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We’ve followed the advent and use of synth vocals via the user forum where some increasingly remarkable examples are being posted. Out of technical curiosity … Janice is a melismatic singer (note bending) and we have not yet heard an example of that with synth vocals. So the question is can a synth vocal be programmed to turn a syllable into say three continuous notes? We’ve always called this “bent note singing” (common in blues and country) but I thought folks might be more familiar with the tech term - melisma. Thanks.
Bud
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I've been working with Synthesizer V Pro since the beginning of this year and learning, and I've already posted something on SoundCloud. It's hard to replace a live singer with AI singing. I have two friends who are pretty good singers who, in all fairness, smile at my attempts. The new version of the Synthesizer (1.10.0) should be able to convert vocals in wav to midi and convert the sung text to phonemes and also convert the intonation leading of the tones (inaccurate data from me - pith deviations are more accurate). So we'll see, but it will probably take longer to perfect it to our satisfaction.
BIAB 2023,RB 2023,PTA 2023,Windows 11,Studio One PRO 5.52,Melodyne Studio 5.3.1,Sibelius 8.4.1,Acoustica 7.4.14,Notion 6,Progression 3,Harmony Assistant 9.9.5c,RX9,Ripx DeepAudio 6.4.0,Kontakt 6.8.0,DeCoda 1.3.0,Synthesizer V Studio Pro 1.90 a další.
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Hi Bud. Have a listen to the below tracks. They will give you a good insight into what Synth V can do in the hands of an expert. From my little bit of experience with Synth V, the process is similar to BIAB. That is, it's possible to get reasonable sounding things done automatically, but if you want to use the program as a tool to create audio which is then taken to a DAW and adjusted, tweaked and mixed, it's possible to get some outstanding results. Regards, --Noel
Last edited by Noel96; 10/16/23 09:04 PM.
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Thanks Noel. Those are indeed amazing presentations of Natalie. But what we hear is great vibrato and an occasional single shifting of a note. Not what we would consider bent note singing as done country wise by George Jones and done by a host of blues singers. Here's an example of Janice and what we are referring to. Something some have referred to as "too much vocal dancing."  She turns the word soul into five syllables. Soul StealerBud
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Well - that's about it - like I "can" sing, but not as well as a real singer like Janice. The singer sings concerts of 30 songs and the listeners want more. Purely theoretically, I could perform as a guest and if I sang three songs, the audience would have had enough of me (and maybe I'm still cheering for myself). Janice knows a lot of techniques and doesn't have to think about which one to use and when, and it will be good. This is not to say that Janice does not think about her singing. I think he's thinking, but quite a few levels higher than me. Some techniques I can learn, but some I can't. But I don't envy and I like to listen to them contentedly. And now to the Synthesizer. Maybe the AI in version 1.10.0 can extract more from the live singing recording and analyze and apply the AI singing better than I did in my manual work, but I don't think it will fulfill a full-fledged good live singer - in this version...
BIAB 2023,RB 2023,PTA 2023,Windows 11,Studio One PRO 5.52,Melodyne Studio 5.3.1,Sibelius 8.4.1,Acoustica 7.4.14,Notion 6,Progression 3,Harmony Assistant 9.9.5c,RX9,Ripx DeepAudio 6.4.0,Kontakt 6.8.0,DeCoda 1.3.0,Synthesizer V Studio Pro 1.90 a další.
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George Jones could turn one syllable into about 7 or 8!! Janice is quite good. I don't know how long it will take, but the way people are working on it, I would imagine in our lifetime (knowing we are all a bunch of oldies) we may see something that works. I think if you put enough time in with some of these vocal synths you could get something close. But there is soul in the human voice that no machine can emulate ... yet. Similar to the eyes in the computer gaming world. They look good but they are missing something and it is the soul of a living being I believe, so they still look "lifeless"
My wife asked if I had seen the dog bowl. I told her I didn't even know he could.
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We’ve followed the advent and use of synth vocals via the user forum where some increasingly remarkable examples are being posted. Out of technical curiosity … Janice is a melismatic singer (note bending) and we have not yet heard an example of that with synth vocals. So the question is can a synth vocal be programmed to turn a syllable into say three continuous notes? We’ve always called this “bent note singing” (common in blues and country) but I thought folks might be more familiar with the tech term - melisma. Thanks.
