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I’m a 24 guy all the way.
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24 for sure. Studied this exact think in college. This also "glances' off the study of modes.
As I once told my pal who has 6 guitars and can only play the intro to Smoke On The Water, until you understand what WWHWWWH means you really can't begin to understand music. This video indirectly addresses that.
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24 for me. I have never really thought about a 12 key model except that an octave has 12 notes (which is not what this study is referring to).
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I understand both. When I think about modes, I think 12. When I read Rick Beato's book, I think 24.
At the end of the day, there is no confusion when you are reading notes from standard notation/tab or hearing notes, assuming you can hear...lol.
Those notes and chords, for that matter, have to go together no matter what you call them or how you arrived at that sound.
We use a lot of different communication methods to communicate the same thing. For example, D minor, Dmin, Dm, and D-. How to say Dorian to a guitar player. Play like that Santana stuff...lol
Talk to someone from most universities, and it is 24. Talk to the guy who teaches at the music store, and it will likely be 12.
If you are confused by all this, you most likely never learned to speak both French and English...lol do,re,mi, and all that female dear stuff...lol
Billy
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Why 24 and not 30? At the last rehearsal I was given a chart with a solo over Dmin then D#min. This is one of those things that music notation programs create when transposing. I don’t know any jazz player who wouldn’t prefer Ebmin to D#min. Same thing enharmonically, but a world of difference when sight reading.
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24 in my late '90s college music theory courses. I remember every Friday we had to write all the major, natural minor, and melodic minor scales on staff paper. The teacher would cut a minute off the time allotted each week. We got pretty quick at writing it all down by the end of the semester although neatness suffered a little bit. 
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I don’t know any jazz player who wouldn’t prefer Ebmin to D#min. I'm definitely one of the jazz players that you do know
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I don’t know any jazz player who wouldn’t prefer Ebmin to D#min. I'm definitely one of the jazz players that you do know Yes indeed you are! So wouldn’t you rather see Ebmin?
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Yes indeed you are! So wouldn’t you rather see Ebmin? My somewhat convoluted reply was really meant to identify that I would ALWAYS prefer Ebmin. It's so much easier to sight read, and just makes sense. (D#min? Yuk  )
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As someone who generally only plays popular styles of music, to begin with, Gb major/F# major and their relative minors of ebmin/d#min, fortunately, are not that common. Several things come to mind about keys. Either you can sight-read the chart, or you can not. Either you are willing to play it in that key, or you are not. If you can and will play in that key, then it does not make much difference. Many things one has to do in music is a PITB. All this 24/12 stuff to the vast majority of guitar players is meaningless, to begin with. Most don't or, more likely, can not site read. Here are a couple of examples of why sight reading for guitar is a pain in the... Example one  Example 2  How many of you would know that example one is to be played in "Chicken Pickin' style or example two is "Travis picking? Sure, someone would most likely tell you that but would you then know how to read the chart? Yes, highly skilled studio musicians guitar players do this every day. There are many ways to communicate musical ideas that have nothing to do with classical training. Ebmin, six flats, why would you write in that key to begin with? Billy
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... Ebmin, six flats, why would you write in that key to begin with?
Billy You would likely not. But that's actually a very fair question to discuss. For those of us who compose for large ensembles, the answer is not trivial. I play in a big band where the parts are written for Trumpet in Bb. Most of us compose in concert pitch, and the two chord changes are Cmin (3 flats) to C#min (4 sharps). Now, one can't really argue that C#min should be Dbmin, because that would be eight flats. So it's Cmin to C#min. But what happens when the arranger then prints the trumpet part where everything is raised a full step? At that point, interesting things start to show up. It becomes Dmin (one flat; fine) to D#min (six sharps). D#min is enharmonically correct, but I would rather see Ebmin (six flats). Flat to flat is easier to get your head around. Make sense?
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Sharp brain vs flat brain. Know the concept well!
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... Ebmin, six flats, why would you write in that key to begin with?
Billy You would likely not. But that's actually a very fair question to discuss. For those of us who compose for large ensembles, the answer is not trivial. I play in a big band where the parts are written for Trumpet in Bb. Most of us compose in concert pitch, and the two chord changes are Cmin (3 flats) to C#min (4 sharps). Now, one can't really argue that C#min should be Dbmin, because that would be eight flats. So it's Cmin to C#min. But what happens when the arranger then prints the trumpet part where everything is raised a full step? At that point, interesting things start to show up. It becomes Dmin (one flat; fine) to D#min (six sharps). D#min is enharmonically correct, but I would rather see Ebmin (six flats). Flat to flat is easier to get your head around. Make sense? This is very logical to me. It is also something that I assume happens from time to time. Generally speaking, most arrangers are not looking to make things difficult or arrange without considering the instrument. If I usually play something in the key of A, and I am lucky enough to get to play with a horn section, I will play it in Bb if it does not mess up the singer. Writers should write in whatever key they want to. I don't like putting limits on people's creativity. But...some of us may be unable to play it very well, if at all. I used to play with an old blues player, Big Walter. Everything he played was in C#. There were no charts, and I could not have read them back then. It may have been a bit of a strange key, but it is actually pretty easy for a guitar player. It puts the relative minor in Bbmin where lead lines and fills behind the vocal could easily come from. Every big band I listen to plays Jazz or Latin. The musicians are generally classically trained in formal music schools. Everyone has a chart on the music stand in front of them whether they are playing off it or not. Most of these people are highly skilled sight-readers but also have great ears. I think it is better to understand music theory and be able to read and write than not. It is also not an absolute necessity for being able to create great music. Even these simple discussions about 24/12 are limited to those of us who have some idea of theory, no matter where we learned the theory. We should try our best to be inclusive and bring other people into these conversations with less structured musical communication methods. I am constantly amazed at the small number of people who actually post things on this forum. Billy
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
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Flat to flat is easier to get your head around.
