Well, the post I was referring to in my first paragraph about the books his vanished.
No. I removed it just after posting. After reviewing my recommendation of a way to simplify the mixing process, I was thinking it was a bit too strong for general acceptance from this thread. Sure enough, it was.
However, other than the nonsense to burn Peter McIan's books, Mr. Dickens remarks are substantially correct. The multi track recording and mixing principles in these books aren't outdated or obsolete regardless that the books were published in 1993 and 1996 respectively. Both are still in print today and can be purchased new according to the Amazon web page.
Cookie cutter recipes in those books are starting points, not Grammy award winning templates. I agree that it's unlikely a 100 Hz boost on every instrument was not standard procedure on Mr. McIan's two albums he produced for Men at Work, or for the recordings of his two original songs recorded by Barbara Streisand and Pat Benatar. More likely it was an issue of a design deficiency in the hardware circuitry from that time period. I haven't looked to see why, it's irrelevant to the point. What was stated that's relevant, is that those cookie cutter recipes may or may not work in the beginning. That is exactly the point of the initial post. There's at least a 50% chance the mix will sound good but it's also a simple and easy fix if the mix needs tweaking. Physically turn knobs with a limited amount of quality EQ and effects, not deal with thousands of choices found in software. Software is available if it's needed.
Rather than "practice, practice, practice" or delve hours, days and weeks into college level textbooks that have been recommended, simplify and use a hardware device where mixing revolves mostly around 3 eq knobs and a fader. If that 100hz boost isn't sounding right, turn that knob down until the mud goes away. Mixers or stand alone digital multi track recorders and also the newer hybrid hard disk recorder/mixer combos are readily available and can be very affordable purchased used.
There was also a link in that deleted post to an article listing 10 mainstream, songs or albums released in the early 90's that were commercial hits by Bruce Springsteen, Seal, and Lou Reed, among others. What's notable is that all were recorded on Tascam Cassette Portastudio's.
Yes, there are sections in these books that the reader can disregard about hardware wow and flutter, maybe a 100hz boost in EQ, but all of the recording and mixing principles, recipes and techniques are still relevant today and would simplify the mixing process for any user.
Forget that Peter McIan book. It's garbage. Besides being filled with cookie cutter recipes that may or may not work for your project, is full of all kinds of bad advice. For example, his go-to for every instrument is to boost 100 Hz. If you do that, your mix is going to end up being a muddy mess. I guarantee that's not what was done on the Men at Work album that he produced.
Ok, I was confused a little at first but now I understand given a bit more context. Thanks for the resources!
Quote:
As far as "I can't sing:"
Ah yes, Kenny T. I've actually watched a good number of his videos. Dude can sing for sure. The only things for me that were negatives were, he seems to have 1 volume, and his tongue looks very strained fairly often. I know he has explained this as being some advanced technique, but I have never seen another singer do that. Even the people he's emulating. He certainly does a damn good Lou Gram though. NOT easy to do by any means.
On a side note, did you know he's Sammy Hagar's cousin? I know he mentions it every so often. Apparently they had a falling out at some point and Sammy has distanced himself from Ken. They genes are there though! lol
Quote:
A final piece of advice if you want to get good at anything, you need to give yourself permission to suck. No one starts out great at anything.
I so agree to this philosophy. I've heard it said the fastest way to improve is fail more and faster. I'm not a perfectionist by any means. I do like to progress and do find frustration in not knowing what to do, trying something, getting a poor result, and not knowing what to change. It's like asking someone for directions to get to Disney and they ask "ok, where are you now?" And you don't know that either! This will be an adventure I and very much appreciate the advice and encouragement! Thank you for taking the time to respond.
Last edited by HearToLearn; 05/22/2305:08 AM.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
Regarding technologies out there..... Auto-tune, Melodyne, etc can go a long way to cleaning up timing and pitch issues. This video was VERY interesting to me. This guy went out of his way to sing badly and was still able to get it to sound good. Maybe there's hope for my vocals yet!!
Dave: I'd like to hear a summary of your mixing process.
Hi Ed.
I'm not very good with short responses, hopefully something here will be useful.
