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#726101 - 07/30/22 05:25 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: Bass Thumper]
Registered: 10/09/16
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edshaw Offline
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The circle and the chart are helpful. Another important concept is what's called "the scale pattern," or, the "intervals" of the scale. Major, minor, pentatonic -- each octave has a specific pattern of intervals.

A full step interval is two semitones. For example, C to D in the C Maj scale is a full step (two frets.) A half-step interval is one semi-tone, (one fret) e.g. E to F or B to C. There are no E# nor is there a B# in the C Major scale. -------------

Full step: C (the one) up two frets to (the two) D.

-------------------- C Major Scale: ----------------

C (root) - D (full step up) - E (full step from D) - F (half step) --
G (full step) -- A (full step) -- B (full step) - C (half step)

------------------------------------------------------

Apply the same principles to all 12 keys of the major scale.

Root (First degree of the scale, names the key. Step pattern:

Root - whole - whole - half - whole - whole - whole - half

--------------------------

Thanks for catching those mistakes, Dave Snyder. I hope I made the corrections. Apologies to all.


Edited by edshaw (08/01/22 06:33 AM)
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#726148 - 07/31/22 09:17 AM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: edshaw]
Registered: 06/11/20
Posts: 319
Bass Thumper Offline
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Originally Posted By: edshaw
The circle and the chart are helpful. Another important concept is what's called "the scale pattern," or, the "intervals" of the scale.
Major, minor, pentatonic -- each octave has a specific pattern of intervals.

A full step interval is two semitones. For example, C to D in the C Maj scale is a full step. A half-step interval is one semi-tone, e.g. E to F or B to C. There are no E# nor is there a B# in the C Major scale. -------------

Full step: C (the one) - C# (the two) - (the three) D.

C (root) - D (full step up) - E (full step from D) - F (half step) --
G (full step) -- A (full step) -- B (full step) - C (half step) --

Apply the same principles to all 12 keys of the major scale.

Thanks Ed, I think I understand full-step/half step and that from C to D we have full(2 frets) and from E to F we have half (1 fret).

Gracie Terzian seems to use "scale" and "key" interchangably. Are they the same? If we look at the table I posted on 7/29 (I'm assuming you didn't detect any errors in it) and look at the scale/key of E Major, we see the following notes.

E-F#-G#-A-B-C#-D# we see it's root is located at clock position 4 on the circle and we have 4 sharps. (I'm thinking these 4's are unrelated since at clock position 11, F we, certainly can't have 11 sharps or 11 flats). If I play these notes on my keyboard and end with the higher octave E , I hear the familiar Do-Re-Mi musical sequence.

I also notice in this table that for all keys/scales the 1,4 and 5 scale numbers correspond to "major chords". Do you know what that is telling me or what the significance of that is?

Also, this table is restricted to major keys. Is there a separate table restricted to minor keys? If so, would the next inner circle dictate these keys/scales?
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#726150 - 07/31/22 10:28 AM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: Bass Thumper]
Registered: 01/15/15
Posts: 907
Loc: Hampshire, UK
Gordon Scott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bass Thumper
Gracie Terzian seems to use "scale" and "key" interchangably. Are they the same?
Not quite, but probably close enough for the moment. A song is in a key and that key, by default, uses the notes from the scale, however there are other scales that could also be used with that key. A prominent example is that all major keys have a "relative minor key", that uses exactly the same notes. But also, a player could also use the blues scale over the key and the blues scale includes note that are not in the key. Be aware of it but don't get hung up on it. Each major's relative minor starts exactly 3 semitones below the root of the major. The key signature is exactly the same. A fairly reliable check of whether a song is in major or relative minor it to look at the final chord from the song. Usually(!) that will be the key.

Originally Posted By: Bass Thumper
E-F#-G#-A-B-C#-D# we see it's root is located at clock position 4 on the circle and we have 4 sharps. (I'm thinking these 4's are unrelated since at clock position 11, F we, certainly can't have 11 sharps or 11 flats).