Make sense? OK, I'm weird, and I've already said that many times .. but you are changing scale either way. Why would flat to flat make it easier? Maybe because I learned keyboards before trumpet, I visualize them in my head the same either way. It's the same notes on the keyboard. At that point the key sig becomes not much more than a label. Granted you probably see Ebm more than D#m in everyday use, so I guess that could make a difference, but I don't understand why the flat to flat would be preferred. Do you get into a 'flat' mode/mentality .. or ? Not trying to be contrary, as the answer may help me to understand other musicians better.
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Mainly, I think, is because there is no D# ALTO sax. (Good catch, Harv!)
Sharp brain vs flat brain.
Last edited by eddie1261; 05/15/23 02:39 PM. Reason: Changed tenor to alto. My duh!
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Okay, I'm even more confused now .. is there an Eb Tenor??
Alto, yes, but tenor?
And what if they did originally call the Eb alto a D# alto instead, would that have made a difference?
Actually I may be getting it now; writing the alto part out in D# vs Eb (relative concert) would seem more difficult, the theory and all, but is that because we have kinda been trained that way?
Alto is up a minor third; account for it (adjust notation) .. well in C that would be Eb .. maybe I do get it now after all.
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No, it's a coin flip in this one case, so I just like to 'change less' by flat key to flat key. Or maybe it's because I play a Be Flat instrument?
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Transposing instruments like clarinets, saxophones, trombones, and trumpets perhaps requires an explanation for all who don't understand that concept. Also, why would they be made that way?
Billy
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Also, why would they be made that way? Often wondered the same thing, but I think it is to get the desired timbre during horn design, and whatever pitch the instrument ends up making when 'open' is the key of the instrument .. but then a guitar/bass would be an 'E' instrument (basically) A very complex/confusing language Like a Bb instrument actually sounds down a step at C, so you have to transpose up one to compensate .. and then they throw in the Eb instruments .. which means transposing 'down' a third (or up 6 to correct for expected notation) .. mental gymnastics in real time, but fun
Last edited by rharv; 05/15/23 01:56 PM.
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....hence the need to learn the topic of "Concert Pitch".
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THAT mistake from an Alto Sax player!! Good catch.
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When I taught myself sax, I learned it in concert pitch. So the fingering that is F# plays a concert A, and I learned that fingering to mean A. So I got to college, joined bands, and they handed me Eb music. I literally went home and rewrote every piece of music to be in C. By my 3rd performance class as a Junior I got to where I could do it in my head, but that first couple of quarters I spent a lot of time writing,
Last edited by eddie1261; 05/15/23 02:55 PM.
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Think of the soprano, alto, tenor, and bari sax. All are fingered the same way. You see a G in the notation, you finger it the same way on any sax. Can you imagine having to play a different fingering on each sax? So, all you need is music that is correctly transposed for the horn you have.
Brass isn’t quite as simple but it’s a similar concept.
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....hence the need to learn the topic of "Concert Pitch". This. I get dragged into threads quite often when someone is confused because they started with a transposed fakebook. It’s always more logical to start in concert pitch and then convert.
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For a while Matt I went back and forth from alto to soprano to bari. And transposed in my head. No wonder I am crazy now.
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For a while Matt I went back and forth from alto to soprano to bari. And transposed in my head. No wonder I am crazy now. And there it is, proof of what I was saying.
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I had a music teacher who'd wanted to play jazz and started with a saxophone. She stopped very quickly because she had absolute pitch and couldn't come to terms with music not in concert pitch. "I try to play a note but the wrong note comes out and I just became very confused".
My own preference, I think(!), would have been to learn the different fingerings for the instruments for concert pitch, or just choose one instrument and learn only it ... in concert. I did that as a child with recorders (C and F), but maybe I'm being naive about it. AFAIA the mouthing and breath control of the various instruments are sufficiently different and one really has to fully learn each instrument anyway, so I'm unclear if the different pitches really help.
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It’s always more logical to start in concert pitch and then convert. My first big experience in all this was with the William Byrd Suite. I told my theory instructor (1990s) that I liked that piece and the next day he had a Xerox'd copy of it for me. At the time I had a Commodore Amiga with Dr. T's Keyboard Sequencer, an awesome MIDI tool. My personal project was to transcribe as much of the Bill Byrd Suite to MIDI as I could. There's at least a dozen different instruments in it. The first instruments I recall inputting were things like piano and flute that don't typically require transposition. I then moved on to brass, clarinets, saxes, etc, then my work was much harder. It was easy to hear if a new instrument I added was not transposed correctly. It sounded waaaaay off. If anything, that was the perfect project to teach myself all this cool stuff on transposing and concert pitch.
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Rather late for the original question, but I think there are 30 keys in Western music.
7 flats through zero then 7 sharps, major and relative minor.
It can be argued there are many more, though, as the fifteen time-signatures each have seven modes, giving 105. And Blues and mixo-blues and... There undoubtedly more, because much music from other cultures doesn't fit neatly our Western 12-note scale.
Enough sums already. :-)
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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Band-in-a-Box® 2024 German for Windows is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 für Windows Deutsch ist verfügbar!
Wir waren fleißig und haben über 50 neue Funktionen und eine erstaunliche Sammlung neuer Inhalte hinzugefügt, darunter 222 RealTracks, neue RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, "Songs with Vocals" Artist Performance Sets, abspielbare RealTracks Set 3, abspielbare RealDrums Set 2, zwei neue Sets von "RealDrums Stems", XPro Styles PAK 6, Xtra Styles PAK 17 und mehr!
Paket | Was ist Neu
Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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