PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box for Windows Do you stutter? [Resolved]

If anyone looks into this thread to see what it is about...

IF the problems I've had makes anyone hesitate to buy BIAB 2024 - DO NOT HESITATE.
This problem was (somehow) specific to my machine and the state that MY BIAB was in (basically)
And I was really frustrated.

Now that it is Resolved, I will throw my vote in with many others that THIS is a SIGNIFICANT upgrade to the program.
Game changing.

Do Not Hesitate!



And here is how that thread went......

2024 Track Window.

Sometimes (not always, but often) ANY action causes the program to hesitate and stutter (redraw?).
The slightest volume change or panning change (or anything else really) causes it.
Once in a while it doesn't happen and the program works as one would expect - goes on without a hitch.

Are there settings anywhere that might affect this?


Not enough machine?
11th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-11400 @ 2.60GHz
32 GB
Windows 10

Video card?
Or counting on OS for video?

// just a hunch
//where is BiaB running from? C: or external drive?

video: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650 SUPER 4GB GDDR6

BIAB on C: (512GB PCIe M.2 SSD)
Realtracks and Drums on D: (1TB SATA 7200 RPM HDD)

...and the only other things running at the time are Firefox and Thunderbolt (mail pgm)

A few things to consider:

Are your video and mouse drivers up to date?

Does this happen on one song or on any song?

What program(s) might be running in the background?

Unregistered plugin you are trying out?

Checked for malware?

Drivers are up to date
All songs
As I said, little else is running. Windows Defender.
I do not have any unregistered plugins.


Is NO ONE else experiencing this?

FJ,
in Task manager CPU, Memory, HD "usage" looks OK?
If yes, the easiest thing to test is to eliminate interface from the equation, switch to onboard soundchip for testing purposes with basic MME driver and see if things work as they should.

No resources are anywhere NEAR being maxed out.
Audio is set to MME. Not running the sound through an interface.

Good suggestion.

Tell us about your audio interface.

Also, to answer your question, your computer certainly does not sound underpowered for BIAB. But if you are using an audio interface with an ASIO driver, the solution might be as simple as raising the buffers in that device's driver for audio playback. For example, if it's 256, make it 512, then 1024, and compare performance.

I am willing to guess based on experience testing the new BIAB 2024 that the faster regeneration requires more CPU power than in the past, and that alone might be what is stressing your system. There are a few BIAB settings you could try. One checkbox is called This Song Has Problems. Another checkbox Disables Fast Generation. These are in the Preferences, RealTracks or Song Settings; I'm not at a computer right now to find their exact location.

Focurite Scarlet 4i4 3rd Gen.
New in the last year. I've been running it for a while.

I have never had any problems running BIAB.
I run Studio One Pro with Dozens of tracks and Dozens of hefty plugins without an problems.

If my computer is not enough to run BIAB and I need to turn off fast generation, I'd say PGMusic is going to be in a world of hurt.

You really think that is the problem?

No stutter here.

If the song is playing, pretty much every action I take causes it to stutter.
In the chord sheet (like the old days), with the song playing opening any dialog - Memo, Song Settings... Stutter. Close the dialog. Stutter. Move a window slightly. Stutter.
(rebooting did not change anything)

No, I don't. You asked if there are settings you could try. Since I don't know the answer yet, I gave you some. I am leaning more and more toward audio settings as you reveal more about your system. However, don't assume if it works for Studio One it will work for BIAB. With the exception of a lot of plugins one might have loaded in Studio One, I think BIAB now requires more computer horsepower, and I base that on the substantial improvement in song regeneration speed in this new version.

Did a Return To Factory Settings (Most).

No difference.

(well, except it set audio to WAS - which put out screaming garbage. So that is set back to MME)

a little more info.


If I run the cursor over a button - my BIAB stutters when it displays the tool tip.

FJ, I assume that you have latest BIAB patch.
Next thing I would personally try is switching to non Nvidia gpu. Usually there is Intel too.

P S. Silly question.. maybe there is a update pending computer restart?

A Windows update showed up in the middle of all of this, so I applied it. No change.

I haven't ever switched gpus. Not really something I want to start doing (or feel Should be necessary just to get BIAB running like it used to)

this problem is specific to BIAB.

The STUTTER actually happens when no music is involved. If I open any movable dialog - when I grab the top of the dialog to reposition the dialog - move the mouse and the dialog hesitates (for a while) before it follows. Only in BIAB.

running 1104

You said you have updated your mouse driver. Try a wired mouse if you are using a wireless one.