Bud Here's a short excerpt for your enjoyment. It's a bit tricky because it's not easy to analyze by ear from/to which notes Janice bends in which time. I guess with tools like Praat it's way less work, but if you'd write a new song you would have to do it by ear anyway. And my voice is not bluesy. And the processing chain is different. But you get the idea: Link: Janice ft. Natalie - Soul Stealer
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We’ve followed the advent and use of synth vocals via the user forum where some increasingly remarkable examples are being posted. Out of technical curiosity … Janice is a melismatic singer (note bending) and we have not yet heard an example of that with synth vocals. So the question is can a synth vocal be programmed to turn a syllable into say three continuous notes? We’ve always called this “bent note singing” (common in blues and country) but I thought folks might be more familiar with the tech term - melisma. Thanks.
Bud Here's a short excerpt for your enjoyment. It's a bit tricky because it's not easy to analyze by ear from/to which notes Janice bends in which time. I guess with tools like Praat it's way less work, but if you'd write a new song you would have to do it by ear anyway. And my voice is not bluesy. And the processing chain is different. But you get the idea: Link: Janice ft. Natalie - Soul StealerWell that was interesting! Thanks for doing that. So Janice makes an appearance with Natalie. There is a bit of sliding on your selected phrase for sure but, for example, Janice's word "soul" at the end of V1 is one syllable turned into five. We have no idea what the notes are as Janice makes it up on the go. And often she sings each verse or chorus somewhat differently. Her vocals are nearly always one take and I've never even looked at one of her vocals in a pitch editor -- she might make it explode! Vocal jamming might be a good term. We can't even imagine how you can program in individual notes for those synths. Janice can read music as she played clarinet in high school in the 70's but sight reading, etc., is something we never use for our music creations. Janice just now commented that after reading your response she is even more impressed by the effort it must take for your creations. Melismatic singing is prevalent in a lot of blues and some jazz. And even some of the famous big band singers (which Janice listened to in childhood) would do it on occasion and as mentioned above the country singer George Jones made it his signature. We played in bluegrass bands for years and melismatic phrasing is also used by some artists of that genre. So she is steeped in it. Thanks for your interest, Bud
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So this is becoming more and more interesting...
A Question - because I know little about this stuff...
I don't know how the synth voices work or are programmed, but...
If one took Janice's vocal and loaded it into Melodyne - to show where the notes are/go would that give you the data you need to perfectly recreate that note-pattern in the voice synth?
Just curious.
Of course, if you had a Janice vocal, what more could you need???
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Yes, this is a very interesting thread.
FYI - I do know that EastWest vocal programs with the Word Builder can preform Melismatic singing, however they are no wheres near the quality of those synth voices that are being used here.
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
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There is a bit of sliding on your selected phrase for sure but, for example, Janice's word "soul" at the end of V1 is one syllable turned into five. It's not that much work, so here we go: Janice ft. Natalie - Soul Stealer V2'Soul' was tricky, I couldn't find one of the notes because it's too short. 'Stealer' sounds decent to my ears. You're welcome, Bud. And, I learned a lot along the way
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So this is becoming more and more interesting...
A Question - because I know little about this stuff...
I don't know how the synth voices work or are programmed, but...
If one took Janice's vocal and loaded it into Melodyne - to show where the notes are/go would that give you the data you need to perfectly recreate that note-pattern in the voice synth? I own Melodyne, but I did it by hand because it was more fun and I wanted to understand what Janice was actually doing. The notes themselves would be correct, but the intonation would need some refinement. For a complete song, though, I would probably use Melodyne. Of course, if you had a Janice vocal, what more could you need??? That's what Bud said 
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There is a bit of sliding on your selected phrase for sure but, for example, Janice's word "soul" at the end of V1 is one syllable turned into five. It's not that much work, so here we go: Janice ft. Natalie - Soul Stealer V2'Soul' was tricky, I couldn't find one of the notes because it's too short. 'Stealer' sounds decent to my ears. You're welcome, Bud. And, I learned a lot along the way Now that is impressive indeed … Janice just said Natalie was her fav synth singer! Throughout the conversation we neglected to mention the number of melismatic Motown singers. Reckon Natalie will be doing duets with Sam Cooke before long! Again, thanks for schooling us on the power of the technology. Bud
Last edited by Janice & Bud; 10/13/23 11:37 AM.
