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#774775 - 08/24/23 12:01 PM
[Band-in-a-Box VST and Pro Tools/AAX DAW Plugin (Windows)]
Duration difference between DAW and BIAB
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Registered: 03/26/17
Posts: 23
Enthusiast
Registered: 03/26/17
Posts: 23
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Good evening Gentlemen..
As a test using Reaper:
DAW BPM to 120,
DAW plugin also to 120
I create a 4 bar piece of music (PWPOWER.STY)
Start = 1
End = 4
Chorus = 1
Lead in = Not selected
Ending = Not selected
I generate the 4 bars in the DAW plugin, then drag to the DAW. In the DAW, I expect the music to start at bar 1, and finish at bar 4. However, looking at the waveform in the DAW, it's clear that the music does not stop exactly at bar 4 but 3/16ths before. Does anyone know why?
3/16ths before does not sound a lot, but if we extrapolate this to the length of a typical song then the changes of each chord do not lign up with the beat/time position markers in the DAW.
Thank you for any insight.
_________________________
Don't force it, use a bigger hammer..
BIAB 2023 | STEINBERG UR22 | RODE NT1 | GRETSCH G5420T | REAPER DAW
WIN 10 PRO 64-BIT | OFFICE 365 | INTEL CORE I3 3.30GHZ | 12GB RAM | 2 X 2TB HDD
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#774778 - 08/24/23 12:10 PM
[Band-in-a-Box VST and Pro Tools/AAX DAW Plugin (Windows)]
Re: Duration difference between DAW and BIAB
[Re: StaffsLebowski]
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Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 19532
Loc: Hamlin NY
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Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 19532
Loc: Hamlin NY
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Exactly where does the music stop in BiaB? If it stops at bar 5 then in your DAW it will stop at the end of bar 4. If the music stops 3/16ths before bar 5 then it will stop exactly like that in your DAW. That has been my experience when dragging and dropping from stand-a-lone BiaB to my DAW.
_________________________
Texting for seniors - ROFLACGU = rolling on the floor laughing and can't get up. BYOT = Bring your own teeth. BTW = Bring the wheelchair.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software and hardware
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#774788 - 08/24/23 01:22 PM
[Band-in-a-Box VST and Pro Tools/AAX DAW Plugin (Windows)]
Re: Duration difference between DAW and BIAB
[Re: StaffsLebowski]
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Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 10707
Loc: Wauconda
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Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 10707
Loc: Wauconda
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OK, I did just what you said and I guess you are right, but I am not sure that there is any problem with this. The four downbeats are on the 1 of each of the four chords just like it should be.
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_________________________
Dan, BIAB2023, SoundCloud Win11, i7(12thGen), 32GB, 1TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD), 2TB Libraries, 1 TB(WD-Black), 2TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD)Data, Motu Audio Express, Keystation 61, SL88 Studio, Reaper
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#774795 - 08/24/23 03:23 PM
[Band-in-a-Box VST and Pro Tools/AAX DAW Plugin (Windows)]
Re: Duration difference between DAW and BIAB
[Re: StaffsLebowski]
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Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 1543
Expert
Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 1543
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I have asked 100 times to fix this !
I notice it when using 2 Plugins, say if you set the first to 4 bars with no ending then set the second one to start sync on bar 5 with no count-in.
When you do this you get a jerk on the last beat of bar 4 as it goes into bar 1 of the second Plugin.
You don't get a seamless join unless you add an extra bar and turn it off with volume automation or delete it off when dragging in.
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#774814 - 08/24/23 09:53 PM
[Band-in-a-Box VST and Pro Tools/AAX DAW Plugin (Windows)]
Re: Duration difference between DAW and BIAB
[Re: StaffsLebowski]
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Registered: 03/26/17
Posts: 23
Enthusiast
Registered: 03/26/17
Posts: 23
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Hi,
Take a look at the attached image. The tempo in my Reaper DAW is 130 BPM. The tempo in the BIAB DAW plugin is 130 BPM, so the music exported from the plugin should end at bar 5, but it ends a 1/16th note before. You can see at 4.4 on the Tempo Line that the drum (track 3) is on the correct beat it's just that it ends before it reaches bar 5.
