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#758416 - 03/19/23 04:40 AM
[Songwriting]
Re: Do you copyright your songs before showing it to producers?
[Re: Henry Clarke]
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Registered: 04/24/17
Posts: 957
Loc: Sillie Con Valley, California
Expert
Registered: 04/24/17
Posts: 957
Loc: Sillie Con Valley, California
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Ray Parker Junior (Ghostbusters) said in a documentary "hell you know you got a hit when you get sued !! LOL" What he meant was that you can take almost any song and within the 7 notes probably come up with a similar song. As far as the question asked in this post I don't bother copyrighting my songs before showing it to producers. Hell, it's hard enough to get someone to listen to them. I definitely ain't worrying about someone stealing them. The songs I release are published through Tunecore Publishing and I am also a BMI member. If that's not enough protection then I'm out of luck. Plus if I wanted to go after someone for "stealing" my song I probably would need a load of cash in attorney's fees to even get close and if that person is connected to a major record company I'm pretty much out of luck. I would hope that if someone felt the need to "steal" my song they will come back to me for other songs and maybe I'd get some kind of deal. But as far as going the Government route and Copyrighting my songs I never bother. So, you trust a Russian company to protect your songs? You shouldn’t because they don’t. In their own words. TuneCore and Copyright Does TuneCore copyright my songs? The following information is regarding TuneCore's Publishing Administration service No, TuneCore does not register songs with the Copyright Office. According to copyright law, the composer owns the copyright to a composition as soon as it is fixed in a tangible medium (written down or recorded) Pursuant to the US copyright act, once a work is in a fixed form i.e. recorded to mp3 or CD, or written down, you are protected under copyright laws. However, registering your copyright with the Library of Congress makes this ownership part of the public record. This formal record affords the composer/author additional benefits. In other words, if a work is registered with the copyright office the author/composer has a stronger claim against infringements and better damage compensation as a result of infringement. You may complete the registration process online at https://www.copyright.gov/registration/ The PA form (Work of the Performing Arts) is the form used to register a composition (lyrics and music) The SR form (Sound Recording) is the form used to register the master or audio/sound recording only Let’s be very clear: Tunecore may be distributing your songs and collecting certain royalties on your behalf but they are clear that You are the Publisher, not they. BMI does not protect you either and they don’t claim to. Again, none of this matters if no one rips you off by a) claiming your work as theirs or b) covering your work without paying you. Do what you want how you like — no one is stopping you. Offering this nonsense as advice to others is stupid.
_________________________
BIAB 2022 Audiophile, 18 Core iMac Pro/4TB/128GB Ventura; 2021 M1 MBAir; 2012 MBP
Digital Performer 11, LogicPro
Finale 27, Dorico 4, Encore 5.0.7, SmartScore Pro 64 Notion 6, Overture 5
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#758429 - 03/19/23 07:47 AM
[Songwriting]
Re: Do you copyright your songs before showing it to producers?
[Re: Mike Halloran]
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Registered: 01/15/15
Posts: 1389
Loc: Hampshire, UK
Expert
Registered: 01/15/15
Posts: 1389
Loc: Hampshire, UK
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Offering this nonsense as advice to others is stupid.
I read it as opinion: "this is what I do", not as advice. FWIW, I'm largely with Henry on this. If someone rips off my IP, unless I have very deep pockets to take them to court ... and win, it's just "tough".
_________________________
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 10; Win8.1: Scarletts
BIAB2022 UltraPAK, Reaper, a bunch of stuff.
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#758444 - 03/19/23 08:53 AM
[Songwriting]
Re: Do you copyright your songs before showing it to producers?
[Re: Gordon Scott]
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Registered: 04/24/17
Posts: 957
Loc: Sillie Con Valley, California
Expert
Registered: 04/24/17
Posts: 957
Loc: Sillie Con Valley, California
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Offering this nonsense as advice to others is stupid.
I read it as opinion: "this is what I do", not as advice. FWIW, I'm largely with Henry on this. If someone rips off my IP, unless I have very deep pockets to take them to court ... and win, it's just "tough". You misunderstood again. Claiming to be published by Tunecore when he is not and thinking that he is somehow protected by BMI… That’s just stupid. Nothing can protect anyone from that. Individuals cannot sue except over Unpublished works. Only Publishers sue over Published works in the US, UK and EU and for that, the correct certificates must be filed and no damages are due before the certificate date. Individuals often act as Publishers, of course, but not knowing that you are publishing? Sorry that you disagree but I called that one for what it is. Do what you want or don’t but at least go in with your eyes open. As for your ‘deep pockets’ nonsense, a good attorney knows what’s winnable. Almost no Copyright suits actually see a courtroom. I gave the link to Justia —do a BMI search and see what happens. BMI doesn’t actually sue—it’s the publishers—but they handle the evidence gathering and often the negotiations.
