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100% agree with Jon and Lee
BIAB 2024, latest build.
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Unfortunately for me RTs are PGM cash cow. Out of curiosity when we say "RTs are PGM cash cow" does this mean the value in RTs is that they are a. the skilled recorded output of high quality studio musicians or b. that the software can take RTs (samples) and make them play at any tempo and over any arbitrary chord progression in a variety of styles? If both, which of the two produces the greater "cash"? I've always wondered about the specific element of BiaB that is unique or revolutionary.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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A is a given so I vote B. B is what makes BIAB unique.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Steve, what I meant was that the majority of BiaB users like and use RTs, thus PGM will keep producing them. I don't blame PGM for doing so.
If I had to choose I would take your choice A. I don't believe that RTs can "play at any tempo". Slow them way down or up and you will get artifacts.
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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If I had to choose I would take your choice A. I don't believe that RTs can "play at any tempo". Slow them way down or up and you will get artifacts. You're right, I should have said many tempos rather than any tempo.
Last edited by Bass Thumper; 12/01/23 12:47 PM.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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Unfortunately for me RTs are PGM cash cow. Out of curiosity when we say "RTs are PGM cash cow" does this mean the value in RTs is that they are a. the skilled recorded output of high quality studio musicians or b. that the software can take RTs (samples) and make them play at any tempo and over any arbitrary chord progression in a variety of styles? If both, which of the two produces the greater "cash"? I've always wondered about the specific element of BiaB that is unique or revolutionary. I love MIDI and own a ton of VSTis BUT, the single reason I have upgraded every year since I discovered BIAB in 2012 is...wait for it...REALTRACKS! The new features rarely interest me and often frustrate me by introducing new bugs I have to work around. But those RealTracks are pure magic! If they took a year and focused on improvements with no new RealTracks I would take a pass that year.
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A & B
I still love this software, and the forum...
Thanks again PGM
Bandcamp Soundcloud Win-11; BiaB-2024-latest Beta;
Cakewalk; Melodyne-5; Scaler 2; NI Komplete:
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Just a few more thoughts on the topic.
My well-meaning "provocation" (take a year off, fix all the issues), which is unrealistic for obvious business reasons, seems to imply that one has to choose between either more features or less issues / bugs / interface complexity. Such either-or choice shouldn't be the case, obviously. In an ideal world, a great product should have the ability to offer both more features over time, and a issue-free / not overly complex user experience. Now, I think most users (including myself) are happy to be patient with this non-ideal dichotomy because we realize the incredible value that BIAB offers and the incredible complexity of the program, and we realize that the two things are somewhat correlated - if BIAB was simpler, it would be easier to make it bug-free and user-friendly, but it would not provide as much value (and viceversa). But, at the same time, the two things at some point can become anti-correlated: too much complexity may actually decrease the value of the user experience. It's a fine balance to find and maintain.
So, my little provocation came from a place of true love, obviously. Just wanted to make sure that's clear.
Now, how much of that complexity do we actually "need", and who actually "needs it", that's another problem, and it's highly subjective. As an example, I don't use BIAB for learning or for composing or for mixing (unless we're talking making rough demos, which is not really mixing). I only use it for arranging, and then I do my mixing elsewhere. But that's only me, I'm sure that many others have very different needs. So, I just wonder ... how long this ambition of being a do-it-all, satisfy-them-all software can be sustained in relation to the unavoidable developing complexity and user experience complexity? At what point that increased complexity becomes counterproductive? Where is that fine balance I was mentioning above? I don't know. Maybe more specialized versions of BIAB could be imagined? (like, a BIAB version focused on learning, a BIAB version focused on producing / arranging, a BIAB version focused on composing, etc)? I'm sure that at PG have a much better idea about the direction to take in the future. Again, all these reflections come from a place of joy and love. Thank you PG for doing what you're doing. Keep it up!!
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A is a given so I vote B. B is what makes BIAB unique. A is about quality and is easy replicable in a number of ways so there's nothing unique about studio recorded audio. Studio recorded audio's draw for users to BIAB is the vast quantity and variety of instruments and audio. B is singular to how the software manipulates midi and audio, and that in turn makes BIAB so loved and at the same time, so frustrating to many. The program's complexity and difficulty is what makes it unique. That complexity and difficulty is why there's such focus to getting tracks and projects out of BIAB and into a DAW where editing, comping and manipulating tracks is easier and more familiar to many users. It's why PG Music over the years has had to focus so much on DAW integration rather than internal upgrades. The complexity and difficulty is why there's such demand in the forum to make BIAB more like a DAW. Many comments in this thread focus on making the program easier (less difficult and frustrating) and having to export to a DAW (less complex).