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Edited by StaffsLebowski (08/25/23 12:38 AM)
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#774818 - 08/25/23 03:24 AM
[Band-in-a-Box VST and Pro Tools/AAX DAW Plugin (Windows)]
Re: Duration difference between DAW and BIAB
[Re: StaffsLebowski]
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Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 1543
Expert
Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 1543
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Biab does the same thing, if you set it to 4 bars without an ending Biab tries to soften the ending so it's not as abrupt. Same deal with the Plugin as it's using Biab in the background to generate the tracks. As I said I have showed this to PG so many times over the years. You just need to add the extra bar then bar 4 will play all the way, then delete the last crappy bar, this is easy in Reaper. There should be big changes to the Plugin soon hopefully before December release, that should fix all this. https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=774106These are the original solo sections from a Biab track. Any section I can extend or shorten the original playing. If you watch the video where you have the gaps you can manually merge so there's no stop, you can't do that with a consolidated wav or in Biab now how it is: Reaper-RT-Solo-Extend.mp4 >MusoCity: If you could do the same in Biab/RealBand/Plugin as I can do in Reaper with the track sections it will further improve Biab to allow for more creativity control
Agreed, and this is something planned for BB2024 (and BiaB plug-in w/DAWS like Reaper that support these track sections). This will open up lots of additional options when customizing solos and other tracks. Below is Biab set to 5 bar with no ending. The top tracks are out of Biab and the bottom are the Plugin, Biab is actually even shorter, but if you cut on the start of bar 5 it's fine.
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#774819 - 08/25/23 03:35 AM
[Band-in-a-Box VST and Pro Tools/AAX DAW Plugin (Windows)]
Re: Duration difference between DAW and BIAB
[Re: musocity]
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Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 1543
Expert
Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 1543
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If I inject the Biab track section you can see: Zoom++ 
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#774821 - 08/25/23 03:50 AM
[Band-in-a-Box VST and Pro Tools/AAX DAW Plugin (Windows)]
Re: Duration difference between DAW and BIAB
[Re: musocity]
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Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 1543
Expert
Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 1543
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If I just use 4 bars and inject the section are correct but if I drag render them they cut off. Zoom++  Zoom++ 
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#774827 - 08/25/23 06:44 AM
[Band-in-a-Box VST and Pro Tools/AAX DAW Plugin (Windows)]
Re: Duration difference between DAW and BIAB
[Re: StaffsLebowski]
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Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 10707
Loc: Wauconda
Veteran
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 10707
Loc: Wauconda
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Something is off here. In the past 5 years of using the BIAB-VST I have never run into this issue.
I would agree this looks bad. Synchronization is critical in digital audio production and this seems to indicate things do not synch up.
After a bit of study, I feel the primary reasons I have not experienced this is in the BIAB-VST or BIAB when moving tracks to Reaper is my workflow:
1) I often have the "endings" box checked in the BIAB-VST. This totally eliminates this problem with the bars not synching. And if I don't want the ending, I would simply cut that portion of the audio in the DAW. [This is what I would recommend to the OP]
2) If I do happen to turn off endings (which I do at times), then I have never needed to immediately add additional audio following the track. So nothing has to synch with this track when it is done.
I concluded this issue as described is unique to the workflow. I have no problem with PGM adjusting this as long as they don't mess it up. For my workflow, this all works fine.
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#774843 - 08/25/23 09:20 AM
[Band-in-a-Box VST and Pro Tools/AAX DAW Plugin (Windows)]
Re: Duration difference between DAW and BIAB
[Re: StaffsLebowski]
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Registered: 03/26/17
Posts: 23
Enthusiast
Registered: 03/26/17
Posts: 23
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Hi guys,
The reason I initially did this was to have 7 or 8 individual blocks of chords. I could then arrange them in my DAW to have different chord progressions to test against a song. Of course, one could do all this in BIAB, but BIAB is slow to regenerate each time (YMMV..) and then to drag/drop into the DAW. Moving each chord around as a block in the DAW is super fast. It doesn't of course give a useable result for a final mix but it's quick when you're writing and you don't want to lose the mojo!
Thank you both for contributing, very useful info for the future..!
_________________________
Don't force it, use a bigger hammer..
