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Yes the original was just about the chart. Mike posted the #1 chord for C7 is F and unfortunately I tried to explain this and drove the topic in a different direction. I apologized for that.

I think this thread shows the danger of asking for theory advice from users when the OP has very little theory background. All we as users can do is guess how much the OP knows about theory. Learning is much better when one learns from a book or video and not piece meal from users IMHO. Asking questions about what they are already learning in one thing but trying to learn theory via users is another.

I would much prefer keys in Ab over G# or Bb over A#.

I think I would have a problem with a no key signature song when F, C, G, and D are always sharped. Lots of wasted ink when all one has to do is to make the key signature E. That must be a nightmare when transposing for other than C instruments.


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Originally Posted by MarioD
... Lots of wasted ink when all one has to do is to make the key signature E. That must be a nightmare when transposing for other than C instruments.
Wasted ink, yes.
Confusing to the eye, yes.
Nightmare transposing, actually no, because depending on the pitch of the transposed instrument, you win some and you lose some. If the original key is Bb and you print a part for me to play on trumpet, my part is in C.


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FWIW, I go with keeping the note letter the same, whatever that requires us to do with the accidental symbols (flat, sharp or natural) to achieve that. This conflicts a bit with Mario's system, but I'm not sure that holds firm with, for example, the outliers below. Of course in C, the key signature has no flats or sharps, so maybe we're off the hook in that case. The rule I was given was "you must not have two notes with the same letter within a chord". That would allow A instead of Bbb, but to me that feels wrong. Others may feel differently. I'm open to persuasion.

CMaj - C, E, G
CMaj7 - C, E, G, B
C7 - C, E, G, Bb
Cm7 - C, Eb, G, Bb
CmMaj7 - C, Eb, G, B
Cdim - C, Eb, Gb
Cm7b5 - C, Eb, Gb, Bb
and outliers
Cdim7 - C, Eb, Gb, Bbb
C+ - C, E, G#
C7#5 - C, E, G#, Bb
CMaj7#5 - C, E, G#, B

Last edited by Gordon Scott; 11/07/23 02:45 PM. Reason: yep ... typo

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FWIW this should explain my reasoning and vision for putting together chord spelling tables (and I have more to create).

I built a quick BiaB scratchpad file where the band is vamping on C7 so I can examine musically how this chord is constructed. Inspiration from Eddie allowed me to concieve this idea and limiting the "song" to just one chord prevents other chords (and their transitions) from muddying up the water. My bassline is limited to only the notes that make up the C7 chord and to help those interested to understand what I'm playing (and when) , I played the Bb note more busy than the other notes.

My note progression is:
C E G Bb 4x
C G E Bb 4x

Of course, there are many other permutations that could be played, this is just a starting point on this particular element of my journey.

Observation #1: If I hadn't investigated the Dom 7 chords and built my table, I would never have been aware of the Bb in this chord.
Observation #2: I really like the sound of the Bb in this context, it seems to want to resolve back to the C in a musically satisfying way.
Observation #3: In my humble opinion, every music school, music teacher and music student should have BiaB in their toolbox; what a wonderful practice and learning tool.

This is all really good stuff, I'm slowing unpacking and understanding how music works.
Thanks to all that have positively contributed to this and other threads here.

C7 Scratchpad

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I think the comment about the number one chord was thinking that the 1, 3, 5, and 7 above the columns was referring to chords for some reason, rather than scale tones which is what I and most others assumed (correctly) is what it was. The 7 should be b7 as pointed out by at least one post.


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Originally Posted by eddie1261
Originally Posted by AudioTrack
I understood that the reference to the number 1 chord was referring to the "first chord displayed in the table, i.e. the chord at the top of the list".

But then how is it F?

I think there was general confusion about what the chart was attempting to show and at least one poster found a way to say it was wrong. That is all.


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In the Chart for C7 he lists the 1, 3, 5, b7 notes under those column headings. Halloran assuming 1 meant the 1 chord for which C7 is the Dom 7th I guess? Not sure how or why he went there but he did. No big deal what he stated is true, but has nothing to do with the table presented. As far as sharps and flats, it all depends on the context for C# or Db etc. as for me as a guitar player, doesn't really matter what you call it, I know where it is and how it fits.


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Steve if you learn to play the notes to the C7 chord without using open strings you have a pattern that you can use for all other dom7 chords.
Just move the pattern up one fret and you have the C#7 covered. Up another fret and there is the D7. etc!


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Sounds like you are having fun.

Ponder this, as you have described... You are jamming over a C mixolydian appegio in the Key of F. Try adding that F to your jam. It should fit in well and you may appreciate Mikes early comment. grin


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Originally Posted by MarioD
Steve if you learn to play the notes to the C7 chord without using open strings you have a pattern that you can use for all other dom7 chords.
Just move the pattern up one fret and you have the C#7 covered. Up another fret and there is the D7. etc!
Yep, I know this.
This is one reason that I built my table the way I did . . . everything is incremented by a half-step.
And as you point out, the fretboard geometry should similarly increment (minus the open strings as you point out)


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DrDan #781484 11/07/23 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by MusicStudent
Sounds like you are having fun.

Ponder this, as you have described... You are jamming over a C mixolydian appegio in the Key of F. Try adding that F to your jam. It should fit in well and you may appreciate Mikes early comment. grin
Fun is right. But I'd rather not add in any "extraneous" notes at this time; I need to first solidify the lessons I'm learning first.
And then I'll move on to the other chord categories, dim, dim7, aug, etc. and see what golden nuggets await me there.
Got to walk before I run smile


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Originally Posted by Gordon Scott
Cdim - C, Bb, Gb
C7b5 - C, Eb, Gb, Bb

It may be my old eyes, but these 2 seem to have typos...


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Originally Posted by eddie1261
Originally Posted by Gordon Scott
Cdim - C, Eb, Gb
C7b5 - C, Eb, Gb, Bb

It may be my old eyes, but these 2 seem to have typos...
Oops ... Correcting.

Last edited by Gordon Scott; 11/07/23 02:45 PM.

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C dim is C, Eb, Gb, no? You have Bb.


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Originally Posted by eddie1261
C dim is C, Eb, Gb, no? You have Bb.
Yes, I registered that and did a second correction. You don't want to know how many Bb->Eb corrections I did even before the original post. I know where the fingers go ... actually naming the notes appears to be a bigger challenge ... Doh!

Thank Eddie.


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My brain works far faster than my fingers and I do a lot of dyslexic typing. I had even worse eyes before the cataracts were removed. I can't type. At all. I type 25 words and have to correct 8 of them.


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Eddie, in that case, you'll get a laugh out of Mario's current signature grin


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I saw that and laughed out loud!


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Originally Posted by eddie1261
I saw that and laughed out loud!
Me too. Sadly I'm one of the many older people who are now forbidden grapefruit. I like them and I miss them!

Last edited by Gordon Scott; 11/07/23 04:09 PM. Reason: Better grammar.

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Originally Posted by Gordon Scott
Originally Posted by eddie1261
Originally Posted by Gordon Scott
Cdim - C, Eb, Gb
C7b5 - C, Eb, Gb, Bb

It may be my old eyes, but these 2 seem to have typos...
Oops ... Correcting.
This is my understanding of the diminished chord spellings.

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