_________________________
BIAB 2022 Audiophile, 18 Core iMac Pro/4TB/128GB Ventura; 2021 M1 MBAir; 2012 MBP
Digital Performer 11, LogicPro
Finale 27, Dorico 4, Encore 5.0.7, SmartScore Pro 64 Notion 6, Overture 5
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#758451 - 03/19/23 09:34 AM
[Songwriting]
Re: Do you copyright your songs before showing it to producers?
[Re: QuestionAsker]
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Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 8635
Veteran
Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 8635
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This thread keeps going round and round and round in circles.
_________________________
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. As the sword chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer.
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#758455 - 03/19/23 10:00 AM
[Songwriting]
Re: Do you copyright your songs before showing it to producers?
[Re: Guitarhacker]
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Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 2166
Veteran
Registered: 01/07/20
Posts: 2166
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GH...i tend to agree . but a last kick of the can from moi...lol. cos ive never received answers that resolve the following conundrums when ive posed em'.
ALL.
heres a couple of challenges//posers for people as there are lots of very knowledgeable here..viz TWO CASES.
(ive posed these q's before to very educated people in the past without resolution….
thus the challenge.)
SCENARIO 1.
a young very talented struggling musician, after many years of little money, produces a song that the world loves and then starts making serious money.
BUT then along comes someone or a corporation who says thats like my xyz song…
and a major case ensues.
HOW IS THAT POOR MUSICIAN EXPECTED TO CHECK ALL THE ZILLION SONGS BEFORE HIS ?? (there are only so many chords n' note combos.).
its an unsolveable conundrum imho..now
SCENARIO 2.
another young musician goes thru' all the process and expense of getting protection for a song creation….which raises 2 questions…viz
a.. i'm having trouble understanding how the legal entities go about granting rights to this second musician and check the submission is unique n' unassailable.
do they have a bank of supercomputers checking the zillions of songs submitted before this latest one from the young musician. ? ie HOW DO THEY CHECK ?
it would seem an impossibility to me.
b..am i correct in thinking that even if the young musician has all the protections in place that STILL someone could say thats like my song…and an 'argey bargey' ensues.
given the above and my understanding that even if a musician goes thru' the appropo channels/expense problems for that musician can still ensue…
thus i would tend to agree with henry and gordon.
(or should we all go home n' stop doing songs ?)
i'm curious if someone can respond to the challenges of the above cases/conundrums with solutions.
happiness to all.
om
Edited by justanoldmuso (03/19/23 10:03 AM)
_________________________
MY WIFE TELLS HER FRIENDS I LET MY BIG OAF (me) HAVE 4 'BITS ON THE SIDE..BIAB/RB/REAPER' AND A NEW RYZEN MINI PC..lol. MY CRAZY SONGS....done with above. https://soundcloud.com/user-302791555/tracks
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#758459 - 03/19/23 10:25 AM
[Songwriting]
Re: Do you copyright your songs before showing it to producers?
[Re: Mike Halloran]
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Registered: 01/15/15
Posts: 1389
Loc: Hampshire, UK
Expert
Registered: 01/15/15
Posts: 1389
Loc: Hampshire, UK
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This is what I understood: "I don't bother copyrighting my songs before showing it to producers. Hell, it's hard enough to get someone to listen to them. I definitely ain't worrying about someone stealing them.". FWIW, I should have sued my ex-employer over their treatment of me. I didn't because all the advice fitted into four groups: 1) The parent company can afford to fight you for as long as it takes to bankrupt you. 2) Even if/when you win it is unlikely that you will be awarded sufficient damages to cover your legal costs. 3) As a white, middle-aged, male, you have hardly any hope of winning because nobody will support you. 4) Because of effects of the stress they've already put you through, the stress of facing aggressive lawyers will probably kill you. That despite solid documentary evidence that my ex-employer lied to me and about me in a nasty attempt to discredit me. Nothing to do with copyright, of course. It's no accident that many cases are fought in American courts where the payouts can be far larger.
_________________________
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 10; Win8.1: Scarletts
BIAB2022 UltraPAK, Reaper, a bunch of stuff.
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#758469 - 03/19/23 11:01 AM
[Songwriting]
Re: Do you copyright your songs before showing it to producers?
