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Hey, I am asking a weird question to see how you songwriters answer in a poll. I know, I know, the question I am asking can always get the answer: "Well it depends." But I would like to hear your answer if you were forced to pick. Why? Because I am doing a lot of co-writes and collabs all over the place, and I am definitely a "gotta have a beat and a groove guy." To ME (and just me), a song has to have a great groove and a great beat first and foremost if it is going to turn me on (and I mean that literally, because I think music is sensual), and then come the chords after that. I do love me a good set of lyrics now, but I see the lyrics as having to "serve" the music, not the other way around. But that is just me, and I know others start with lyrics, and find music to fit. For me, truth me told, the title, hook and music usually all come at the same time when I am jamming, but I don't usually get too interested if there in't a groove. So, ladies and gents.... If you HAD to pick, what serves what? Do the lyrics serve the music, or does the music serve the lyrics? For this poll, you can't say "it depends." You have to pick one.  I just wanna know how other people see it.
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There is no "Poll" button? Anyway... We 2 don't always agree when it comes to music, but here I'm 100% with you: the groove, the beat, the chords, in that order. If that grabs me, I don't really care about the rest. Simple example: I LOVE Stevie Wonder's voice, but I could listen to the intro of Superstition for hours, over and over. No vocals needed  There are, of course, some a cappella exceptions where I just love the voice(s), but in general the music comes first for me.
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The music is first. I view lyrics without music as a poem. Sometimes lyrics or an idea for lyrics will come first but it's not a song until there is music to be heard.
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[quote=David Snyder]
.........................
I do love me a good set of lyrics now, but I see the lyrics as having to "serve" the music, not the other way around. But that is just me, and I know others start with lyrics, and find music to fit......................./quote]
I agree. The lyrics and/or the lead instruments(s) must serve the music.
{edit} PS - You can start with the lyrics but you must generate a groove and chord progression that the lyrics can serve. Same end result just different methods to get there.
Last edited by MarioD; 06/04/23 03:26 PM.
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Proportionally I've started with lyrics 1st for about 75% of my stuff.
I had a bank of lyrics waiting for songs but as I'm spending more time with the music side of things I've had less time to write lyrics I've depleted my swag and have had to write "on demand" of late.
For me, usually, the music carries the mood and intent of the lyric rather than the reverse.
This is probably why a) my songs are wordy and b) the music of my songs lack familiarity.
Writing to match the music usually leaves me with more impressionistic, vague lyrics that, when spoken/sung, have a "sound" more than a narrative. There's also a matter of the melody being an after though along with the words if I work this way.
Instrumental songs don't have a lyric, (though there is a vocabulary), but they, usually, have a melody & a "voice".
I'm part way through an instrumental song because I lack the lyrics, the parts are too long for my very limited vocal range to maintain interest and it makes an interesting change. I've chosen cello as the "voice" because it's not far away from a human baritone AND I know a good cellist.
Last edited by rayc; 06/04/23 03:43 PM.
Cheers
rayc
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Music takes precedence for me. A catchy tune first gets me paying attention and then I'll take more notice of the lyrics.
I rarely (if ever) heard of a 'hook' that was based on the lyrics of a song.
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I rarely start with music but sometimes I do. Normally, after the first few lines, I'll know the structure. I may compose the tune next or complete the lyric to a dummy melody that will be replaced by something later. The lyric is not finalized until the tune is composed. My very last step is arranging and adding chords — I'll often do a Lead Sheet first as that can point to weakness n the structure.
So, for me, the correct answer really is, "It all depends."
The late, great Burt Bacharach, when asked the same question, replied, "No one ever left a theater humming the lyrics."
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I rarely (if ever) heard of a 'hook' that was based on the lyrics of a song. I can only guess that you don't listen to pop music.
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Very interesting Mike.
Mine is similar but I usually start out humming a title and a hook..and have the first two lines or so of the chorus immediately.
And I can feel the groove and tempo in my bones.
