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I understood that the reference to the number 1 chord was referring to the "first chord displayed in the table, i.e. the chord at the top of the list".


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Originally Posted by Gordon Scott
BTW, in Britain we have an expression "That's not cricket", referring of course to the game not the insect, and it means "not playing by the spirit of the game".

I never understood that game. Being an old baseball catcher I can't relate to a game where every pitch has to bounce in the dirt.

Just think of all the white key goodness in the key of C! You get C, Dm, Em, F, G... great key. I asked a pro jazz piano player (Miss you Cecil Ramirez. RIP amigo.) why Db is so popular. His answer was something I was never aware of or even considered. He said he loves Db because most of the keys you play in Db are black keys and they are easier to play by touch because they stand up. NEVER did that even cross my mind. And a few others agreed so I'll accept that as truth.


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Originally Posted by AudioTrack
I understood that the reference to the number 1 chord was referring to the "first chord displayed in the table, i.e. the chord at the top of the list".

But then how is it F?


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Originally Posted by eddie1261
Originally Posted by Gordon Scott
BTW, in Britain we have an expression "That's not cricket", referring of course to the game not the insect, and it means "not playing by the spirit of the game".

I never understood that game. Being an old baseball catcher I can't relate to a game where every pitch has to bounce in the dirt.
I think few people really understand all the "laws" of Cricket. We do, though, understand enough to enjoy it. A proper test match takes five days, which might be considered excessive, and sometimes I puzzle over how the final score works out.

FWIW, I don't understand American Football. Does the ball even matter? laugh

Originally Posted by eddie1261
... why Db is so popular.
Oh yes ... and all the black notes are also pentatonic, so what's not to love about it?
Hmm, well, not much tension, so we'll probably not stay there....


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Originally Posted by Bass Thumper
Originally Posted by MarioD
Mr. Halloran did not blunder, however he could have been less blunt and given more explanation.
Mario, I will respectfully disagree that Mr. Halloran did not make a blunder and I’ll explain in a bit.

But let’s zoom out. We had just come off of a nice cordial, harmonious, professional and engaging discussion here
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=102870&Number=781164
where you, Gordon and especially Dan participated in a chat about minor chords. Mr. Halloran was (thankfully) nowhere to be found. I, and I’m sure others learned a lot in that discussion.

Fast forward about a day to this thread where I wanted to solidify and extend my new-found chord decomposition knowledge. In this thread my goal was to have folks confirm or deny my table of Dom 7 chords.

My question was simple, clear and to the point: “Does this table make sense?” [Scroll to the top and see it].

The 1st reply was from Mr. Halloran; he said “No. The #1 chord of a Dominant C7 is F, not C. C7 is the #5 chord ” He also said “You would benefit by learning a little chord theory.”

1. Eddie then says “Huh . . . his C is exactly right.”
2. AudioTrack then says “The number 1 chord of Thumper's chart certainly looked correct to me.”
3. I then did a Google “C7 stands for a dominant seventh chord, spelled C E G Bb. Specifically, it is a major triad (C E G) with an added minor seventh (Bb)”
4. Notes then says “So the dominant 7th chord uses the major scale triad C E G and adds the minor 7th, Bb”

Btw, for C7 my table shows C E G Bb which agrees with each of the 4 sources above.

So how is it that my table doesn’t make sense as claimed by Mr. Halloran ???
Once again, is Mr. Hollaran now smarter than Google and the other three?

Yes, that was a good conversation about minor chords.

Yes your chart made perfect sense. As mentioned previously what is a #1 chord? If you are talking just chords then yes it is the #1 chord. If you are talking about chord progressions and the key signature is F then the C7 is the 5th chord and F is the #1 chord. I believe that was his point, however bluntly posted.

This brings up a couple of problems:
1-Chord numbering leads to these kinds of problems, as indicated via a number of other threads.
2-Asking for theory help on any forum can be problematic. Without a basic understanding of music theory it can lead to total confusion, much like this thread. Although I don't like the title of those dummy books they do contain great information. Maybe this Music theory for Dummies book will help build a solid music theory foundation:
https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Music+Theory+For+Dummies%2C+4th+Edition-p-9781119575528

Originally Posted by Bass Thumper
This is why I use the terms greener, adolescent and blunder. If my table didn’t make sense, others here with credentials would have so stated. Indeed, if you think my table makes no sense, do tell why. I respect people who speak the truth.