They are related, but we stop the sharps and flats at 7 as that's all we can have in an octave.. on a piano, that's the five black keys plus the 'odd' B#/Cb and E#/Fb.

Originally Posted By: Bass Thumper

I also notice in this table that for all keys/scales the 1,4 and 5 scale numbers correspond to "major chords". Do you know what that is telling me or what the significance of that is?

It's just how a major scale is defined.
Don't worry about the following for now, but at some stage it may well become of interest ... there are also "modes" aka "church modes", which use exactly the same notes as the major scale, but each mode starts on a different note from the scale. They're a powerful concept, but will likely give you a headache if you try to understand them now.

Originally Posted By: Bass Thumper
Also, this table is restricted to major keys. Is there a separate table restricted to minor keys? If so, would the next inner circle dictate these keys/scales?

The key we normally know as minor is the relative minor. It's the most common of the modes I mention above. There are many scales and they have sometimes remarkably different characters. Again, don't worry about them now.
The one other scale that is probably well worth knowing is "the blues scale". It's fairly common, it's fairly easy to get to grips with and it has that nice blues feel.
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#726152 - 07/31/22 10:57 AM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: Gordon Scott]
Registered: 06/11/20
Posts: 319
Bass Thumper Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gordon Scott

Don't worry about the following for now, but at some stage it may well become of interest ...

Thanks for understanding where I'm currently at in the subject (baby step #1) smile .
But I can say that my journey has begun . . .
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#726219 - 08/01/22 06:09 AM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: Bass Thumper]
Registered: 10/09/16
Posts: 1456
Loc: Central Ohio
edshaw Offline
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I'm reminded of an old story, Bass Thumper, about the jazz great who was asked if he had taken lessons to read music. "Yes, he said, but not enough to hurt my playing."

Incidentally, I screen shot that table & gave copies to a musician Sunday who had inquired about the 1-4-5 progression, specifically in regards to adapting to the variety of keys. ( I deleted the Db , Gb, Cb, for simplicity sake.) So, thanks for that.
And, yeah, the minor scales require a "Minor Keys" chart. The quick rule of turning a major into a minor chord is to flat the three of the major chord.
In other words, if D Major chord is D-F#-A, the D Minor chord is D-F-A. The one three five refers to chords; meaning, the first, third, and fifth degree of the scale (D-E-F#-G-A-C-B-C#-D) as opposed to the chord progression such as 1-4-5, or D-G-A.

Incidentally, a good place to start is to learn the 1-3-5's of each note in the 12 note scale. Commit to memory and you'll know the 12 major chords, including some you'll see little of.

Chord progression is something that has developed as composers sought to create a framework for the listeners. This is apparent to those who have studied the hymnals of previous centuries. We find the system is based on relative emotional triggering. Cmaj as a root chord has this driving sort of congregational feel to it. Yet, play that same Cmaj in a compostion in which the C note is the 5th; namely the key of F, and it takes on the quality of tension, urging a return to the root. Here again, the rules are general. Then there is the theory of harmony.

https://www.howmusicreallyworks.com/Pages_Chapter_6/6_17.html

Thanks to each participating. We never stop learning !


PS: David caught a big mistake in my previous comment. I hope I corrected it. Thanks, David!







Edited by edshaw (08/01/22 06:32 AM)
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#726272 - 08/01/22 02:27 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: edshaw]
Registered: 08/29/14
Posts: 6386
Loc: North Carolina
David Snyder Offline
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Yes I pointed out that Ed had said:


"Hey everybody, if it helps, the notes of the C Major scale are 7, Pineapple, 24, Bb, Tomato, 12, and Gravy."

I didn't think that was correct.

smile

Kidding!!!!!!! But not 100% kidding..........

cry

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#726288 - 08/01/22 03:52 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: David Snyder]
Registered: 06/11/20
Posts: 319
Bass Thumper Offline
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Registered: 06/11/20
Posts: 319
Originally Posted By: David Snyder

"Hey everybody, if it helps, the notes of the C Major scale are 7, Pineapple, 24, Bb, Tomato, 12, and Gravy."

