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Originally Posted by Notes Norton
I've been audited twice by BMI, so what I'm doing is strictly legal. What I paid for legal advice was worth it.

I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me. BMI, like ASCAP, only collects for the performances of music. They had to sell Shazam! because it was violating the terms of their Consent Decree (per the 2012 BMI annual report) — they bought it to listen to the internet and didn't shut down the other parts of it (oops!).

My last day gig was working for ASCAP's legal department. Feel free to back channel me on this. I'm quite curious as to how it happened and what they were trying to get from you.


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Back on topic:

The Real Book is published by Hal Leonard, now part of Muse Group (MG).

There are ways to obtain access it so that everyone gets paid. MG has systems in place that satisfy the courts and sub publishers — almost nobody knows about them, however. Here's a brief overview and it mentions The Real Book: Muse Group Acquires Hal Leonard . "Brief" is quite subjective—plan to take some time to absorb it all but it's well worth it.

Oh, "free" is not an option. Somehow, some way, at some point somebody must get paid. At the moment, it's through their MuseScore PRO+ subscription plan (I pay $39.99 annually)

Muse Group is bent on world domination of the music industry and they have the Dough for the Do-Re-Mi (BMI slogan from the '70s) to make a run at it. One benefit is that MuseScore, by their own admission, will have to become good. Version 4 is a step in the right direction but they have a long way to go. I expect that AI will feature prominently in version 5. They are hiring AI engineers and I don't think you have to move to Cypress to work for them (I could be wrong on this, BTW).


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Originally Posted by Mike Halloran
Originally Posted by Notes Norton
I've been audited twice by BMI, so what I'm doing is strictly legal. What I paid for legal advice was worth it.

I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me.
I know little about US copyright-related stuff ... this is a UK-related aside.

A few years back I received a 'phone call from PRS (Performing Rights Society) here in the UK. They were immediately very aggressive, telling me that my company was in breach of performance copyright on multiple counts and demanding that I agree to pay thousands of pounds a year in royalties for the future and in retrospect. The reason for that, as I eventually dragged out of them, was that playing music or a radio in the workplace, whereby other people can hear it, is considered here to be "public performance". I repeated to them five or six times that I was a consultant and that I worked alone ... there was nobody else here to hear anything I might play. They eventually and rather grumpily went away. At no point did they actually ask whether anything was played in the workplace, they just presumed.

They were trying to alarm me into paying for a licence that I did not need.
In a way, it didn't really matter whether or not it made sense, they were just after some money.

I never understood how playing public-broadcast radio in the workplace could count as an additional public performance of that radio broadcast and justify an additional licence.


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Slightly O/T I know, but this is a good point about the aggressive nature they will go to in an attempt to increase their capital.

Some years ago my company received a totally unsolicited call from an unknown firm who stated their job was to "test the quality" of our 'telephone on hold music system' and asked us to put them 'On Hold'. Clearly they were just trying to find if we were using a radio station or public broadcaster for our 'on hold' music (we weren't). Not even knowing who they might have been, we refused to assist them in any form and they went away, never heard from them again.

For others who helped them out this might have been a very different result.


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Originally Posted by Gordon Scott
Originally Posted by Mike Halloran
Originally Posted by Notes Norton
I've been audited twice by BMI, so what I'm doing is strictly legal. What I paid for legal advice was worth it.

I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me.
I know little about US copyright-related stuff ... this is a UK-related aside.

A few years back I received a 'phone call from PRS (Performing Rights Society) here in the UK. They were immediately very aggressive, telling me that my company was in breach of performance copyright on multiple counts and demanding that I agree to pay thousands of pounds a year in royalties for the future and in retrospect. The reason for that, as I eventually dragged out of them, was that playing music or a radio in the workplace, whereby other people can hear it, is considered here to be "public performance". I repeated to them five or six times that I was a consultant and that I worked alone ... there was nobody else here to hear anything I might play. They eventually and rather grumpily went away. At no point did they actually ask whether anything was played in the workplace, they just presumed.

They were trying to alarm me into paying for a licence that I did not need.
In a way, it didn't really matter whether or not it made sense, they were just after some money.

I never understood how playing public-broadcast radio in the workplace could count as an additional public performance of that radio broadcast and justify an additional licence.

I think someone was trying to scam you, brother. I'm pretty sure that the radio station has already paid


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Originally Posted by Mike Halloran
Originally Posted by Notes Norton
I've been audited twice by BMI, so what I'm doing is strictly legal. What I paid for legal advice was worth it.

I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me. BMI, like ASCAP, only collects for the performances of music. They had to sell Shazam! because it was violating the terms of their Consent Decree (per the 2012 BMI annual report) — they bought it to listen to the internet and didn't shut down the other parts of it (oops!).

My last day gig was working for ASCAP's legal department. Feel free to back channel me on this. I'm quite curious as to how it happened and what they were trying to get from you.

Bob has not responded to this, but my guess is they were looking to see if Bob was putting stuff up that they needed to collect for. Just a guess.