FWIW, he is right about something, I would benefit by learning a little chord theory. But equally true is so would he, as well as written English and fact checking.

The solution to this is for him to refrain from blundering up my posts in the future; hopefully he will agree.

As for the “Extract Audio From Silent Videos” article, I read it and watched the video.
I fail to see how that is relevant to the conversion algorithm that RealNetworks uses in RealPlayer.
Are you saying that MIT, Microsoft and Adobe also worked on RealPlayer?

No, I am saying the terminology of RealPlayer is very misleading.


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Originally Posted by Matt Finley
I think I know some music theory and I have no idea what Mike meant.

In your chart, I would only suggest that you need to be consistent with flats and sharps and use the enharmonic spellings. This may well lead to E# instead of F, for example, or even a double flat etc.

The way I learned it, to spell a triad, you always skip a letter. So it’s either C# E# G# , or perhaps better, Db F Ab
Thanks for the input Matt.
If you have no idea what Mike meant, imagine where I am on his comment crazy

Your input on the enharmonic spellings is the kind of value-added feedback I was hoping to recieve. It sounds like there is nothing structurally wrong with my table, which is good confirmation for someone like me who is just learning this stuff. So I will ignore Mike's "No" and replace it with a "Yes". But enharmonically/symbolically there are some issues; got it.

Brain 1 says "Fix those enharmonic issues because it will pay dividends later"
Brain 2 says "No problem dude, when you pick up your bass and jam, all is well if you can find those notes on the fretboard"
Maybe (for me) the best table would have both enharmonically correct symbology and "simple" symbology (no E#, Cb, ##, etc.)

Based on your input, Eddie's table with Dan's correction and my table are both enharmonically wrong because both have simple symbology. Can you point me to an enharmonically correct table?

I also notice that Eddie made a neat connection to the circle of fifths that might bring further insights if I do some drilling.

Here is my table again for easy reference.

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Originally Posted by Matt Finley
I think I know some music theory and I have no idea what Mike meant.

In your chart, I would only suggest that you need to be consistent with flats and sharps and use the enharmonic spellings. This may well lead to E# instead of F, for example, or even a double flat etc.

The way I learned it, to spell a triad, you always skip a letter. So it’s either C# E# G# , or perhaps better, Db F Ab

Matt, correct me if I'm wrong but I was taught technically notes must be inline with the chord and key signature. I know that was a long time ago but in a sharp keys all notes outside the key signature must be sharps; I know that has changed. So the notes should be C#, E#, and G# and not Db, F, or Ab, however I would prefer to see Db, F, or Ab.


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Originally Posted by Gordon Scott
Originally Posted by eddie1261
I still want to know what “The number 1 chord" is supposed to mean.
I think that what he means is that it's the '1' chord to which a dominant 7 would reasonably, but not necessarily, be expected to resolve.

Two obvious points here:

1) It would have been better if that had been made clear in the first place, rather than a bunch of us trying to decipher a short, perhaps clumsy, sentence.

2) BassThumper was expressly asking for feedback to help him firm up on some of his chord theory, so "you would benefit from a little chord theory" is perhaps not an entirely helpful comment.
Yes Gordon +1 on both of your points. Especially point 2 . . . . I am benefitting from a little chord theory by way of Dan's Music Theory 101 Course which so far has been tuition free laugh
Which is OK because when he needs help on the hyper-geometeric statistical distribution or the finer points of the 2-parameter Weibull, I'm at his beck and call smile


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Originally Posted by eddie1261
The standard joke used to be "Just play everything in C to avoid those black keys." And then up comes a dominant 7th and blows that whole theory up.
Make no mistake, I didn't select Dom 7 chord spellings to examine because I'm some kind of "arsonist" that wants to blow things up. I'm just a struggling hobbiest that once wrote a song with such chords, liked the sound and want to play better bass. I need to move beyond root-fifth.


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Originally Posted by Gordon Scott
Originally Posted by Gordon Scott
I think that what he means is that it's the '1' chord to which a dominant 7 would reasonably, but not necessarily, be expected to resolve.
... which also conflicted with the purpose of the table, which was to check BT's understanding of the notes in the chord, not the notes in the scale.
Didn't I make a mistake like that recently somewhere else in these fora blush
Once again Gordon, you are spot on.
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You understand everything that is going on here.