I'll start with BiaB tracks and vocals. These will all go into Reaper. I'll normalize all the tracks. I'll often have "alternate" tracks, so I'll mute those.
The first thing I'll usually do is normalize the vocals so they are at a constant level throughout the song. I'll slice the vocal up at the word or syllable level, normalize that portion, and adjust it down if necessary.
You can do that with a compressor or compressors in series, and there's a feature in Melodyne to do that. But I prefer the level of control that I get doing it manually.
I'll also pay special attention to the plosives, balancing them out of they are too loud or too quiet. If there's any that are particularly bad, I'll see if I can steal a good one from somewhere else.
I do the same with fricative such as /s/, which I find easier and more precise than using a de-esser.
Once that's done, I'll get a quick balance of the instruments. I'll pay the most attention to the vocals, bass and drums, since these are the instruments that tend to stay at a pretty constant level in my mixes.
I'll often throw a mastering tool on the Master buss at this point, since it gives a better idea of what the final sound will be like. Ozone Elements is good for getting a loud mix, but I also like the Lurssen Mastering Console a lot.
I'll then have a listen to decide what's missing. Perhaps there's a section that could change to a simpler guitar strum, or some strings. I'll go back to BiaB and see if I can find something.
I'll also listen for where things need more change. The simplest way to do that is to remove some instruments.
If there's something in the same space as a lead, such as a strummed acoustic with a vocal, I'll often throw TrackSpacer on to make sure that instrument stays out of the way. If there are clarity issues, such as the drum masking plosives, I may go back to the vocal and boost those masked consonants.
Having the tracks sound "flat" is always a problem, so I try to figure out how to place them in space. I've got a number of tools such as Sunset Sound Studio Reverb and Fame Studio Reverb that place sounds into "real" rooms.
Recently I've been using Panagement. Although I have the paid version, the free version has everything I need. It can be used to place a sound into a virtual space, and I really like the way it makes things sound.
I don't like to fiddle with FX forever, so ReaEQ (Reaper's EQ) and EZMix get added to the signal chains frequently. I like the Greg Wells VoiceCentric plugin on vocals. My "go to" reverbs are Raum and LX480 essentials. If I'm lazy, I'll just add them to the end of the chain, but I'll usually have a dedicated FX buss for vocals.
I'll go through each track and manually adjust the gain envelopes. Each instrument will have an ebb and flow as it comes in, plays its part, and exits. I'll add peaks where I want to highlight something like a drum or guitar fill, but otherwise keep them in the background.
Once that's working, I render, listen, lather, rinse and repeat. I've got a room simulation software for my headphones called Realphones and some decent monitors. Burning the mix to CD and listening in the car is always a depressing experience. The mix always seems to sound brighter and punchier in the DAW then the final render.
Each song is a learning experience - especially when I come back with fresh ears! I'll occasionally come back and re-mix some of the songs, especially if it's got a synthetic vocal that I wasn't happy with.
I think David's mixing process is pretty logical. It obviously works based on the results I hear in his songs.
There are two things that generally happen, both mixing and fixing.
How that comes about depends on how the source track is arrived at. Did it come out of BIAB or from some other software package? Was it played live, a live vocal?
At that point, before mixing can start, I need to decide what I will fix or redo.
GIGO, garbage in, garbage out! No software, including Melodyne, can fix a bad vocal. Do I play the guitar part again or try to punch it in? Am I capable of ever playing it properly? Am I willing to live with my less-than-stellar musical abilities? How much cringe factor am I willing to deal with?...lol
What is my fundamental reason for involving myself in all these issues? Am I primarily interested in playing/singing music or electronically manipulating music? There are a lot of fun things to do here on this forum. BIAB creates an environment that allows "non-musicians" to create music. It's Pretty cool stuff when you think about it.
You are not going to learn how to mix by reading a book. The only way to learn how to mix is by mixing and having some guidance and competent feedback.