A pineapple, tomato and gravy sandwich? I can C major problems ordering this at your local Subway shop 24 7. Especially when they close at 12 midnight.

But then again, life would Bb without music crazy


Edited by Bass Thumper (08/01/22 03:53 PM)
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#726290 - 08/01/22 05:40 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: Bass Thumper]
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 23659
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Offline
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You all know about colors to pitches, yes? Red yellow white is C D E for example. It has odd applications to music. Some folks with perfect pitch claim to be able to associate pitches with color. A few composers in history have used this color association for the right mood.
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#726291 - 08/01/22 06:21 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: Bass Thumper]
Registered: 08/29/14
Posts: 6386
Loc: North Carolina
David Snyder Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bass Thumper
[quote=David Snyder]

A pineapple, tomato and gravy sandwich? I can C major problems ordering this at your local Subway shop 24 7. Especially when they close at 12 midnight.

But then again, life would Bb without music crazy


Perhaps the wittiest comeback I have ever read on this forum, hands down.

Congrats, sir. You win.

smirk

BUT, I will not be defeated! I will brandish arms with you again, good fellow and next time I will be victorious!!!!!!!

But you own the field for now.

Well played.


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#726310 - 08/02/22 03:49 AM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: Bass Thumper]
Registered: 12/20/16
Posts: 1131
Loc: Gold Coast, Queensland, Austra...
Teunis Offline
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Registered: 12/20/16
Posts: 1131
Loc: Gold Coast, Queensland, Austra...
Now here is an interesting “interactive” Circle of 5ths which may help some folk learn what at first seems like a complex subject. The subject remains complex I guess but this site makes a fair bit of sense.

https://www.randscullard.com/CircleOfFifths/

Just hoping to make things easier

Tony


Edited by Teunis (08/02/22 03:52 AM)
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#726315 - 08/02/22 05:30 AM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: Matt Finley]
Registered: 06/11/20
Posts: 319
Bass Thumper Offline
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Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
Some folks with perfect pitch claim to be able to associate pitches with color.

I had not heard about this condition, my pitch is approximately plus or minus 1 semitone frown
Could this be why I never detected a problem with A Long and Winding Road ?


Edited by Bass Thumper (08/02/22 06:03 AM)
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#726317 - 08/02/22 05:37 AM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: David Snyder]
Registered: 06/11/20
Posts: 319
Bass Thumper Offline
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Originally Posted By: David Snyder
I will brandish arms with you again, good fellow and next time I will be victorious!!!!!!!

Mine dear fellow, 'i regards to the challenge thou propose i might not but take adequate time to reflect and ponder forthrightly thy crave. That we both be gentlemen of the high regard, we might not but take upon such activities not with frivoulous forswear and disregard yet with deep consultations and adhearance to the moral thresholds that such men aspire. Not least of what be the import for the fair maidens amonst us that might not but be shielded from all manner of ungentlemanly discourse. If such challenge be accepted it shall be uncovered that henceforth mine honor hath yet be tarnished.

Most evident it is that thou hast experience 'i such contests. Yet moe than experience be required to win victorious 'i the heat of the broil. Therfore and 'i the spirit of honor and kindness, i shall prevail to offer an gentle 'scape from certain defeat should'st thou be inclined to accept such exuent.

Most sincerely and 'i humble office,
lord bassthumber of the tudor estate
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For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the melody world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.

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#726350 - 08/02/22 10:29 AM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: Gordon Scott]
Registered: 06/11/20
Posts: 319
Bass Thumper Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gordon Scott
Generally, the books are good. Lot's of people say "I'm not a dummy, I won't buy it".
They're not for dummies. They're for people of all abilities.

My Music Theory for [Non] Dummies, 4th edition by Michael Pilhofer, MM?, and Holly Day arrived from Amazon, US$16.89

The first thing I did was grab my roll of masking tape and Sharpie marker and replaced "Dummies" with "Newbies". [Sometimes in life one must control the narrative] smile

The 2nd thing I did was my usual new book aroma test. Nothing like the smell of a brand new book; it passed.