[Re: Mike Halloran]
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Registered: 04/26/20
Posts: 305
Journeyman
Registered: 04/26/20
Posts: 305
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Ray Parker Junior (Ghostbusters) said in a documentary "hell you know you got a hit when you get sued !! LOL" What he meant was that you can take almost any song and within the 7 notes probably come up with a similar song. As far as the question asked in this post I don't bother copyrighting my songs before showing it to producers. Hell, it's hard enough to get someone to listen to them. I definitely ain't worrying about someone stealing them. The songs I release are published through Tunecore Publishing and I am also a BMI member. If that's not enough protection then I'm out of luck. Plus if I wanted to go after someone for "stealing" my song I probably would need a load of cash in attorney's fees to even get close and if that person is connected to a major record company I'm pretty much out of luck. I would hope that if someone felt the need to "steal" my song they will come back to me for other songs and maybe I'd get some kind of deal. But as far as going the Government route and Copyrighting my songs I never bother. So, you trust a Russian company to protect your songs? You shouldn’t because they don’t. In their own words. TuneCore and Copyright Does TuneCore copyright my songs? The following information is regarding TuneCore's Publishing Administration service No, TuneCore does not register songs with the Copyright Office. According to copyright law, the composer owns the copyright to a composition as soon as it is fixed in a tangible medium (written down or recorded) Pursuant to the US copyright act, once a work is in a fixed form i.e. recorded to mp3 or CD, or written down, you are protected under copyright laws. However, registering your copyright with the Library of Congress makes this ownership part of the public record. This formal record affords the composer/author additional benefits. In other words, if a work is registered with the copyright office the author/composer has a stronger claim against infringements and better damage compensation as a result of infringement. You may complete the registration process online at https://www.copyright.gov/registration/ The PA form (Work of the Performing Arts) is the form used to register a composition (lyrics and music) The SR form (Sound Recording) is the form used to register the master or audio/sound recording only Let’s be very clear: Tunecore may be distributing your songs and collecting certain royalties on your behalf but they are clear that You are the Publisher, not they. BMI does not protect you either and they don’t claim to. Again, none of this matters if no one rips you off by a) claiming your work as theirs or b) covering your work without paying you. Do what you want how you like — no one is stopping you. Offering this nonsense as advice to others is stup First of all BOY this is my opinion and not advice. It's my personal view so don't call my opinion "STUPID". That [*****] ain't gonna work.
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#758506 - 03/19/23 09:34 PM
[Songwriting]
Re: Do you copyright your songs before showing it to producers?
[Re: QuestionAsker]
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Registered: 04/13/16
Posts: 5285
Loc: Cooran Queensland Australia
Veteran
Registered: 04/13/16
Posts: 5285
Loc: Cooran Queensland Australia
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Opinion is opinion.
Where there is no sense the opinion is nonsensical.
That status can be a matter of opinion but should be based on a matter of fact.
Something deemed nonsensical may be clarified so that it makes sense.
No one used the term stupid in reference to you Henry - other than you, that is.
"BOY", on the other hand, is a derogatory term you chose to use. You stooped to some low points in that short post.
As to TuneCore:
"Copyright fraud allegations
TuneCore has had multiple instances where their services are used to commit copyright fraud through online services like iTunes, Spotify, and Youtube. In one case, independent artists represented by TuneCore uploaded unreleased tracks by artists Playboi Carti and Lil Uzi Vert to Spotify. Plays of these tracks resulted in revenue going to the independent artists who were not the original owners of the music. In a similar case, TuneCore was sued by Round Hill Music for uploading and collecting revenue from iTunes for compositions owned by Round Hill. In a third case, TuneCore submitted copyright claims over a streamed performance of public domain classical music by Brett Yang and Eddy Chen of Twoset Violin, collecting revenue from the stream that would otherwise have gone to the performers."
As to the parent company:
"Believe has been accused of copyright trolling, particularly on YouTube, where it has been alleged to engage in claiming copyright for works that are either copyright free or that they do not own the rights to. The company was the subject of a New York federal lawsuit alleging that they were behind large scale, willful copyright infringement."
I suspect "The songs I release are published through Tunecore Publishing and I am also a BMI member. ", should read 'The songs I release are distributed through TuneCore, I am also a member of BMI.' TuneCore does list publishing as a service but access to any information is blocked for non account holders - that doesn't bode well. BMI collects royalties for performance of registered works - oft times from the places TuneCore/Believe distributes to.
I suspect that the company may be something to be suspicious of.
_________________________
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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#758508 - Yesterday at 03:45 AM
[Songwriting]
Re: Do you copyright your songs before showing it to producers?
[Re: rayc]
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Registered: 01/15/15
Posts: 1389
Loc: Hampshire, UK
Expert
Registered: 01/15/15
Posts: 1389
Loc: Hampshire, UK
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No one used the term stupid in reference to you Henry - other than you, that is. Yes someone did, on the basis that the person perceived Henry's post as advice. I read Henry's post as opinion, i.e.: here's how I feel about it and what I do. At no point did he advise anyone to do anything. Henry makes, IMHO, extremely good and accessible tutorials on using BiaB and I quite often suggest to newcomers that they look to his videos rather than PG Music's videos, because I think thay are more pragmatic and digesible for a newcomer. YMMV. Some months back Henry quit the fora and closed off all his tutorials in protest at the way he perceived people were behaving towards him. Several of us persuaded him to open his tutorials again and just have a rest from the fora ... have a break, unwind, whatever. He appears to have been back only a few weeks at most and he's being lambasted for his opinion. Calm down guys. Critique/caveat where appropriate, but keep it in perspective for goondess sakes.