David is a very technically oriented person and likes all this mixing business. I, on the other hand, only mix stuff because I am forced to...lol
Billy
Billy
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
I regularly post incomplete stuff to the Showcase to get feedback & suggestions. I have reasonable gear and less than stellar ears so I need other folk to listen. I also belong to a recording forum that has a specific section for posting mixes to get feedback, comments, suggestions etc. It's really useful and I try almost all suggestions from both places...not all stay but they are usually tried. To lessen the finickertiness of the digital domain & it's tendency to promote endless tweaking/unfinished mixes I recommend fran ashcroft the analogue approach to digital recording and mixing I've had a great relationship with the author as my Mastering Engineer for over a decade and have slowly moved closer to his way of mix thinking. Walking away from a mix, taking a break for an half hour or day, knowing when I'm just treading water or going around in circles and stopping are more important to a mix as EQ & panning. Placing "mastering" tools on the stereo bus while mixing can be dangerous. Yes, I may want to get a glimpse at how the reverb will respond to a limiter and I'll do that but I won't leave it there. Mastering isn't fixing just as mixing isn't recording. Mastering is, really, about preparing a track for duplication in a given format. For many of us that's getting a great mix and then getting a good -14 or so LUFS based rendering of that mix. Most of the other things thought of as mastering are mix fixes that should've been done in advance of the mastering. I get other ears for my mix and then send the mix to great ears for mastering...sometimes it needs a fix and is sent back, other times it needs an EQ tweak across the mix that the ME can do easily enough. Occasionally it just needed limiting/compression adjustment to get it a little louder. The more ears the better, the better the ears & communication the better still. My favourite home recorded album is the 1st by the Mull Historical Society. He did a great job recording and mixing but used someone else to master and the result are stellar... I know Bud Merritt masters really well, I know perhaps four people with the ears for that task.
Last edited by rayc; 05/23/2302:37 PM.
Cheers rayc "What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
However, other than the nonsense to burn Peter McIan's books, Mr. Dickens remarks are substantially correct. The multi track recording and mixing principles in these books aren't outdated or obsolete regardless that the books were published in 1993 and 1996 respectively. Both are still in print today and can be purchased new according to the Amazon web page.
Among all the other bad advice, most egregiously the guy recommends using egg cartons for "soundproofing." Besides conflating soundproofing with acoustic treatment, not only do egg cartons not work, they are a fire hazard.
Frankly, it is a far better idea to burn the book than burn your house down.
Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
Cookie cutter recipes in those books are starting points, not Grammy award winning templates. I agree that it's unlikely a 100 Hz boost on every instrument was not standard procedure on Mr. McIan's two albums he produced for Men at Work, or for the recordings of his two original songs recorded by Barbara Streisand and Pat Benatar. More likely it was an issue of a design deficiency in the hardware circuitry from that time period.
Hogwash.
Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
it's also a simple and easy fix if the mix needs tweaking. Physically turn knobs with a limited amount of quality EQ and effects, not deal with thousands of choices found in software.
Strawman argument. EQs all pretty much do the same thing. The only real differences are in the details. If you know how to use one, you know how to use them all.
Also, the stock plugins that come with your DAW of choice are perfectly serviceable and capable of producing pro level results. In fact, you have right there at your disposal better than Norman Smith and Geoff Emerick had to work with and they seemed to do OK.
No need to burden yourself self with "thousands of choices" if you don't want to.
Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
Mixers or stand alone digital multi track recorders and also the newer hybrid hard disk recorder/mixer combos are readily available and can be very affordable purchased used.
DAWs are also readily available and often affordable.
Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
There was also a link in that deleted post to an article listing 10 mainstream, songs or albums released in the early 90's that were commercial hits by Bruce Springsteen, Seal, and Lou Reed, among others. What's notable is that all were recorded on Tascam Cassette Portastudio's.
What is also notable is that those songs were recorded by the likes of Bruce Springsteen, Seal, Lou Reed, etc.
Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
Yes, there are sections in these books that the reader can disregard about hardware wow and flutter, maybe a 100hz boost in EQ, but all of the recording and mixing principles, recipes and techniques are still relevant today and would simplify the mixing process for any user.
All of the recording and mixing principles can be learned from better sources.
Byron Dickens
BIAB. CbB. Mixbus 32C 8 HP Envy. Intel core i7. 16GB RAM W10. Focusrite Scarlett 18i 20. Various instruments played with varying degrees of proficiency.