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You can do melisma in either Synthesizer V or Ace Studio. It is easy but not necessarily quick if you want it to sound stylistically authentic. There are several ways to do it. 1) Play the notes in midi, or program them in, and have several notes for one syllable but put a dash in the lyrics (-) on all the extra notes and it will continue the syllable with the new notes. Another way is to play one note and cut it up where you want the pitch to change and manually move the pitches. A third way is to hand draw the exact pitch curve you want, sliding anywhere, not just to exact notes but anywhere in between, which is necessary in country, blues, rock, jazz or any style really. A fourth way is to sing the part with the melisma yourself and let the program copy your pitch curve. Ace Studio has the ability to do this right now, so I just ran a few seconds of George Jones into Ace Studio, and instantly, (about 20 seconds later) it gave me this: George Jones sung by Ace Studio That was played and sung entirely by one of Ace Studios synthetic voices, and it could have been programmed by hand to do the same but instead I let the program borrow GJ's pitch curve. It not only copied the notes but also the lyrics, but it would need a bit of tweaking to get everything right. Synthesizer V will soon have, in its next update, the ability to copy pitch curves from an audio input, and since it has better sounding voices, I would wait for that if I really wanted this feature. Instead of using George Jones, you can sing your own vocal, and slide around as much as you want. The advantage is that a girl can sing in any key and it can play it back in a man's voice and key, or vice-versa. The first track I tried using Synthesizer V, using Natalie, was programmed by hand drawing the pitch curves, and sounds quite human to me: Synthesizer V Natalie - Crazy
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Bud, I'm not in the same league as BD Thomas. Thanks a lot for the link. That helped enormously. I've spent the last couple of days have a play around. In theory, The tools are present in Synth V that would allow a user to shape notes any way that they want. That said, I'm not sure that Synth V is yet responsive enough to nail all the nuances of Janice's performance. As the program presently stands, and in my raw-beginner novice's opinion, it would require a significant amount of manual input to to shape notes in a way that begins to resemble Janice's singing. I have no doubt that Synth V will grow as the years pass, just like BIAB has. In fact, in many ways, from my perspective, Synth V is like BIAB in that it is a program that allows me to get an audio file of a vocalist. I then take that audio to Reaper and shape it in exactly the same way the I shape the audio files I get from BIAB. I'm sorry that I can't be more helpful right now but as I gain more experience, I'll see if I can solve this very interesting problem Regards, --Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
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So this is becoming more and more interesting...
A Question - because I know little about this stuff...
I don't know how the synth voices work or are programmed, but...
If one took Janice's vocal and loaded it into Melodyne - to show where the notes are/go would that give you the data you need to perfectly recreate that note-pattern in the voice synth?
Just curious.
Of course, if you had a Janice vocal, what more could you need??? Hi floyd. Synth V is essentially a piano roll editor. The notes and timing of the melody are represented as rectangles on the piano roll.The only difference is that words or syllables are entered into the piano roll's rectangles. Synth V then uses the piano roll to get the pitch of the note and the syllables to construct the shape of the vocal sound. A non-Dreamtronics manual is below if you want to have a look through it. https://manual.synthv.info/Here is a list of phonemes for the various sounds. https://pdfcoffee.com/synth-v-english-phonemes-list-pdf-free.htmlSynth V automatically determines the phonemes that will produce a syllable. Sometimes, though, it is better to override this with a manual phoneme. So to answer your question, Yes, Melodyne would analyze the vocal and convert it to a MIDI file. This MIDI can then be read into Synth V and will give the pitch and the timing of the notes. Once in Synth V, the notes' pitches and timings can easily be modified by dragging. Someone would then need to add the words or parts of words to those pitches. Adding lyrics is actually quite quick since it can be done in blocks of notes as well as single notes. The basic version of Synth V is available for free use and the "Lite" voices can be installed to experiment with. The "Pro" version of the software uses AI and the voices are a little more versatile (from what I understand). The free voices are available at the link below. https://resource.dreamtonics.com/download/English/Voice%20Databases/Lite%20Voice%20Databases/I hope that all this helps in some way. I'm really loving playing around with it. I'll post my Natalie and Kevin duet in the next couple of days so you can have a listen. --Noel P.S. Apologies if you know all the above. As I was unsure what to tell you, though, I thought it wise just to post it all
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
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BD Thomas and Floyd Jane - there may be some confusion as to what Melodyne can do in relation to Synthesizer V. It only does MIDI. If you convert a vocal to MIDI in Melodyne, especially if there is melisma and slides and pitch bends, you get a very messy file in MIDI which Melodyne will move every note to the nearest note it thinks it is, based on a 12-tone scale. But a real singer, especially the way Janice and Bud wants, has more nuance in between the 12 tones than quantizing to exact pitches. Synthesizer V will then take the MIDI file from Melodyne and make up its own pitch curves, which will sound nothing like the original, and you would have to adjust it by hand for hours. Melodyne is able to measure the pitch curves, but it cannot export them to Synthesizer V because that is not part of the MIDI protocol used by Melodyne (which could theoretically use pitch bend, but Synthesizer V may still not import it.) Anyway, you will not get from Melodyne the words, which you will have to type into Synthesizer V, but it is very cumbersome with a human vocal because there will be several notes for each syllable and MIDI is not great for that.