I use a wired mouse

FJ,
No stuttering here so far with update 1104.

This might be a longshot but could your CPU be running too hot and be throttling?
Make sure your chassis is not blocked by dust/debris and has unrestricted airflow, vacuum if necessary.
As a low cost troubleshoot step direct a house fan in a direction favorable to the onboard fan and see if that makes a difference.
You can also temporarily place your PC in a cooler location like a basement or garage.

Are you running on a laptop?

--Steve

Ok ...
VST issues?

Also there was a way to delete / refresh BIAB preference file...sometimes it resolves internal issues.

Andrew posted 1105 patch in another thread. Give it a try.

https://update.pgmusic.com/support/patch/bb2024_win_update_build1105.exe

Hi floyd.

I run MME and it's all going well for me. At one point during the early beta testing, I had some problems with excessive generation times that no one else experienced. My \bb folder is on a solid state hard drive. What I ended up doing was to run a Windows 11 routine called "Retrim". It's accessed through a disk's "Properties" and then the "Tools" tab. I'm not absolutely certain, but this seemed to fix the problem for me.

A couple of days after that happened, I had a power outage while I was using BIAB. When the power came back on and I restarted BIAB, the program was working very lethargically. So again, I ran the retrim option, and it definitely fixed whatever the problem was. Because I have an SSD, though, I was very reluctant to over use this program. Below are a couple of articles about retrim and why it is good for SSDs. So the moral of my story is... if you have \bb on an SSD, consider running retrim. It might fix your problem.

https://www.techspot.com/article/2600-ssd-trimming-explained/

https://www.techtarget.com/searchstorage/definition/TRIM



Regards,
--Noel

Bass Thumper’s post about dust is good. And his question about whether your computer is a laptop reminds me, have you checked the Power Settings in Control Panel? If you recently had a windows update, double check that your CPU is still at 100%. Also a windows update can reactivate devices that should be disabled, like the HD audio driver for your monitor.

Loading this changed nothing.
Thanks for the link.

Thanks for the suggestion, Noel.
I ran the retrim (been 33 days). That might have "help slightly". Now every third or fourth action (click on ANYTHING) doesn't cause a stutter. I would not call that success.

I am running on a desktop. As far as I can tell it is not dirty.

I don't know what you mean by this:
"checked the Power Settings in Control Panel?....double check that your CPU is still at 100%"

I don't find anything that show CPU % in Power Settings.

And how do you know if "the HD audio driver for your monitor" has been reactivated? What would I look for?

floyd,

Below are my Realtrack settings. If I recall correctly, I think I turned off the "Speed Up Generation of Realtracks". That might help.



Also... As an experiment, under "Song Settings", could you activate "This song has playback problems"? This will force BIAB to regenerate the song in its entirety before it starts playing. This could provide some useful insight.



Regards,
--Noel

One other thing that will help gain a bit more insight, too.

What happens when you open the song in Realband? Does everything work okay?

Thanks for the suggestions, Noel. I will try them and let you know if they help.

BUT

Seems like turning off all the things that make the program Fast defeats the purpose.
The changes that Misha made in his video all seem to happen on the fly.

I want that.


(I have not opened RealBand yet. I don't ever use it. I used to use it for harmony generation, but that has change - since 2022 - and I don;t care for the new algorithm.
And I would REALLY like my BIAB to work like everyone else's...)

And one more thought

In "Audio | Audio drivers / settings" there is an option to monitor stuttering. I have never tried this so I don't know what it does but it sounds like it's a perfect fit for your situation and that it might provide some useful information.

I totally understand what you are saying and I completely agree with you. My only interest is in finding out if something/anything helps your problem in any way or even creates a worse problem. This info would help development team home in on the problem you are experiencing. If it's bothersome to try please ignore my thoughts. I appreciate that I've probably gone overboard (There was one stage in testing when it took my "new in 2023" i7 computer 14 minutes to generate a song. I have no idea how the problem was solved. I'm just passing on the settings that I ended up with when everything was working in the hope that they might be useful to you.)

Tried that.
Still got stuttering.
No warnings.

I tried those things.
Same.