So, I've been taking a lot of the suggestions here and just going for it. Making the mistakes. Using some of this and some of that. Do they call this mixing because it's like a recipe? You have to know the ingredients. You have to know the amounts. Yet, there is still plenty of little tweaks that happen in the process?
Again thanks for the encouragement, resources, and permission to suck! lol
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
Here is my two cent offering, because I think the issues you are describing trace back to many factors, not just mixing per se.
Because I have had the opportunity to work and mingle with a lot of songwriters and musicians all over the spectrum, I can say that a successful sound seems to come from the following components.
1.) You are doing something that you absolutely flat-out love to do not something that you are trying to do or forcing yourself to do.
2.) Your love for what you do is displayed primarily by the amount of time that you spend practicing it.
3.) If you want to play the guitar well, for example, you basically have to play it all day long, or as many hours as you can spare if you have a job as most of us do.
4.) Ditto for songwriting.
5.) Ditto for learning how to record a song.
6.) Ditto for learning how to produce a song.
7.) Ditto for learning how to mix a song.
8.) In addition to all the dittos you try and keep a song as simple as you can possibly make it and only add in what is absolutely necessary.
9.) Your "starting place" board has eight tracks. You only go to nine tracks or more if you really have to.
10.) You spend most of your time trying to get a great sound out of the bass and the drums and the vocals. Everything else in the mix lives to add spice and flavor to those tracks and does nothing to overwhelm them.
And finally...
11.) You feel an incredible amount of joy when you are doing all of the things above and it's a sense of pure fun that you could not possibly derive from doing any other thing...Well except for one.
In your daily life, do any of those 11 things apply to you??
David Snyder Songwriter/Renaissance Man Studio + Fingers
I'm glad so many people have replied already, and I'm about to ditto a couple of points. First of all I think posting what you've got and getting comments, on this forum at least, is a great way to learn. I certainly agree with what David Snyder said above, and also recommend you take David Cuny up on his offers. I too am not a singer, and I had no experience in producing and mastering before coming here - both of which are painfully obvious. I know I've still got a lot of learning to do, but I also know I've learned a lot already from comments made on my prior postings. I pick up a little as I go and apply it to my next ones - and the learning process is fun, even if it is frustrating at times.
I also understand about the time issue. I've had a lot of life happening lately too, and in fact, I haven't had any time for recording/posting/learning since January. I've not even been able to listen to others stuff in a long while. As an example of David Cunys' ability and patients, he helped me with that last song I posted in January. I was experimenting with something completely out of my usual genre, and once again it did not come out well. David asked me to send him my original tracks, which I did. He then remixed and did some adding and subtracting and came up with a much better version, all without me doing any other recording. He also talked me through some of the process and helped explain some things and give suggestions. Fortunately for me, we don't live too far from each other and plan to actually get together in person when my life eventually slows down a bit. Anyway, if you want to hear an example of a not-so-good song and then David's work to make it better, the song I did is at https://soundcloud.com/user-722422510/messiah, and David's remix is at https://soundcloud.com/user-722422510/messiah-version-2 .
When I do get some time to listen, I'm looking forward to hearing more of your stuff.
They say ( I don't actually know who "they" are ) that if you practice something for simply 20 minutes a day, every day, at the end of a year you will be better than 95% of the rest of the people regarding whatever "that" is.
However, to put that into perspective, that means that there are 16 million people in the USA who are still better than you at whatever "that" happens to be. To get better than the vast majority you have to spend more time doing whatever "that" is and the further up you want to go the more time you have to spend doing it because it's not a linear scale.
Also note that simply practicing isn't the answer. Practicing correctly and with mentoring and direction is what makes the difference for most folks.
As with any skill in life......You don't know what you don't know until you know it.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
Regarding technologies out there..... Auto-tune, Melodyne, etc can go a long way to cleaning up timing and pitch issues. This video was VERY interesting to me. This guy went out of his way to sing badly and was still able to get it to sound good. Maybe there's hope for my vocals yet!!