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Originally Posted by Byron Dickens
Originally Posted by Gordon Scott
Originally Posted by Mike Halloran
Originally Posted by Notes Norton
I've been audited twice by BMI, so what I'm doing is strictly legal. What I paid for legal advice was worth it.

I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me.
I know little about US copyright-related stuff ... this is a UK-related aside.

A few years back I received a 'phone call from PRS (Performing Rights Society) here in the UK. They were immediately very aggressive, telling me that my company was in breach of performance copyright on multiple counts and demanding that I agree to pay thousands of pounds a year in royalties for the future and in retrospect. The reason for that, as I eventually dragged out of them, was that playing music or a radio in the workplace, whereby other people can hear it, is considered here to be "public performance". I repeated to them five or six times that I was a consultant and that I worked alone ... there was nobody else here to hear anything I might play. They eventually and rather grumpily went away. At no point did they actually ask whether anything was played in the workplace, they just presumed.

They were trying to alarm me into paying for a licence that I did not need.
In a way, it didn't really matter whether or not it made sense, they were just after some money.

I never understood how playing public-broadcast radio in the workplace could count as an additional public performance of that radio broadcast and justify an additional licence.

I think someone was trying to scam you, brother. I'm pretty sure that the radio station has already paid

I agree, sounds like a scam. You own no money if you are playing a legal radio station that is playing copyrighted music as they have paid any fees required. No matter how many people can hear it.


My wife asked if I had seen the dog bowl. I told her I didn't even know he could.
falcon1az #797050 01/24/24 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by falcon1az
Thanks. They are $50. I was looking for free downloads.

You can find plenty of free stuff, and it is worth about what you are paying for it. There is really no such thing as free music of the kind you are talking about as you have seen here already. Sharing files is fine as long as they are not copyrighted songs. Otherwise it is theft plain and simple. Just do a simple google search and you will find plenty to steal.


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falcon1az #797060 01/24/24 02:10 PM
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I really appreciate all the comments.

Moderator - please delete this thread.

falcon1az #797154 01/24/24 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by falcon1az
I really appreciate all the comments.

Moderator - please delete this thread.

I don't think it works that way around here. A lot of information has been posted that others might find useful.


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etcjoe #797155 01/25/24 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by etcjoe
Originally Posted by Byron Dickens
Originally Posted by Gordon Scott
Originally Posted by Mike Halloran
[quote=Notes Norton]
I've been audited twice by BMI, so what I'm doing is strictly legal. What I paid for legal advice was worth it.

I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me.
I know little about US copyright-related stuff ... this is a UK-related aside.


I never understood how playing public-broadcast radio in the workplace could count as an additional public performance of that radio broadcast and justify an additional licence.

I think someone was trying to scam you, brother. I'm pretty sure that the radio station has already paid

Quote
I agree, sounds like a scam. You own no money if you are playing a legal radio station that is playing copyrighted music as they have paid any fees required. No matter how many people can hear it.
Not a good idea to give a legal opinion when a) you aren't a lawyer and b) you are wrong.

I'm neither an attorney nor am I practicing law: everything below is easily looked up. I did work in this field a long time.

If anyone is curious, the US Congress passed the Fairness in Music Licensing Act of 1997/1998). It lays out the rules regarding when the a radio or TV broadcast is considered a public performance and when it is not. I know them cold but it isn't germaine to this subject. Everyone thought that the PROs would howl because there were now rules while the PROs were rejoicing because now there were rules.

Great Britain and the EU have their own laws about this, too, and they are far more restrictive than the US. Again, this is easily looked up if you're curious.

Anyone remember MUZAK? They went bankrupt telling their customers that those rules would not hold up in court (oh boy were they wrong!). As a result, MUZAK was absorbed by the companies that own Sirius/XM who pay the required licensing fees and pass the cost to their customers.

Music on hold is considered a public performance. Again, there are laws and plenty of companies that can keep their customers in compliance with them.


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Originally Posted by Byron Dickens
I think someone was trying to scam you, brother. I'm pretty sure that the radio station has already paid
Sadly not, Byron.
In the UK, that is genuinely the situation.


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falcon1az #797180 01/25/24 06:37 AM
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I don't know about the UK, but I do know about the US.

There was a time, in the late 20th century, when restaurants needed an ASCAP license to play the radio.

I had a friend who owned a small, pizza restaurant. He played an easy listening radio station, at low volume, over the ceiling speakers. The ASCAP rep told him he needed to get a license and pay the subscription fees. Instead, he quit playing the radio station. The previous volume was so low, during the lunch hour, you couldn't hear it anyway.

Eventually that law was overturned, and as far as I know, now it's OK to play the radio without considering it to be a public performance. But I'm not a lawyer, so I could be mistaken about that.

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falcon1az #797251 01/25/24 01:44 PM
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I am not trying to give a legal opinion here. The Fairness in Music act has exceptions which are pretty lenient in some cases concerning size of an establishment, number of speakers etc. I have no idea how we got on to this. The main thrust is file sharing of copyrighted material is a no no unless you own the copyright and retained the rights to do so. And, it has been determined that a chord progression is not included in copyright. Melody, lyrics sure. Most recently upheld in the case against Ed Sheeran (I think this is the most recent).


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