The second last thing that I did was to set my Windows sound up as shown in the image. (#3 is simply the active component when I have BIAB playing)



Up until this year, I've always run my soundcard in "Exclusive mode" because it seemed to help with older versions of BIAB. A year or so ago, though, I remembered Simon (from PG Music) saying that it's better not to use Exclusive mode. So when I was having all my problems with 2023, I turned that off. Whether it helped or not, I don't know. I'm just passing the information on as something else that I did.

The last thing I did was something that I remember Kent (from PG Music) saying a few years ago. At the time, he advised a customer to physically unplug any instruments, soundcard or MIDI connection that was connected to the computer via USB. He then said to start BIAB and reconnect things. I tried to find his post but I didn't have any success.

--Noel

Noel - I really appreciate all of your suggestions.

Those things did not stop the stutter.

Maybe I'm expecting too much.
Should I expect that every time I make a volume change with a slider (or do anything else) there will be a hesitation in the playback? Is that "just the way it is"???
I'm okay with that if that is the case. It is still a HUGE advancement in the program.

But if no one else is getting stutter - I DON'T WANT IT either....

floyd,

Have you tried both the Full-screen View? of BIAB and the Standard View? If you've been using the full screen view and switch to standard view, you will probably need to open the mixer window (near the Conductor icon). Also, have you tried (a) loading a midi-only style and seeing the problem persists, and (b) return to factory settings?

FJ,
Yes, you don't want stutter
Have you considered replacing preference file (so BIAB writes fresh one automatically)?
I don't remember from the top of my head how to do it. It is as simple as renaming one (or two) files in bb folder.
Maybe seasoned user(s) can tell you how to do that?

I agree, this is one of very special updates.

Hi Misha.

That's the ultimate when it comes to resetting BIAB. It's certainly worth a try.

Rename intrface.bbw to intrface.bbw.old and MySetup.DK to MySetup.DK.old. These files are in \bb\preferences. (Changing the extension to something like OLD will stop BIAB from loading them and force BIAB to make some new ones.)

--Noel

Noel & Misha,

Thanks for persevering. That seems to have done the trick (I have never had to use that "fix" for anything).

And thanks to everyone else who chimed in.

I'm glad that you have gotten things up and running correctly.

Not exactly. Yesterday he said he tried Return to Factory Settings, Most. This is supposed to do exactly the same thing that Noel described how to do manually. Why it didn’t work then, but did work just now, I can’t explain.

Not exactly. The difference between Most and All is only in the audio driver. We focused on the audio driver from the beginning.

I have also noticed that deleting the files can produce different results than Return to Factory Settings. RTFS possibly leaves some legacy bits somewhere that don't get reset. Deleting the files guarantees a fresh start.

Yes, since I recall we have experienced this before, I would certainly like to know the difference.

I've also noticed this. Deleting the settings files often fixes a problem that RTFS does not.

I want to bookmark this post.

Someone else posted this as a question for the developers. Let's see!

Actually, I just read the documentation (duh), and a thorough answer is there in FAQ #93. Here it is, including the list of other files that may need to be deleted. I notice several are related to plugins on the system, but nothing specifically about the audio interface:

93. How can I return Band-in-a-Box® to the factory settings?
Band-in-a-Box® 2010 or higher uses the files listed below for configuration. If you want to restore Band-in-a-Box® to the factory settings, you can delete or rename these files. The next time you launch Band-in-a-Box®, new configuration files will be created. This can help solve or troubleshoot odd and unexplainable problems you are having with the program. The files are found in the root Band-in-a-Box® folder, usually C:\bb, and can easily be found by sorting the files in the bb folder by 'date modified'.

Important: You must have Band-in-a-Box® closed when you do this, or else it won't work.

We recommend renaming the files (rather than deleting them) or saving a copy of them somewhere else on your hard drive so that you have a backup of your old configuration. For example, you could rename intrface.bbw to intrface.old. Later, if you find that you need to restore your previous settings, you can delete the new intrface.bbw file that Band-in-a-Box® will have created, and rename intrface.old to intrface.bbw. Note that Band-in-a-Box® 2009 and higher have an easier method of saving your settings, which wouldn't require you to save a copy of your intrface file. You can simply go to the Opt. menu and select Save Preferences As. Later, you can reload those preferences by selecting Opt. | Open Preferences.