Yeah, I saw this video a little while back and have to agree. I'm glad you have hope! I'm not sure I'm there just yet. Man, I cannot sing. The ONLY thing I have going for me is rhythm. Wrong notes can be fixed to an extent; but my tone is not good! Not good at all.
I can mimic to an extent certain singers pretty well, but not in the styles I'm writing.
Are you as excited as I am to see where some of these AI and Synth voices are going? I'm ecstatic!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
I think David's mixing process is pretty logical. It obviously works based on the results I hear in his songs.
There are two things that generally happen, both mixing and fixing.
How that comes about depends on how the source track is arrived at. Did it come out of BIAB or from some other software package? Was it played live, a live vocal?
At that point, before mixing can start, I need to decide what I will fix or redo.
GIGO, garbage in, garbage out! No software, including Melodyne, can fix a bad vocal. Do I play the guitar part again or try to punch it in? Am I capable of ever playing it properly? Am I willing to live with my less-than-stellar musical abilities? How much cringe factor am I willing to deal with?...lol
What is my fundamental reason for involving myself in all these issues? Am I primarily interested in playing/singing music or electronically manipulating music? There are a lot of fun things to do here on this forum. BIAB creates an environment that allows "non-musicians" to create music. It's Pretty cool stuff when you think about it.
You are not going to learn how to mix by reading a book. The only way to learn how to mix is by mixing and having some guidance and competent feedback.
David is a very technically oriented person and likes all this mixing business. I, on the other hand, only mix stuff because I am forced to...lol
Billy
Billy
You sir, just described me to a T as far as mixing. At this point, I would get to the level of a decent mix that doesn't distract from the song! Kind of funny; but also very true!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
I regularly post incomplete stuff to the Showcase to get feedback & suggestions. I have reasonable gear and less than stellar ears so I need other folk to listen. I also belong to a recording forum that has a specific section for posting mixes to get feedback, comments, suggestions etc. It's really useful and I try almost all suggestions from both places...not all stay but they are usually tried. To lessen the finickertiness of the digital domain & it's tendency to promote endless tweaking/unfinished mixes I recommend fran ashcroft the analogue approach to digital recording and mixing I've had a great relationship with the author as my Mastering Engineer for over a decade and have slowly moved closer to his way of mix thinking. Walking away from a mix, taking a break for an half hour or day, knowing when I'm just treading water or going around in circles and stopping are more important to a mix as EQ & panning. Placing "mastering" tools on the stereo bus while mixing can be dangerous. Yes, I may want to get a glimpse at how the reverb will respond to a limiter and I'll do that but I won't leave it there. Mastering isn't fixing just as mixing isn't recording. Mastering is, really, about preparing a track for duplication in a given format. For many of us that's getting a great mix and then getting a good -14 or so LUFS based rendering of that mix. Most of the other things thought of as mastering are mix fixes that should've been done in advance of the mastering. I get other ears for my mix and then send the mix to great ears for mastering...sometimes it needs a fix and is sent back, other times it needs an EQ tweak across the mix that the ME can do easily enough. Occasionally it just needed limiting/compression adjustment to get it a little louder. The more ears the better, the better the ears & communication the better still. My favourite home recorded album is the 1st by the Mull Historical Society. He did a great job recording and mixing but used someone else to master and the result are stellar... I know Bud Merritt masters really well, I know perhaps four people with the ears for that task.
Wow! Some great information and hope in your response for me! I've always liked your mixes and know you put effort into them. It shows!
You mentioning about mastering tools while mixing being dangerous is one place I believe I've really gone wrong. I don't know what something is going to sound like so I slap those tools on and mix. I have NOT had good results with that approach! Go figure. Thank you for bringing this up.
I have referred to your response several times while trying various options. Thanks again for taking the time to post your response Ray. I found it and continue to find it very useful!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
Thanks for the update. I'm looking forward to hearing something in the near future. Keep at it!
Thanks Jim! I appreciate the encouragement. I'm trying to keep notes because I can do a little here and a little there. But when I come back to it, I have to remember what I was doing. All in good learning.
I hope all is well with you!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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Thanks for the resources! 
This will be an adventure I and very much appreciate the advice and encouragement! Thank you for taking the time to respond.
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