cause damage to my RealTracks (which I thought I was about to do) and b) to help eliminate any confusion with that pop up in future versions should the programmers be reading this thread. [I'm assuming you are not on the development team.] I think what I'm learning here is that I was wrong about local and global RealTracks. You seem to be saying there are only RealTracks and when you do a transpose, in effect, your entire song is transposed. The "global/original" RealTrack was never transposed or altered and will be available to use again in its original state in future songs you create. OK, no worries. I'm wondering why there needs to be a pop up at all. You want to transpose a song from C to D? Pull down the menu and transpose . . . easy peasy and all is well. Based on this, I don't see anything other than the starting version in the key of C being "erased". And it's not even really "erased" because can't you recover or "unerase" it by transposing from D back to C if you want?
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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OK, no worries. I'm wondering why there needs to be a pop up at all. Well, there's the "cannot transpose audio" issue. But cannot damage your BIAB installation by doing anything to your own tracks, even though you are led to fear that possibility because of the confusing use of the flashy term "RealTrack" to mean two completely different things. Sorry, this is a "pet peeve" of mine, marketing-driven terminology that obscures technical function.
Last edited by Mark Hayes; 01/29/22 07:22 PM.
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Thanks Mark,
This has been an enjoyable and enlightening dialog. You have removed my central fear of somehow altering/erasing pieces of my installation when transposing a song to a different key; despite what the pop up message says. It took a bit of thrashing around to get there but there's nothing wrong with a bit of thrashing to come to grips with an important concept associated with a large and complex piece of software.
Of course, behind my concern on this issue was the realization that the RealTracks involved (in my song if that's the correct term) is that if the RealTrack was altered, I may not even realize it until days or weeks later when going back to that same RealTrack. By that time, what we are now discussing would probably be a dim memory and what a challenge it would then be to unpack the mess of having a RealTrack play in a key different from the song it's a part of. Thankfully, everyone's RealTracks are protected. My instincts eventually told me this but hearing it from an expert certainly "greased those skids".
--Steve
PS. Nothing wrong with pet peaves, it shows you are capable of independent thought and are aware of best practices. And for what it's worth, we are totally on the same page. As important as the Marketing department is, I agree that it should follow the Software/Music Engineering dept. A common saying we would use to describe this in industry is "the dog wags the tail, the tail doesn't wag the dog". In this case, the "dog" (the engineering) is innovative and elegant. Everything else should follow behind and be "wagged".
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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My instincts eventually told me this but hearing it from an expert certainly "greased those skids" Yikes. No no no, no expert am I, all that "title" means is I have posted many times without having my account deleted. I do believe what I have said here is accurate, though.
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all that "title" means is I have posted many times without having my account deleted That made me giggle ..
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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