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#799478 02/10/24 11:01 AM
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I have come to the sad conclusion that BIAB cannot play a mMaj7 chord (despite accepting the chord notation input).

This is with RealTracks.

I have done the Ctrl-F8 combination (over the bar) more than 20 times in an attempt to hear the chord played properly and not a single time was it played.
It loves to play Maj7 chords though. frown

Does anyone know the secret to getting these chords to sound in audio?


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I can only presume that they haven't been recorded in the first place. Others may know more.
Presumably not all RealTracks include every possible variation.

Last edited by AudioTrack; 02/10/24 12:16 PM.

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I think all the chords you can enter came about when Biab was just midi but then with RealTracks it would take hours an hours of recording to get all these chords.
If they get all the Playable Realtracks sfz's working well so they are matched sound wise, Biab could intelligently use these for the non-available chords in the RealTracks so extra notes could be added/removed/moved in the RealChart midi intelligently to fit the chord, this is what VST's like NI Session Guitars and UJAM guitars have, they have all the recorded playing but also have the full identical sample set recorded from the same instrument. BUT you have to get all the SFZ's up to standard so they match the sound. I suggested the other day to a user to use PRT but it said the sound did not match the pedal steel RT instrument, this is what I have found.
Going into the future RealTracks should be just Direct Input with a default FX like suggested here Multi Pattern/Style RealTracks
this will lower the amount of sample SFZ's needed as when using a RealTrack with custom PRT sections both will be Direct Input using the same VST FX this will sound match a lot better than how they do now.

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Originally Posted by musocity
I think all the chords you can enter came about when Biab was just midi but then with RealTracks it would take hours an hours of recording to get all these chords.
If they get all the Playable Realtracks sfz's working well so they are matched sound wise, Biab could intelligently use these for the non-available chords in the RealTracks so extra notes could be added/removed/moved in the RealChart midi intelligently to fit the chord, this is what VST's like NI Session Guitars and UJAM guitars have, they have all the recorded playing but also have the full identical sample set recorded from the same instrument. BUT you have to get all the SFZ's up to standard so they match the sound. I suggested the other day to a user to use PRT but it said the sound did not match the pedal steel RT instrument, this is what I have found.
Going into the future RealTracks should be just Direct Input with a default FX like suggested here
this will lower the amount of sample SFZ's needed as when using a RealTrack with custom PRT sections both will be Direct Input using the same VST FX this will sound match a lot better than how they do now.

Muso your BIAB technical level of expertise far surpasses mine so I will have to simply say, I would just be happy with whatever method is used to achieve a solution to this problem. smile


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A miracle just happened!
I can now hear a mMaj7 chord in BIAB. smile
Please read my Stylepicker Basics thread.


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I am re-opening (unresolving) this can of worms.

I never found a solution to the problem.
As I mentioned above, I was finally able to hear a mMaj7 chord while working on another problem.
But I never figured out how to get a mMaj7 chord to play on demand.

If only a PGMusic techie would step in now and say "Sorry it can't be done, we're working on it",
I would leave this alone. But until they do I will persist in trying to figure out if there's a solution.

I just finished experimenting with a bunch of RealTracks and Styles.
None of the Miles Black RealTracks worked.
None of the Mike LeDonne piano RealTracks worked.
None of the Kenny Barron piano RealTracks worked.

_JAZOR60 Organ warbling badly, BUT I could get a mMaj7 !!! (Mike LeDonne on organ)
I used the trick to fix the warbling --> Auto-fix sour notes disabled.
BUT when I did that, the mMaj7 chord disappeared !!! ARGHHH !!!!
I did not regenerate!

So in addition to still needing to resolve this, there are obviously some serious bugs happening here.


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If you mean this thread: https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=800439#Post800439
I just reread it. I didn't see anything directly related to mMaj7 chords.

In the early days of RealTracks (and yes, I go back 30+ years also, way before them), I tried mMaj7 chords and in some tracks, the piano simply laid out for any measure that had one. I reported the particular style to PG Music and they discovered an indexing problem and issued a patch that fixed it. It might be that simple. This was critical for my work since mMaj7 chords occur a lot in Brazilian jazz. I had not encountered a problem since 2009.

It is certainly likely that not every RealTrack artist may have recorded every kind of complex chord that exists, but the program apparently has algorithms to construct something in those cases. None of us users have any idea how.

You have cited a bunch of RealTracks and Styles, and you've said it appears to be inconsistent since sometimes it works. So, my suggestion is to get specific. Post a link to a song on Dropbox that demonstrates this problem every time. Let us test it. If it also fails for us, we can pass it with a nudge to the developers.


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I find for the best sounding mMaj7 chord I sometimes have to write a major + (augmented) chord a minor third higher than the root of the chord I want, and put the root after the slash. So for example CmMaj7 can be written Eb+/C and you will get the exact notes you want. Make sure the augmented is just a simple triad, with no embellished notes if the instruments likes to do that.