BIAB 2023 | STEINBERG UR22 | RODE NT1 | GRETSCH G5420T | REAPER DAW
WIN 10 PRO 64-BIT | OFFICE 365 | INTEL CORE I3 3.30GHZ | 12GB RAM | 2 X 2TB HDD
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#774856 - 08/25/23 12:06 PM
[Band-in-a-Box VST and Pro Tools/AAX DAW Plugin (Windows)]
Re: Duration difference between DAW and BIAB
[Re: StaffsLebowski]
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Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 10707
Loc: Wauconda
Veteran
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 10707
Loc: Wauconda
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Like many of us, we find the best way to use Band in a box, is to think out of the box. 
_________________________
Dan, BIAB2023, SoundCloud Win11, i7(12thGen), 32GB, 1TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD), 2TB Libraries, 1 TB(WD-Black), 2TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD)Data, Motu Audio Express, Keystation 61, SL88 Studio, Reaper
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#774865 - 08/25/23 01:23 PM
[Band-in-a-Box VST and Pro Tools/AAX DAW Plugin (Windows)]
Re: Duration difference between DAW and BIAB
[Re: StaffsLebowski]
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Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 9730
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Veteran
Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 9730
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
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Hi guys,
The reason I initially did this was to have 7 or 8 individual blocks of chords. I could then arrange them in my DAW to have different chord progressions to test against a song. Of course, one could do all this in BIAB, but BIAB is slow to regenerate each time (YMMV..) and then to drag/drop into the DAW. Moving each chord around as a block in the DAW is super fast. It doesn't of course give a useable result for a final mix but it's quick when you're writing and you don't want to lose the mojo!
Thank you both for contributing, very useful info for the future..! You may find it faster and easier to stay in Band-in-a-Box using a feature called "Song Form". Song Form allows you to divide a song into section and then quickly reorder the sections into any arrangement you want. As seen in the screen shots below you can open the Song Form Dialog Window by selecting the Song Form icon and selecting the Song Form Dialog. The dialog window has a Help button and Video button that explain in detail how the feature works.
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_________________________
Jim Fogle - 2023 BiaB (1013) RB (Build 6) Ultra+ PAK Cakewalk - Zoom MRS-8 recorder Desktop: i7 Win 10 build 2004, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Laptop: i3 64bit Win 10 build 21H2, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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#774875 - 08/25/23 02:43 PM
[Band-in-a-Box VST and Pro Tools/AAX DAW Plugin (Windows)]
Re: Duration difference between DAW and BIAB
[Re: MusicStudent]
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Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 1543
Expert
Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 1543
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Something is off here. In the past 5 years of using the BIAB-VST I have never run into this issue.. We went through all this before in the Beta forum, you posted pics. It was the same issue with Biab and the Plugin. It's not a sync issue it just tries to end it softer but this stuffs things up if you want to use the section as a loop it's not seamless as there is a big jerk. See below I have to add the extra bar and mute it with FX bypass automation or the volume automation so I get a seamless transition. Zoom++ 
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#774876 - 08/25/23 03:35 PM
[Band-in-a-Box VST and Pro Tools/AAX DAW Plugin (Windows)]
Re: Duration difference between DAW and BIAB
[Re: musocity]
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Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 10707
Loc: Wauconda
Veteran
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 10707
Loc: Wauconda
|
Something is off here. In the past 5 years of using the BIAB-VST I have never run into this issue.. We went through all this before in the Beta forum, you posted pics. OK, you may be correct. I tend to forget almost as much as I remember about the BIAB-VST. 
_________________________
Dan, BIAB2023, SoundCloud Win11, i7(12thGen), 32GB, 1TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD), 2TB Libraries, 1 TB(WD-Black), 2TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD)Data, Motu Audio Express, Keystation 61, SL88 Studio, Reaper
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#774924 - 08/26/23 08:37 AM
[Band-in-a-Box VST and Pro Tools/AAX DAW Plugin (Windows)]
Re: Duration difference between DAW and BIAB
[Re: StaffsLebowski]
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Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 7124
Loc: Pawling New York
Veteran
Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 7124
Loc: Pawling New York
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It is realy only an issue when you end the song. as Musocity said, it softens the ending. you can always regen that bar to see what you get. using hold etc changes stuff up to. if you build your song in pieces it adds to the problem. So if the song chords needs to pause try using hold and shots type format to create that feel. other than that just let the song flow to the end.
when ever this issue causes me trouble i add a bar, and fade.
_________________________
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2022, Realband, Studio one Pro latest version, Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
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