I've been trying (a lot) and searching here in the forum, but I couldn't find a good solution. It's driving me crazy. I'm sure I'm missing something. The problem is simple. I have a frozen track (a RealTrack). I'd like to transpose it. Here's the things I tried (in BIAB 2023): 1. I transpose the whole song. All other tracks get transposed, but not the frozen track (understandably so, this is fine obviously). 2. I unfreeze the track, transpose the whole song, play back (without regenerating anything! just the normal playback) and the previously frozen track is now in the new key, but it has been regenerated (even though I never told BIAB to regenerate). This not what I'm trying to achieve, obviously. 3. I unfreeze the track, transpose the whole song, then refreeze the track (before any playback), and then play. The frozen track is still in the original state, no transposition happened 4. the following actually worked, but there's a catch (a big one): I edited the track in audio edit, selected the whole track, and applied the edit / transpose function. Done. Track transposed. That's what I wanted. However ... now my track, in the mixer, is called "Artist" (in orange color), the track name was changed to "user edited ...etc etc", so it seems that it lost its "real track status", so to speak, so I cannot treat it like a Real Track anymore (I cannot unfreeze, regenerate it, change a riff or two etc etc). It looks like an audio track, not a Real Track anymore. Pretty inconvenient. This method is ok only if I am 100% sure that I will NOT change the arrangement of that track anymore, ever. So, my question: is there a simpler / more intelligent / more convenient way to tell BIAB that I want to transpose a frozen Real Track without losing the "Real Track" status? Hoping this will help others too. Thank you!!
Really interesting question. You have given a thorough description, and you tried the solutions I remember trying many years ago. I applaud your method.
Unfreezing is necessary to transpose, as you discovered, and of course that will change the track since that's a feature of BIAB.
Since you have BIAB 2023, you now have the ability to regenerate a part of a track, and with patience, perhaps you could reconstruct a track you could live with.
It is true that once you convert it to an audio track, you will experience the mixer track color change and there is no way I know of to go backwards. For that reason, I sometimes do my transposition using another program, and that leaves my BIAB track alone in case I ever did need to revisit the song. The catch, and yes, it's another big one, is that no stereo editor can transpose much more than a full step, at best three half-steps, without introducing artifacts.
No one yet knows, but since it is a stated goal of PG Music to make the tracks more 'equal', perhaps in a future version of BIAB this problem will be addressed. By this I mean, you can transpose MIDI all day long, or change the tempo, with no problem. I don't know if it's technically possible, but a Wishlist post could ask for some way to keep the content frozen when otherwise unfreezing the track for transposition. I suggest this because frozen tracks are not saved with the song as full audio tracks; only the instructions are saved to play back the frozen track as those instructions dictate.
Hope that made sense.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
This is something Biab could be made to do as I can do this in Reaper keeping the same track sections and simply transposing each item, just so long as you are not transposing too many semitones at once to sound like userstracks do. These are actual RealTrack sections, I can add or minus any pitch shift amount to all the items: .
@Matt yes, I also hope that PG Music will add this feature in the future. After all, the advantage of the multi-riff option, which is truly fantastic, is limited by the fact that by freezing that perfect track of yours you're also committing (unwillingly) to that key. Which is a pity, as it takes away from the great flexibility of BIAB. And, as you said, since frozen tracks are not saved with the song as full audio tracks, but only the instructions are saved to play back the frozen track as those instructions dictate, then it should be relatively easy (I guess ...) to allow frozen tracks to be key shifted while not losing their "RealTrack status".
@musocity yes, just like you, I also work on a separate DAW. Transposing tracks in a DAW is not an issue. My question was about how to do that in BIAB with frozen tracks, and that is relevant (for me, at least, maybe not for others) because I really love the multi-riff function of BIAB, which naturally leads to freezing tracks, obviously. But, if we want to transpose a frozen track, then we lose the multi-riff / regenerating flexibility, and if we want to keep the multi-riff flexibility, we can't transpose. Unless there's another way that escapes me.
Anyway, as Matt suggested, this is one for the wishlist.
"My question was about how to do that in BIAB with frozen tracks"
As I said Biab can be made to do this easy enough the same way Reaper is doing it. The tracks section in Reaper are the same source sections Biab uses, Reaper plays these direct from the RealTrack folder, Biab will decompress then load them into RAM. Reaper has not created any wav files or loaded into RAM. All the wav instructions in a frozen SGU can be transposed by adding or subtracting to the current pitch shift amount thus keeping the same riffs. Are you looking to shift 1 or 2 semitones or a lot more ?
The same can be done to convert an FX guitar RT to a direct input guitar RT by just changing the path in the frozen SGU, keeping all the same riffs but DI. The same can be done with stereo RealDrums converting the same sections to Stems.