An alternative way of restoring all factory defaults, is to simply reinstall Band-in-a-Box® to a new folder. One way of doing this is to rename your current Band-in-a-Box® folder to '\bb_old', then reinstall the program to the default '\bb' folder. Note that reinstalling Band-in-a-Box® to the SAME folder will not return the program to factory settings, because Band-in-a-Box® doesn't change the configuration files when you reinstall it.

intrface.bbw. This file contains most of the global Band-in-a-Box® settings in the Opt. | Preferences dialogs, and a list of the most recently accessed song and style files.

MySetup.DK. This file contains the settings in the following dialogs.:
Opt.| Preferences | Channels (default MIDI channels, patches, volumes, reverb, chorus, bank)
Opt. | Preferences | Patch Map
Opt. | Preferences | Drum Kit
Opt. | Utilities | Make an Advanced Patch Map
Opt. | Preferences | Fav. Patch
The two files above contain most of your program settings; it is USUALLY only necessary to delete those two files to solve most problem. Other settings files include:

DEFAULT.ALI. This file contains the information in the Styles | Style Aliases dialog.

BBToolBar9.INI. This file contains your main toolbar setup.

DXPluginList.ini. This file has the name and location of the DirectX audio plugins that Band-in-a-Box® has found on your computer.

DXiPluginList.ini. This file has the name and location of the DXi synthesizers that Band-in-a-Box® has found on your computer.

VSTiPluginList.ini. This file has the name and location of the VSTi plugins that you have added to your plugin list. This file won't be present unless you have added VSTi plugins.

VSTPluginList.ini. This file has the name and location of the VST audio plugins that you have added to your plugin list.

DX Settings/DefaultDXiSynth.tgs (this is in the 'DX Settings' folder). This file stores the current DXi plugin configuration.

DX Settings/DefaultDXAudio.tgs (this is in the 'DX Settings' folder). This file stores the current DX plugin configuration.

$Drumz.cfg. This file contains your Drum Window settings.

$MIDIMON.cfg. This file contains your MIDI Monitor settings.

Tuner.cfg. This file contains your Guitar Tuner settings.

F32I.BIN. This file stores the song and style Favorites window setups.

SongListTemp4.BIN. You will find this file in any folder that you created a song list for (ie, when you press the [Song] button in Band-in-a-Box®). It contains a description of the song files in that folder.

Default7BBC. [My comment: I wonder what that one does?]

BBW_Sty.LSW. Stores information about the StylePicker list (styles).

BBW_Cat.LSW. Stores information about the StylePicker list (categories).

a_Found.LS3. Stores information about the StylePicker list (other custom and third party styles found in the bb folder).

DrumFolderNames.txt. Stores information about RealDrums you have installed.

Note:

There is also a menu item within Band-in-a-Box® to return many settings to their factory defaults (Opt. | Return to Factory Settings). This will not necessarily return ALL settings to factory like deleting the files listed above will.

An easy way to find the configuration files in the bb folder is by sorting the files by 'date modified'. The configuration files will usually be the most recently modified, so will appear at the top.

Some of the files listed above will not necessarily be present. For example, if you haven't ever used the guitar tuner, you will not find Tuner.cfg in the bb folder.

"There is also a menu item within Band-in-a-Box® to return many settings to their factory defaults (Opt. | Return to Factory Settings). This will not necessarily return ALL settings to factory like deleting the files listed above will."

So... one might ask a question, what RTFS ALL button does in BIAB? if not that ^

If it (GUI menu) doesn't return ALL the settings, as it states, it should be named something else.... or do exactly what it says, closing out and restarting the program with fresh set of ALL config files.

Hmmm... that blue font is a bit tricky to read in Dark Mode. I wonder if Andrew can work some magic around this?

Trevor, I see (actually, can't see) your point. I just edited the post to make all the text black. I suppose we need some tests to see what color(s) do not translate well to the Dark Mode. For example, my address is blue on my screen, and so is my user name, but THAT blue looks bright white on your Dark Mode. It's possibly a color choice made by the individual viewer's browser, since those are links (and I had not even noticed before that my location is a link now).

And Mischa, yes, there seems to be more to this.

Matt, I agree. That's why I asked if Andrew could incorporate some magic. Some colors do translate correctly in dark mode.

The FAQ 93 included text in the original response had a font color change to [#000099]. That is what caused the issue. I'm not sure if that came from the cut/paste from the FAQ or if it was manually added to highlight the text?

Maybe the forum software can automatically invert colors when dark mode is used? It obviously does this with black.

Oh - I see. The embedded font color was preserved regardless of Dark or normal mode. Interesting! Annoying, possibly.