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Originally Posted by AudioTrack
I understood that the reference to the number 1 chord was referring to the "first chord displayed in the table, i.e. the chord at the top of the list".
This is why good written English is important in forum settings . . . unless of course you speak Swheli smile in which case English is not too important.


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Originally Posted by eddie1261
I don't know if you ever tried what I once suggested about learning the neck. Most people learn to fret from the nut until they hit the body. That has a place for learning scales. But if you learn the neck in a "planar" fashion at an angle. In your case, on a 4 string bass, your first note on an open string on the top string is a G. Find every G on every string all the way to the 15th fret on the 4th string. And work on playing G after G after G as fast as you can. That's how you learn to not play everything based around the 3rd fret. Then work on playing intervals and patterns in every key and in every position on the neck. About 95% of the bass players I ever knew played almost nothing but root notes and in the same place on the neck. So to relate to the dominant 7 that was the topic, using C as the example, play C E G Bb Bb G E C, so walk up the chord and back down. Over and over, faster and faster. Then move your hand up the neck and find the next position and do it again. Also remember that you don't have to play all the notes in the same octave. You can play C3 E2 G2 Bb3 or whatever. That adds flavor.

Also watch THIS VIDEO and pay close attention to Victor Wooten explaining "wrong" notes. Watch it with whichever brain you want, but try to focus on the message. It's great stuff by one of the best out there. It will help you with "flavor". Try hard to use those scales and such and try to not turn into a boring "root notes only" bass player. You are allowed to use 3rds and 5ths. It's in the rules!!
With all the activity in this thread I almost missed this one.
I'm sure this is good advice. I'm beyond only the root. With any song I compose I can pretty much do root-5th-octave in time with the drummer across the chord progression.
My next level is to decompose each chord in the progression into it's constituent notes (hence the chord spelling table above) and then using some or all of these notes plus their octaves to build pleasing bass lines that keep time with the drummer and that are not overly repetitive or boring. So constructing bass lines is primarily what this is about.

Eventually I'd like to get so good at this that when I see E7 on the chord sheet for example, that my brain instantly knows E G# B & D, then my fingers know where those notes are (in more than 1 location) and my sense of timing would tell me which note to play and when so that I'm supporting the groove in a way that I'm always ready and predicting the upcoming chord. Finally, there's the matter of notes that will transtion you from one chord to the next. It's a lifetime journey and it's fun. But I have to keep the growth going; right now stagnation or plateuing is not an option.


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Can someone please define, in simplest linguistic form, what the #1 chord is with no relativity to a key. #1 of what? The first (#1) note in a scale? If that is the case, the #1 chord in C, being C, means the #1 chord is C.

Mario then said " If you are talking about chord progressions and the key signature is F then the C7 is the 5th chord and F is the #1 chord."

Well, nobody said anything about chord progressions, and the key mentioned in the original post was C. Thus C should be the #1 chord.

Also, it would be a good thing to not use pronouns like "it".

Mario said "As mentioned previously what is a #1 chord? If you are talking just chords then yes it is the #1 chord." What is the IT you are referring back to? If we are talking scales as the base to create chords, we are talking notes at that point, way short of chords having yet be created. This is why I am so confused by the #1 chord thing.

Again, someone please define #1 chord if that term does NOT mean "The chord created with the first note of the scale as the root note." I can't see any way that F would be the #1 anything in the key of C. That comment was is the first reply after the OP and I have been trying since to get a definition of what "the #1 chord" is. Very confusing.


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Originally Posted by eddie1261
Can someone please define, in simplest linguistic form, what the #1 chord is with no relativity to a key. #1 of what?
I'll have a go. I think we're probably all, or at least mostly, agreed that Mike's comment was confusing".

BTW, I pretty sure you know the following and have just been confused by Mike's wording.
The use of # to mean 'number' not 'sharp' probably also didn't help.

The Dominant 7 chord is the cornerstone of this.