The 3rd thing was to check the Table of Contents
Introduction
Part 1: Getting Started with Music Theory
Part 2: Putting Notes Together
Part 3: Musical Expressions through tempo and Dynamics
Part 4: Musical Expression Through Form
Part 5: The Part of Tens
Part 6: Appendicies

The 4th thing I did was read the Introduction. Some notable info:
1. Even the most basic music theory training gives you the information you need to expand your range and abilities as a musician.
2. This book is written for the following types of musicians (which, frankly, cover the gamut)
>> The absoulte beginner
>> The music student who drifted away
>> The experienced performer

The 5th thing I did was to check if it has an index, yep it does. And several pages show up under "Circle of Fifths" in the index.

There is also a link to online material containing chord progressions and other stuff.

So far I like it . . .
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#726609 - 08/04/22 09:44 AM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: edshaw]
Registered: 06/11/20
Posts: 319
Bass Thumper Offline
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Originally Posted By: edshaw
Incidentally, I screen shot that table & gave copies to a musician Sunday who had inquired about the 1-4-5 progression, specifically in regards to adapting to the variety of keys. ( I deleted the Db , Gb, Cb, for simplicity sake.) So, thanks for that.

Glad that the major key table was worthy of sharing. I haven't been able to find such a table that links the keys to the clock position on the circle of 5ths . . so I built one.

Here is my crack at the same table for the minor keys. I have "?" for the chord designations because I don't yet know if they are different from that of the major keys. Please let me know if you spot any errors.


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Edited by Bass Thumper (08/05/22 04:36 PM)
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#726757 - 08/05/22 04:14 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: Bass Thumper]
Registered: 10/09/16
Posts: 1456
Loc: Central Ohio
edshaw Offline
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Awesome job, Bass Thumper. It occurred to me how helpful this would be, but I was self conscious about bringing it up. Now, you went and made the chart! These two charts replace dozens of little disassociated diagrams. The piano player I gave your Major Scale chart to made copies for the worship team. She was excited about having it!

Somewhere along the way I learned the triads and their inversions on guitar. It was a surprising fast study that paid immediate dividends.
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#726762 - 08/05/22 04:42 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: edshaw]
Registered: 06/11/20
Posts: 319
Bass Thumper Offline
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Originally Posted By: edshaw
Awesome job, Bass Thumper. It occurred to me how helpful this would be, but I was self conscious about bringing it up. Now, you went and made the chart!

Hey Ed, thanks for kind words.
This sort of thing helps cement the material in my own head and I've recieved so much from others at this forum so why not share the little I have?

I'm sure there are other chunks of music theory info out there that needs to be consolidated or presented in a way that connects dots. Let me know if you become aware of any.

Also, I edited the above table to show the "m" after the chord names to distinguish them more clearly from the major keys.
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#726767 - 08/05/22 05:09 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: Bass Thumper]
Registered: 10/09/16
Posts: 1456
Loc: Central Ohio
edshaw Offline
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Good show, Bass Thumper.
I changed the title to Minor Scales and added footnotes
on Minor Scale intervals: root, whole, half, whole, whole, half, whole. and a note to how to write the minor scale that is, flat the 3, 6, and 7. Also, turn a major chord to a minor by flat the 3rd degree. D-F#-A becomes D-F-A etc.

I don't know how to add a .jpg to the comment.


Edited by edshaw (08/06/22 07:21 AM)
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#727127 - Today at 09:02 AM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: edshaw]
Registered: 06/11/20
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Bass Thumper Offline
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In working on my next song I stumbled upon a pair of chords that are very pleasing to me and that I think I've heard in songs over the years. It's Asus(A-D-E, 1-4-5, tension) followed by A (A-C#-E, 1-3-5, release).

If you type Asus into bars 1, 2 and 3 and A in bar 4, you'll hear a subtle but pleasing resolution happen.

My question is, can I do anything as a bass player to support/enhance this tension and release or is that the job of the other instruments like piano or guitar? I'm thinking my presense on the root is what's important to maintain a consistent firm footing for the band. If this is correct, is there anything in BiaB I can do to enhance this effect?