However, both Ace Studio (now) and Synthesizer V (very soon in next update) can do a much better job, because they import not just the notes, but the actual pitch curve (for slides and bends and melisma) and also the lyrics. This new feature, advertised by Dreamtonics recently, will eliminate the need for either Melodyne or Pratt/Hatori, which people have been using until now. It works reasonably well now in Ace Studio, but I recommend waiting until the next version of Synthesizer V, which promises to be more versatile in this area, and will be really useful for what is wanted (ie to sing like George Jones, and others.)
Last edited by ThomasS; 10/14/23 03:10 AM.
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You can do melisma in either Synthesizer V or Ace Studio. It is easy but not necessarily quick if you want it to sound stylistically authentic. There are several ways to do it. 1) Play the notes in midi, or program them in, and have several notes for one syllable but put a dash in the lyrics (-) on all the extra notes and it will continue the syllable with the new notes. Another way is to play one note and cut it up where you want the pitch to change and manually move the pitches. A third way is to hand draw the exact pitch curve you want, sliding anywhere, not just to exact notes but anywhere in between, which is necessary in country, blues, rock, jazz or any style really. A fourth way is to sing the part with the melisma yourself and let the program copy your pitch curve. Ace Studio has the ability to do this right now, so I just ran a few seconds of George Jones into Ace Studio, and instantly, (about 20 seconds later) it gave me this: George Jones sung by Ace Studio That was played and sung entirely by one of Ace Studios synthetic voices, and it could have been programmed by hand to do the same but instead I let the program borrow GJ's pitch curve. It not only copied the notes but also the lyrics, but it would need a bit of tweaking to get everything right. Synthesizer V will soon have, in its next update, the ability to copy pitch curves from an audio input, and since it has better sounding voices, I would wait for that if I really wanted this feature. Instead of using George Jones, you can sing your own vocal, and slide around as much as you want. The advantage is that a girl can sing in any key and it can play it back in a man's voice and key, or vice-versa. The first track I tried using Synthesizer V, using Natalie, was programmed by hand drawing the pitch curves, and sounds quite human to me: Synthesizer V Natalie - CrazyImpressive indeed. The GJ file definitely shows the creation of melismatic phrases. While the tech is way beyond us we can imagine how this could be tweaked into an excellent impression. Crazy is one of Janice's fav songs and she smiled throughout noting how good it was and saying there were very few notes, mostly short ones, that she felt weren't quite there. But she also said were she not totally focused on it and so familiar with it she could be easily fooled. High praise from her! Thanks for posting these. Bud
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I wish it were easy to post images to this forum...  There's an option where you can draw the pitch curve directly onto the piano roll. The pitch will go wherever you draw it. Overshoot the note, spend time a couple of semi-tones above, do a long glissando down to a different note, bend in and out of a couple notes, whatever. Easy-peasy. Making it sound good while sliding around? That's a bit harder. 
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Synth V can do multiple syllables and it can do note bending as I call it or using several notes across one syllable.
I have a few basic note bends in a couple of my songs. Nothing really crazy like 5 or 7 notes.... IIRC one of them spans 3 notes.
It all comes down to how well you can work with the details. How accurately you place the notes, and are willing to tweek it to get it right.
I have melodyne and I've been looking for a straightforward method to input the notes to Synth V. Melodyne doesn't currently do a very good translation from audio to midi. It just doesn't work well enough. I guess it would be possible to use Melodyne to help get the notes and then editing SV manually. So I have to use my midi keyboard and play the melody of the singer which doesn't lend well to the slurs in a live singer. But that is fixable note by note in SV.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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