Thanks Musocity, but I don't use Reaper - I use Presonus Studio One, and I'm extremely happy with it, so I don't plan on changing. But thanks, interesting stuff though.
I'm not saying to use Reaper to do this, I can do the same in Studio One, I'm just saying you can post this in the wishlist as it should be an easy thing for PG to implement.
If I understand the OP correctly he would like to transpose without regenerating. So, if a particular RealTrack has distinctive riff components on bars 1-4, then after transposition that distinctive riff would still be on bars 1-4 but now it would be transposed.
I think this presumes that each distinctive riff component is present in all keys or that BIAB can transpose those riff components successfully.
But I wonder if that is the case. On many occasions I have noticed solo RealTracks seem to offer different riff components in different keys. I have had RealTracks producing an awesome riff but when I change key and regenerate (many times and even with Multiriff) I cannot seem to find the same distinctive riff.
Does anyone know if ALL unique riff components are available in ALL keys on ALL RealTracks?
If I understand the OP correctly he would like to transpose without regenerating. So, if a particular RealTrack has distinctive riff components on bars 1-4, then after transposition that distinctive riff would still be on bars 1-4 but now it would be transposed.
I think this presumes that each distinctive riff component is present in all keys or that BIAB can transpose those riff components successfully.
But I wonder if that is the case. On many occasions I have noticed solo RealTracks seem to offer different riff components in different keys. I have had RealTracks producing an awesome riff but when I change key and regenerate (many times and even with Multiriff) I cannot seem to find the same distinctive riff.
Does anyone know if ALL unique riff components are available in ALL keys on ALL RealTracks?
Hi John,
I was thinking this, too. I've found the same thing as you. When I change keys and generate the riffs of solos, the material is different from the original key. Even after many regenerations, the difference remains. I'm pretty sure that this is because RTs are created from blocks of audio and not on a note-by-note basis. I get the impression that the artist who recorded those blocks of audio had a set chord progression to follow and the interpretation of the chord progression was left open to the musician.
At least in my case playing horns, the key does make quite a difference in what I play because I want to stay within the range where the timbre of the horn sounds best. There are also patterns that any honest horn player will admit are easy in one key and challenging just a half-step away in either direction. Sure, we should be able to play some lick in any key but it won’t happen equally smoothly. And shift the key as little as a major third and several notes go out of range.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
I think if riffs where repeated in different keys you would not have as much different material. Allowing transpositions gives a lot more. That's what's good about Alt+F8 being able to create your riffs bar by bar or note by note. If you disable transitions this will allow a better range of pitch shifting the whole track.
This allows transpositions, some are +- 2 semitones:
<< 4. the following actually worked, but there's a catch (a big one): I edited the track in audio edit, selected the whole track, and applied the edit / transpose function. Done. Track transposed. That's what I wanted. However ... now my track, in the mixer, is called "Artist" (in orange color), the track name was changed to "user edited ...etc etc", so it seems that it lost its "real track status", so to speak, so I cannot treat it like a Real Track anymore (I cannot unfreeze, regenerate it, change a riff or two etc etc). It looks like an audio track, not a Real Track anymore. Pretty inconvenient. This method is ok only if I am 100% sure that I will NOT change the arrangement of that track anymore, ever. >>
Yes, it's possible to treat it like a Real Track again (you can unfreeze, regenerate it, change a riff or two. It is now an audio track, not a Real Track. This is a very convenient and a critical component to the function of recording audio in BIAB. It also works similar to a DAW Bus or can be used for advance recording techniques like overdubs, sub-mixes, punch-ins and bouncing tracks. Bouncing tracks in BIAB is very useful for older versions prior to the introduction of Utility Tracks.
The file has been converted to an Artist Performance File. This type of audio file has been included in BIAB since 2011 when recording audio feature was introduced. One of the components of an Artist Performance File over the years is it functions as an advanced freeze option. There are many components to the total of the feature such as automatically saving and naming the audio file, changing the Labels name and description to Orange, and most importantly for your use above, automatically Transposes the track. However, it's possible to unfreeze it, regenerate it, and change a riff or two.
A more efficient way to convert the file to an Artist Performance File without using the Audio Editor is to Right Click on the track to be converted, Select Track Actions, Save Track as Performance File (WAV, M4a) Once this is done, the track will transpose with the other tracks. To continue edit the track, such as adding riff's and regenerate, the Artist Performance File can be either erased to be replaced with an updated track or edited as an audio file.
I would vote for a future improvement to include transposing while keeping the frozen tracks. I've wanted this before from time to time, and the more people use multi-riff the more there will be complex customized frozen tracks that would be a pain to reconstruct when the program might be able to do it automatically. It seems to me that the program must actually know all the information it needs to do this, so perhaps it would not be too hard to implement. However, if the key change is too great, perhaps some of the notes or chords would be out of range in the new key, and a warning notice might be needed to make this clear that it is impossible. Still I like the idea.