BIAB Ultra Pak+ 2024:RB 2024, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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I'm also a big, huge fan of BIAB. And yes, I also find bugs and problems, very often. But I still keep using and buying it because of all the amazing things that BIAB can do.
Now, having said all that, I wish that PG Music would take a sort of "sabbatical" year, for example, version 2025 would be:
- no new features (at all !!!)
- just bug fixes, interface improvements, streamlined workflow etc
- maybe (if possibile) new realtracks as usual, but that should NOT be the priority
- obviously, cheaper upgrade to the new "streamlined" version
One year to fix all the issues, streamline the interface, clean up everything. I would gladly pay for that. These are all important and valuable points to consider. The second point (above) is critically important to most users.
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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Just a few more thoughts on the topic.
My well-meaning "provocation" (take a year off, fix all the issues), which is unrealistic for obvious business reasons, seems to imply that one has to choose between either more features or less issues / bugs / interface complexity. Such either-or choice shouldn't be the case, obviously. In an ideal world, a great product should have the ability to offer both more features over time, and a issue-free / not overly complex user experience. Now, I think most users (including myself) are happy to be patient with this non-ideal dichotomy because we realize the incredible value that BIAB offers and the incredible complexity of the program, and we realize that the two things are somewhat correlated - if BIAB was simpler, it would be easier to make it bug-free and user-friendly, but it would not provide as much value (and viceversa). But, at the same time, the two things at some point can become anti-correlated: too much complexity may actually decrease the value of the user experience. It's a fine balance to find and maintain. Very well articulated, it's a fine balance indeed. The only 2 cents I would add (which is somewhat implied) is the competitor factor. With the rise of AI there has to be people "nipping at the heels" of BiaB with the idea to enable chord-progression-based computer assisted composition to be more general and less dependent on a finite set of styles. The large set of styles available in BiaB is certainly a great feature, but also contributes to the complexity. Artists will always be tweeking existing styles and creating new ones. At some point, keeping up with every new style while retaining the old ones will not be possible, hence the need for a more general solution to the problem of providing the maximum number of styles to the user.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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I'm not understanding the correlation to how the number of styles increases the complexity of the program. The number of styles has no relation or dependency to the core program. Regardless of the year version or OS version, the only difference between the different purchase versions is content. The user that purchases a pro version of BIAB has all the functions and features of the user with the Ultra Plus version. There's no difference in the operation or increase in complexity between the two programs. More choice of styles doesn't contribute to making the program more complex. PG Music could add 10,000 new styles but the program will still be the same as would be if all programs shipped with only 10 styles. Styles would still be selected, loaded and play the same. I don't see there being a maximum number of styles to users other than physical storage space. Choice is an external process of the user not an internal issue for operation of the program, Right?
BIAB Ultra Pak+ 2024:RB 2024, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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I'm not understanding the correlation to how the number of styles increases the complexity of the program. The number of styles has no relation or dependency to the core program. Regardless of the year version or OS version, the only difference between the different purchase versions is content. The user that purchases a pro version of BIAB has all the functions and features of the user with the Ultra Plus version. There's no difference in the operation or increase in complexity between the two programs. More choice of styles doesn't contribute to making the program more complex. PG Music could add 10,000 new styles but the program will still be the same as would be if all programs shipped with only 10 styles. Styles would still be selected, loaded and play the same. I don't see there being a maximum number of styles to users other than physical storage space. Choice is an external process of the user not an internal issue for operation of the program, Right? For me it's because of the chore of finding what I'm looking for. 10 styles or 10 realtracks would be easy, I'd listen to all 10 and make a choice. When it becomes 10,000 then things need to be made a lot easier. Search is irrelevant, it rarely brings up anything actually relevant because the categorisation is not only badly labelled, nothing can be properly filtered. Searching for a song title in the filter is nothing short of a joke. The problem isn't quite as bad if I just want to choose a style and be done. The problem is refining a style, changing realtrack instruments is unnecessarily time consuming and overly complex with far too many mouse clicks required, which needs to be done repeatedly. It just wears down my enthusiasm to a point I can't be bothered. For refining realdrums things are even worse. I love the realtracks, the more the merrier, but without improved functionality they just add to the already cluttered mess and everything just takes longer and wears down my enthusiasm even more. Some of the VST instruments are becoming so good that if the BIAB interface doesn't improve then I'm finding less reason to bother firing it up. I only complain because I love the software, nothing else compares to what it does. With each upgrade I still live in hope of design improvements but it never happens, I've pretty much lost faith in it. I don't care about modern looks or dark themes, in fact I prefer the look of BIAB than all the modern trends that other software developers go for, but BIAB is just endless mouse clicks, menus and sub-menus that make no sense and everything just too unnecessarily difficult. I'm tech savvy, I use lots of software, some of it very frustrating but I alway get my head around things and put up with the bad designs and lack of common sense that seems so common in the developer world. BIAB is the only one that I often give up on and hit the exit button, it drives me to a point of insanity and too much frustration - but I really wish it didn't. If it was better designed I'd use it far more often.