_________________________
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 10; Win8.1: Scarletts
BIAB2022 UltraPAK, Reaper, a bunch of stuff.
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#758512 - Yesterday at 05:19 AM
[Songwriting]
Re: Do you copyright your songs before showing it to producers?
[Re: QuestionAsker]
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Registered: 04/13/16
Posts: 5285
Loc: Cooran Queensland Australia
Veteran
Registered: 04/13/16
Posts: 5285
Loc: Cooran Queensland Australia
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"Offering this nonsense as advice to others is stupid." Does imply that Henry or his opinion is stupid. It states that offering something as advice is stupid. Now the difference is significant...rather like saying a certain behaviour is bad rather than the child exhibiting that behaviour being bad.
EVEN if my interpretation was completely wrong it doesn't excuse the term used in response.
Gordon, you wrote:
"...the way he perceived people were behaving towards him."
"...back only a few weeks at most and he's being lambasted for his opinion."
You seem to have missed the common factor - & I don't mean just me.
"I read it as opinion: "this is what I do", not as advice." Each experience is offered by a commenter is a form of advice. Q What do you do when...? A. Well, I... It's not explicitly saying do this not that but it implies that this works. There's also the fact that the O.P really does ask for advice so each offering related to the question and request is a form of advice.
Most folk can cope with having their opinion challenged. Most folk either back up their opinion with fact, reach for sophistry as a means of defense, agree to disagree, modify their opinion based on evident fact, or cry foul, (or fowl), before running.
I reread the appropriate sections of the thread. I can accept your interpretation of the use of stupid but I don't read it that way. We disagree. I'm not going to start name calling though.
Mike can be hot fingered o posts BUT he did do some research so must've had some time to reflect before pressing "submit". He's a very opinionated keyboard warrior - as are many of us. He'd likely describe it as not suffering fools gladly which is a bit of sophistry in & of itself I suppose. I've jousted with him a few times - we don't see eye to eye often.
Henry, on the other hand, won't suffer contradiction or constructive criticism.
He's good, but not really of the status that requires an apologist.
_________________________
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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#758514 - Yesterday at 05:41 AM
[Songwriting]
Re: Do you copyright your songs before showing it to producers?
[Re: QuestionAsker]
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Registered: 04/24/17
Posts: 957
Loc: Sillie Con Valley, California
Expert
Registered: 04/24/17
Posts: 957
Loc: Sillie Con Valley, California
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Henry is not being lambasted for his opinion. I called out his statement that he was published by Tunecore and protected by BMI … neither is true and no amount of “opinion” changes this. Failure to due diligence on one’s own works is naive at best but, with all the resources out there, I gave it a different name. My opinion is unchanged.
He doesn’t have to protect his works. I don’t care one way or the other. It costs some money and takes a bit of paperwork. Many chose not to do it but patting oneself on the back for not knowing how things work? If I didn’t point out why he was wrong, that would be irresponsible of me. If Henry wants to apologies to me, that’s cool but I’m good if he doesn’t.
Ray’s summation of Tunecore barely scratches the surface. Fighting their takedown notices often involves a cease and desist letter from your attorney. A lot more expensive and usually avoidable by submitting a copy of Registered Form PA. Tunecore, like most bullies, usually backs down when challenged but telling them that they are infringing on your copyrights takes more than just telling them—you do need to submit documentation or a letter from your attorney. The Brazilian bots are easier to fight, BTW.
I have no intention of trying to parse oldmuseo’s hypotheticals. That would involve speculation bordering on practicing law.
I’ll get to the big case that cost a naive writer an estimated $18M later this week when I get home. Am in NYC at the moment taking in a few shows and the Met.
_________________________
BIAB 2022 Audiophile, 18 Core iMac Pro/4TB/128GB Ventura; 2021 M1 MBAir; 2012 MBP
Digital Performer 11, LogicPro
Finale 27, Dorico 4, Encore 5.0.7, SmartScore Pro 64 Notion 6, Overture 5
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#758515 - Yesterday at 06:06 AM
[Songwriting]
Re: Do you copyright your songs before showing it to producers?
[Re: Mike Halloran]
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Registered: 01/15/15
Posts: 1389
Loc: Hampshire, UK
Expert
Registered: 01/15/15
Posts: 1389
Loc: Hampshire, UK
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I don't ask or expect for you opinion to change.
I do think it might have be better to give caveates about Tunecore and BMI, rather than use the term 'stupid', which was almost guaranteed to be taken personally.
_________________________
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 10; Win8.1: Scarletts
BIAB2022 UltraPAK, Reaper, a bunch of stuff.
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