Then the steps are very similar.
Final chords come last.
The Bacharach quote is great.
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We are cheating ... please don't send the poll officers for us. Answer: Neither For us soul stands over all. No lyric or groove sans soul works for us. If you want to punish us for cheating you can ask us to define soul. J&B
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos are here on our website.
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For me (primarily a bass player and guitarist) . . . Lyrics is the key. Most of my favorite songs "have something to say" or make me feel something (watch the video for Craig Morgan's "This Ain't Nothin'" or Todd Snider's "You Think You Know Somebody" or even "E" by Matt Mason for examples). I also have a friend (a singer I have been in several bands with) who hates what he calls my "story songs" and he's all about the guitar and instrumentation and doesn't care if the lyrics are 20 words repeated here and there.
That said - There are songs like "A Thousand Teardrops" by Shadowfax or "One Of These Days" by Pink Floyd that, while completely devoid of lyrics, still managed to make me feel something . . .
~Russell~
Last edited by Sawmill Music; 06/08/23 08:45 AM.
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Bud and Janice, I used to have a group called Family of Soul and we looked like Earth, Wind and Fire...except for me, the mascot. Suffice it to say, I have been in the Temple of Soul. And I have never left. Word.
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I rarely (if ever) heard of a 'hook' that was based on the lyrics of a song. I can only guess that you don't listen to pop music. 100%
Cheers
rayc
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"I rarely (if ever) heard of a 'hook' that was based on the lyrics of a song."
Really?
Police/Sting, Bob Marley, U2, RHCP and thousands of others had/have earworm lyric based hooks.
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"I rarely (if ever) heard of a 'hook' that was based on the lyrics of a song."
Really?
Police/Sting, Bob Marley, U2, RHCP and thousands of others had/have earworm lyric based hooks.
“When I think back on all the crap I learned in high school, it’s a wonder I can think at all.” Still my favorite opening line ever. There are a couple thousand from Stephen Foster, James Brown, The Beatles, Buddy Holly etc. vying for second place, I suppose. I didn’t think much of the rest of Kodachrome® but that first line caused me to run down to Tower Records and buy There Goes Rhymin’ Simon in 1973. It wasn’t the music.
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You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I fully realize both are important of course.
For this experiment I wanted to see if any songwriters felt that the music primarily inspires, drives and shapes the lyrics, or if it is the other way around.
For me, the music drives and shapes the lyrics once I have the hook, title and some of the chorus.
Just curious about other people's process.
As for the soul part I almost feel that goes without saying, for what I do. It is all about soul. The soul is what writes the lyrics really, not me.
It does not come from my head it comes from my soul.
This is an interesting exchange. Thanks for sharing.
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"I rarely (if ever) heard of a 'hook' that was based on the lyrics of a song."
Really?
Police/Sting, Bob Marley, U2, RHCP and thousands of others had/have earworm lyric based hooks.
I guess different people think about different things differently. The hook that gets my attention and is far more catchy for me is a musical hook. Of course there are lyrical hooks. To each his own. I just stated my own opinion. I didn't state what other opinions should be, nor that any other opinions were questionable. Some guessed that I don't listen to pop music. They only guessed, and would actually be 100% wrong.
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Audio Track,
Right. That was the point. I think we all know both are important I just thought it would be interesing to have songwriters say which one is the primary driver for them, if they had to make a choice.
For example, Elton John has said (and demonstrated) that he can write a song to a telephone book or cookbook, but is still glad he has Bernie Taupin.
It was just an exercise, because I am interested in the different processes.
Thanks for your contribution.
Listeners are different of course.
If someone were to ask me what the most memorable, airtight, unforgettable, most catchy opening hook of all time is, if I could only pick one, I would say, without hesitation:
Walk this Way.
Opening Riff.
Aerosmith.
#2
Opening Piano Riff.
Tiny Dancer.
Elton John.
The list after that goes into the thousands.
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