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I'm not understanding the correlation to how the number of styles increases the complexity of the program. The number of styles has no relation or dependency to the core program. Regardless of the year version or OS version, the only difference between the different purchase versions is content. The user that purchases a pro version of BIAB has all the functions and features of the user with the Ultra Plus version. There's no difference in the operation or increase in complexity between the two programs. More choice of styles doesn't contribute to making the program more complex. PG Music could add 10,000 new styles but the program will still be the same as would be if all programs shipped with only 10 styles. Styles would still be selected, loaded and play the same. I don't see there being a maximum number of styles to users other than physical storage space. Choice is an external process of the user not an internal issue for operation of the program, Right? For me it's because of the chore of finding what I'm looking for. 10 styles or 10 realtracks would be easy, I'd listen to all 10 and make a choice. When it becomes 10,000 then things need to be made a lot easier. Search is irrelevant, it rarely brings up anything actually relevant because the categorisation is not only badly labelled, nothing can be properly filtered. Searching for a song title in the filter is nothing short of a joke. The problem isn't quite as bad if I just want to choose a style and be done. The problem is refining a style, changing realtrack instruments is unnecessarily time consuming and overly complex with far too many mouse clicks required, which needs to be done repeatedly. It just wears down my enthusiasm to a point I can't be bothered. For refining realdrums things are even worse. I love the realtracks, the more the merrier, but without improved functionality they just add to the already cluttered mess and everything just takes longer and wears down my enthusiasm even more. Some of the VST instruments are becoming so good that if the BIAB interface doesn't improve then I'm finding less reason to bother firing it up. I only complain because I love the software, nothing else compares to what it does. With each upgrade I still live in hope of design improvements but it never happens, I've pretty much lost faith in it. I don't care about modern looks or dark themes, in fact I prefer the look of BIAB than all the modern trends that other software developers go for, but BIAB is just endless mouse clicks, menus and sub-menus that make no sense and everything just too unnecessarily difficult. I'm tech savvy, I use lots of software, some of it very frustrating but I alway get my head around things and put up with the bad designs and lack of common sense that seems so common in the developer world. BIAB is the only one that I often give up on and hit the exit button, it drives me to a point of insanity and too much frustration - but I really wish it didn't. If it was better designed I'd use it far more often. Well said! Several of us have been saying this for a long time (and are often roundly criticized for daring to be critical of BIAB!) I hope PGM starts to realize there are a lot of their customers who feel this way. And you are def correct that the VSTis are becoming really good! I can already put together Bass, Drums and Keys with Toontrack products and the results sound as good as or better than what I can do with RealTracks! Plus the creative process is so much more fun than with BIAB. If Toontrack adds Guitar and maybe integrate these tools a bit better you have your BIAB-killer product.
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" It just wears down my enthusiasm to a point I can't be bothered."
creativity killer.
I have shown so many ways to make things easier finding what you need.
I said about RealDrums as they all have the RealDrumCharts you should have a beat finder like EZDrummer.
A Bass finder like EZBass.
Sound matching to find a style similar to an mp3 sample song.
And so you don't end up with so many RealTracks that take ages to go through, you have 1 DI guitar like "Fender Strat Rhythm" that uses a default VST FX(or user settable) without an FX version also, this will just have many style patterns you can choose from to allow change at any bar or beat giving seamless change with no tonal difference you can also change to DI guitar like "Fender Strat Soloist" with no tonal change. Clean Electric Guitar (28) could be anything whereas the Brand and Model will tell you exactly.