Does the Circle of 5ths have any bearing on what's going on here?

My "Newbies" book may address some of this at some point but I've only made it to chapter 4.
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#727134 - Today at 09:56 AM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: Bass Thumper]
Registered: 12/27/03
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MarioD Online   content
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There are no rules set in stone when it relates to music!

There are a number of things I would do to enhance the sus to major chord transition. For example I might play a D note for the first three measures then a C# to A in the fourth measure. Or an A for the first two measures, a D for the third and a C# in the fourth. Or A for the first two measures, an A to D in the third and again a C# to A in the fourth. It also depends on what the other musicians and the lead(s) are playing. It also depends if you want or need to enhance the transition. You are not limited to playing the tonic on the bass for every chord.

Just play around and see what is best for you. YMMV
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#727155 - Today at 01:31 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: MarioD]
Registered: 06/11/20
Posts: 319
Bass Thumper Offline
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Posts: 319
Thanks Mario, you're right, I don't necessarily need to be constrained to the root or 5th in order to support the flow.

For grins I built a snippet that runs 4 cycles of Asus, Asus, Asus, A; followed by 4 cycles of Bsus, Bsus, Bsus, B and then 4 cycles of the Asus phrase again. I added sax just to liven it up a bit.

For each of the sus chords I'm playing the 1-4-5 but on the non-sus chords I'm doing 3 beats of the 3rd (3 beats so that it's easily heard). For A it's a C# and for B it's a D#. And it works. This is definately supporting the tension-release.

You can learn a lot just by playing in the sandbox and I think I'm slowly learning how music works.
One "rule" for bass players might be when in doubt, break apart the chord and try the 3rd.
Good stuff !! smile

Asus Bsus Asus
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Read what Sound-Guy (Dennis) has to say about Band-in-a-Box® 2022 with their latest review, Review: Band-in-a-Box 2022.

"Band in a Box continues to evolve as an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to compose, arrange and mix songs."
-Dennis J Wilkins

Band-in-a-Box® 2022 for Windows is eXtra Ready!

We've made Band-in-a-Box® 2022 for Windows eXtra Ready!

Thinking of adding the new XPro Styles PAK 3 and Xtra Styles PAK 13 to your Band-in-a-Box 2022 for Windows? Download the latest program update, which adds support for these new Add-ons!

Oh, and the XPro Styles PAKs and Xtra Styles PAKs are ON SALE until July 31st... save up to 40%!

Learn more, listen to demos, and purchase:
XPro Styles PAKs
Xtra Styles PAKs

Band-in-a-Box® 2022 for Mac - Special EXTENDED to July 31st!

Great news! We've extended our Band-in-a-Box® 2022 for Mac special until July 31st!

Order during our special and save up to 50% on Band-in-a-Box® 2022 for Mac upgrades and receive a FREE Bonus PAK!

Purchase your copy of Band-in-a-Box® 2022 during our special and add over 50 new features and a FREE Bonus PAK! We've packed our Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK with some amazing Add-ons! The Free Bonus PAK is automatically included with most Band-in-a-Box® for Mac 2022 packages, but for more even more Add-ons (including 60 Bonus RealTracks, MIDI SuperTracks Set 35: All Guitar, Instrumental Studies Set 17: Classic Country Guitar Soloing, Artist Performance Set 12: Songs with Vocal Volume 2, RealDrums Stems Set 2, and Look Ma! More MIDI 8) upgrade it to the 2022 49-PAK for only $49. You can see the full lists of items in these packages, and listen to demos here.

Check out our Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available. Need help deciding? Let us know - we're here to help!

How to: Connect a MIDI Keyboard and Change Patches in Band-in-a-Box® for Mac

Our team has put together a video that covers how to connect a MIDI keyboard to Band-in-a-Box, record, and change MIDI patches.

Video: Band-in-a-Box® for Mac: How to connect a MIDI keyboard and change patches

Want to see a quick video tutorial that's not on our Tips & Tricks list? You can post your request to our I want a video that shows me how to .... forum.

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