Before multi-riff, I was in the habit of making many copies of the stems of a song, each regenerated, and then cut and pasted a single comp in the DAW, which I know a lot of people did. In that case, transposing wasn't an issue. But with the introduction of multi-riff, which is a real time saver, this feature-request seems like a no-brainer.
Referring back to your original post and its 4 points. converting the track you want to remain frozen but transpose can be accomplished by converting the Track to an Artist Performance File. APF's have been included in BIAB since 2011. They are very versatile and capable of much more than just transposing.
While it is best to do as much editing as possible to a track before converting, it is possible to undo, edit, erase, regenerate an APF. An existing APF can be saved, another created and this process can be repeated as many times as necessary allowing a user to revert back to any of the prior renders. Multiple APF files can be merged into a APF stem.
If I've edited a file and freeze it for more than a short temporary preservation, I consider it to be most likely in a more permanent state, my normal work flow is to convert that track to an APF. It's the safest and most advanced way possible to preserve an edited track in BIAB.
Thanks Charlie. After reading your comment, here's my experience:
- I transformed my frozen RT into an Artist Performance Track (I went back to the manual to make sure I was doing it right). Biab worked a little bit. After it was finished, I didn't notice anything new in the track. I was expecting some change of color or some other way to show me that track now as an APT rather than a regular track. Nothing like that. Ok, I said to myself. Maybe I am not supposed to know. - so I transposed the song and, obviously, my frozen track now APT was NOT transposed. In fact, I doubt that the APT transformation worked at all. Anyway, I regenerated everything again, and BIAB froze at 97% of regeneration. Voilà, not-so-rare Biab experience. We love bugs.
I tried again with the same song, same outcome. Maybe the song file is corrupted or something. So I tried with a different song. This time the RT converted to an APT correctly. And I was able to transpose it. BUT .... 1. There's a notification in the middle of my BIAB window showing "generation real tracks 94%", stuck there. I can play and do everything, but with this notification in front of my eyes, like BIAB was still regenerating (it's not - it's stuck). See picture attached. Once again, a bug. I'll add it to my insects collection. 2. Anyway, regardless of this fresh new bug, now I have my "orange", transposed Artist track. Great. Now let's say I want to regenerate (now, ideally, I may want to regenerate only parts of the track, just like a regular track, but even regenerating the whole thing would be a step forward). How do I do that? I looked in the manual, under Artist Performance Track and Regenerating. Nothing found. All right. Let me try the more common approach of "blindly exploring the jungle of options", as it is often the case with us BIAB aficionados. Here's what I found: - right click on the track, generate / select and generate real tracks (obvious, right?). Not so fast. Now BIAB wants me to select a RT to generate. But the name of the original RT has disappeared!! What if I want to regenerate my APT a month after I worked on it? BIAB should KNOW what RT that APT was generated from, right? Or should I keep a booklet in which I write down the RT from which my APTs were generated? - I'm persistent. Different route. Right click / track actions / regenerate window. Ok, I click "OK regenerate" and BIAB politely tells me that "There is no Real Track on this track. Would you like to select one?". Ok, now I am convinced that BIAB is making fun of me.
I am running out of options. And patience. I just don't see how do you regenerate APTs (and much more, as you implied in your post). I don't see it in the manual. What I see is the usual jungle of options, sprinkled with our daily dose of bugs. But I'm sure it's my fault. Would you be so nice to nudge me into the right direction? Once you have an APT, how do you go back to its original RT status? Because that is the whole point: once you have a APT, or a transposed APT, is there a way to revert it to its original RT status?
I turned my beef into a steak. How do I reconstitute my beef?
Respectfully, I think you completely miss the point. Charlie said that it's possible to regenerate APTs. I have no reason to doubt him, and I'm curious to see how it's done. Or, maybe he's wrong, like you seem to promptly assume, but let's see what he says, shall we? I imagine two possibilities: - if APTs are nothing but rendered audio, then it's impossible. It's like restoring your steak into a beef. - if APTs are rendered audio files with some attached information about how BIAB created them (which RT, which tempo, which chord / riff for each bar, plus whatever other info is needed, which must be relatively little information given the small size of BIAB song files) then yes, in theory BIAB should be able to read that information and recreate the RT that originated the APTs. It seems clearly possible to me. Maybe it's not the case yet, contrary to what Charlie says, but it is certainly possible. In fact, it seems like a desirable feature to have, as that feature would allow you to "freeze" any track, so that you don't lose all the fine tuning that you performed on that track, while knowing that once you've frozen it you can always go back and change something (like transposing, changing tempo, changing some riffs, whatever). Hope it's clear now. You have the steak, but if enough information is there then yes, you could go back to the beef - in this case.
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