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Wow, the anger is wild.
It's imperfect.
Some folk as far too sanguine about "progress" and others want it all & want it last year....SwingBaby was, and sometimes still is, an example of the latter.
. Why did you mention me? I just have some difficulty learning BIAB because I can't understand English. I have always believed that BIAB is very good.
WIN10 20H2, AMD R4800H ,16G , 2T ,FOCUSRITE 2i4 MKII，Studio One,FL STUDIO
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I have to say, having a lot of styles and/or a lot of tracks (RealTracks or otherwise) is not exactly the worst kind of "complexity" to have. In fact, it's the best kind, meaning that it's good to have more options, in this case. However, it is a very good metaphor for the more general problem with the current state of BIAB. Let me explain.
Just like Musocity said, having a lot of tracks / styles is really a problem only if the search / filtering system is not helpful enough. And that is exactly where we're at now. If the had an efficient, content-aware search / filtering system, you could have a gazillion styles and tracks and you still would be able to enjoy the full benefits of such variety. But we don't. So, a thing such as "more tracks" or "more styles", which is obviously a great thing to have (and the reason many people keep upgrading every year), becomes for some (maybe many) an increasing source of frustration, because it is so time-consuming and difficult to find what you really want or need. And this is for two reasons: 1) it is objectively difficult to navigate such a wide variety of options with the current search tools 2) it becomes subjectively (psychologically) difficult to accept a sub-optimal solution, because while you search "you know" that there must be a certain track or a certain style "somewhere" in that vast ocean of possibilities that is "perfect" for your need, and more options are added, the more that feeling increases, so every year it becomes harder to stop searching and tell yourself: "ok, this is maybe not optimal at 100%, but it is good enough" (the psychologist Barry Schwartz wrote some great stuff about this phenomenon). Again, the problem is the lack of a good, efficient, content-aware search system.
Now, as I said, while I don't think that offering too many styles or tracks is the worst problem in BIAB (not even close ...), it is a good metaphor for the more general problem. What I mean is that, in its current state, BIAB provides a trillion fantastic features / options / functionalities, but not a good way to navigate such complex landscape of possibilities. This goes, really, to the very core of the problem, I think. BIAB offers too much in relation to the "navigation" tools provided. Simple as that. Add on top of that all the bugs (this morning I found a few more ... not a surprise), and you have the full picture.
Having said all that, like all of you, I can't wait to see what new RealTracks and Styles we're gonna have this year. But, frankly, I also hope to get an improved search engine (and, even more frankly, I increasingly "expect" to have that, as a paying customer: BIAB is great, but it's not cheap, let's not forget that). That would be a welcome step in the right direction - but again, that is not my main worry with BIAB at the moment; there are more basic improvements that I believe would help much more than that, but that's just my opinion of course.
Last edited by Jon Thomas; 12/03/23 01:55 AM.
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Been away a while, but it's IMO not so nice to await bugfixing until there is a new PAID AGAIN version, as usual with quite a few new bugs that won't be fixed LoL.
As loyal customer for probably over 30 years i am considering not to fall for this scheme again.
Last edited by fiddler2007; 12/03/23 02:38 AM.
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I agree 100% with Jon Thomas, but IMO the point is different. I mean, is there REALLY a reason (commercially apart) to have a new version of the program each year? It seems to me that very few programs act like this, not only in the music section…we don’t know when W12 will be out, and the same applies to Cubase 14, or Mixcraft 11, or Harrison Mixbus 10 and so on. Whenever the software houses think it’s the right time for a new version, the new version is available, regardless of the month/season of the year!
I am a BIAB user since the DOS years, and I will keep on buying BIAB, but probably it would be better if PgMusic could concentrate more on solving the GUI problems, bugs and so on, AND THEN release the new version, no hurry, even next April, or July, it doesn’t really matter. We could even have a new name, such as BIAB PRO 1, this way meaning that the PRO 2 version would be released when it is ready, no mandatory relation to December!
Sorry for my English
Alfredo
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> What I mean is that, in its current state, BIAB provides a trillion fantastic features / options / functionalities, but not a good way to navigate such complex landscape of possibilities
We are hoping to address that with years release. Hopefully this will be what you’re looking for. There have been lots of great suggestions, from those in this thread and on the forum, and we hope that we have incorporated many of them.
Last edited by PeterGannon; 12/03/23 05:55 PM.
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.
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Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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