In any major scale there is just one dominant 7 (V7) chord, it's root is on the fifth note of the scale and it wants strongly to resolve to the root of that scale. If we're in the key of C major, the dominant 7 will be the G7 and the root of the scale will be the CMaj. That V7->I move is very common indeed, precisely because it's such a strong resolution.
One of the consequences of that is that the V7 is also usually often a clue that we're about to resolve and because it's usually V7->I we already know where it's (probably) going.

Mike picked out BassThumper's C7 entry and said that the '#1' (meaning the root of the scale) was F, which is correct for a C7 progression, but BassThumper's chart was showing the notes in the chord not the notes/chords in the scale/progression.

Putting that another way:
BassThumper's table showed C7 contains notes C, E, G, Bb
Mike Halloran says C7 resolves to F.
That's true enough, but is a completely unrelated and confusing statement.

Mike seems sometimes to latch onto something and then fail to see the intended context in which that something was written.


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Originally Posted by eddie1261
Originally Posted by AudioTrack
I understood that the reference to the number 1 chord was referring to the "first chord displayed in the table, i.e. the chord at the top of the list".

But then how is it F?
I agree, I still have no idea how or why F became involved.


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Originally Posted by AudioTrack
Originally Posted by eddie1261
Originally Posted by AudioTrack
I understood that the reference to the number 1 chord was referring to the "first chord displayed in the table, i.e. the chord at the top of the list".

But then how is it F?
I agree, I still have no idea how or why F became involved.

Because of what Mike said as shown here, "Mike picked out BassThumper's C7 entry and said that the '#1' (meaning the root of the scale) was F, which is correct for a C7 progression, but BassThumper's chart was showing the notes in the chord not the notes/chords in the scale/progression."

I was trying to explain what Mike meant. I apologize for any confusion I may have caused.


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Elementary theory. You need to know the basics first.

The chord that has the same name as the key signature is the root.

So in C major, just plain old C is the rood. G7 is dominant and F is subdominant.
I = root
V7 = dominant
IV = subdominant.

I don't think they changed it.

As you go to more advanced theory, this is still not changed, more situations get added.

So if someone publishes something that conflicts with that, I just quit and move on.

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The lesson here is - Just as important as the question one asks, is who one asks. tired As a result best not to take an introductory course in Music theory from the University of PGM Forum. grin


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Originally Posted by MarioD
Originally Posted by Matt Finley
I think I know some music theory and I have no idea what Mike meant.

In your chart, I would only suggest that you need to be consistent with flats and sharps and use the enharmonic spellings. This may well lead to E# instead of F, for example, or even a double flat etc.

The way I learned it, to spell a triad, you always skip a letter. So it’s either C# E# G# , or perhaps better, Db F Ab

Matt, correct me if I'm wrong but I was taught technically notes must be inline with the chord and key signature. I know that was a long time ago but in a sharp keys all notes outside the key signature must be sharps; I know that has changed. So the notes should be C#, E#, and G# and not Db, F, or Ab, however I would prefer to see Db, F, or Ab.
True. But I'm totally lost here as to what is desired. Aren't we just making a table for quick reference to see the notes in a dominant 7th chord? Does the key of the imaginary song matter for this table?

For example, let's take just those first two lines that we were given:
C7 = C E G Bb
C#7 = C# F G# B

Well, that second line should technically be
C# E# G# B

If I could in a song, I would rather think of it as
Db F Ab Cb

and truth be told, I would consider that Cb as being B for practical purposes unless I'm writing a score. In an orchestra score, where the part may get transposed, this matters.

Finally, and I probably shouldn't mention this, I've noticed the new trend of many composers and arrangers in jazz and modern music to use no key signature at all. Everything is written in the 'key' of C. Accidentals are shown as needed on all notes. Transposed instruments also read their part in the 'key' of C. It takes some getting used to, and still spawns arguments.


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Originally Posted by Bass Thumper
Eventually I'd like to get so good at this that when I see E7 on the chord sheet for example, that my brain instantly knows E G# B & D...

First of all, know that every key has a key signature. In your example of E, immediately I know there are 4 sharps. (Again... WWHWWWH)

To make ANY 7th, think "UP one octave to the next higher root then move down 2 frets." In any key. Flat the 7th note in the scale.


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The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!

The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!

Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.

This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245

The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option

Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!

Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!

For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.

Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.

Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!

Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.

Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.

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