Try this sequence: Cm / Eb+/C / Cm7 / F7

It doesn't always work for all styles and instruments, but with regenerate you can usually get a satisfying result. I use this trick for other chords when I want to try a different voicing, putting the root I want after the slash and the upper notes as a simpler chord the appropriate interval above. So for example 1) CMaj7 > Em/C 2) Cm7 > Eb/C, C9 > Eh/C, Cb9 > Edim/C, etc. etc. Sometimes keeping the root out of the upper notes clarifies the harmony and you don't get awkward seconds or minor seconds where they don't sound good.

Last edited by ThomasS; 02/25/24 03:04 PM.
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Thanks for helping again Matt.

Originally Posted by Matt Finley
If you mean this thread: https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=800439#Post800439
I just reread it. I didn't see anything directly related to mMaj7 chords.

Yes that's the thread. In my #800564 post I mention mMaj7 working.

Quote
You have cited a bunch of RealTracks and Styles, and you've said it appears to be inconsistent since sometimes it works. So, my suggestion is to get specific. Post a link to a song on Dropbox that demonstrates this problem every time. Let us test it. If it also fails for us, we can pass it with a nudge to the developers.

OK I will get specific now.

Here's my warbling organ song to start.

Before playing the song in BIAB, make sure your settings are for Organ/Track settings/Auto-fix sour notes *Enabled*.
As is, both mMaj7 chords work!

Next, Disable Auto-fix sour notes for Organ/Track.
On my computer the mMaj7 chords are now gone!
No regenerating!
How are you making out with the chords?

Next...
Select the Organ track and then, Select RealTrack Piano #738
Generate track.
First on my system the piano notes are scooped, sliding up/down, out of phase, just sounding awful.
It is playing the mMaj7 chords correctly though.

Next, Disable Auto-fix sour notes for Piano/Track Settings.
Chords have been cleaned up, no glitching.
BUT... On my computer the mMaj7 chords are now gone!
No regenerating!
How are you making out with the chords?

Next...
Select the Piano track and then, Select RealTrack Piano #743
Generate track.
Chords are still clean, no glitching.
Because Auto-fix sour notes still disabled for track.

BUT... On my computer the mMaj7 chords are now gone!
No regenerating!
How are you making out with the chords?

Here's the BIAB file I am working with...

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/yu8crjsxzafkhy0pl84v7/Too-Late-Now4-frozen.SGU?rlkey=m5nxeow5n1ltc2nr5j9supoqy&dl=0


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Originally Posted by ThomasS
...
Try this sequence: Cm / Eb+/C / Cm7 / F7

It doesn't always work for all styles and instruments, but with regenerate you can usually get a satisfying result. I use this trick for other chords when I want to try a different voicing, putting the root I want after the slash and the upper notes as a simpler chord the appropriate interval above. So for example 1) CMaj7 > Em/C 2) Cm7 > Eb/C, C9 > Eh/C, Cb9 > Edim/C, etc. etc. Sometimes keeping the root out of the upper notes clarifies the harmony and you don't get awkward seconds or minor seconds where they don't sound good.

Thanks Thomas for your suggestion. Very interesting.

I just tried it in a few different situations.
I started with the chord progression you gave on a blank sheet and it worked nicely.

Strangely BIAB kept playing an interesting chord progression after your last chord!
And this went on for many bars until I finally stopped it.
In the old days BIAB would just keep playing the last chord over and over.

Next I opened up the problem song that I am working on. I started by playing the song as is.
This is the warbling organ song. It played the mMaj7 chords correctly.
Then, to fix the lousy-sounding warbling organ, I disabled Auto-fix sour notes for the track.
The mMaj7 chords were now gone!

Next I put in the Augmented slash chords you suggested, in my case C+/A and Bb+/G.
But they didn't work unfortunately, even after regenerating.

And finally, I copied the C+/A bar and then one before it.
Then I closed the file and started a New song.
I pasted these two bars into the new song and it played the chords correctly!
Go figure!

So long story short, it's nice to have this option (that works sometimes)
but honestly it would be a heck of a lot nicer if BIAB played mMaj7 chords on demand, every time.


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The issues you are having must have something to do with the specific realtrack you are using. As I said, some work well with the aug+/slash substitution for Mmaj7, but not all. But for most realtracks it DOES work perfectly, and in many cases a realtrack might just play the simple minor chord on Mmaj7, so it is absolutely necessary to use the augment/slash to get that chord, particularly with guitars, because I assume that it was not played in a lot of the recording sessions on guitar samples.

So if you are using Realtracks, it is essential to have this substitution in many cases. I don't know why it didn't work for you in this particular case, but to see if it can work don't regenerate the whole chart, but use multiriff regenerate (F8) on just the offending track and see if at any time it can play Mmaj7 or not. That way you can quickly keep hitting regenerate for just that chord for that insturment to see what are the possibilities.

I suggest trying this 8-bar sequence on various Realtrack styles, and compare the second bar to the sixth bar to see which is better.

Cm | Eb+/C | Cm7 | F7 |
Cm | CmMaj7 | Cm7 | F7 |

Last edited by ThomasS; 02/25/24 05:51 PM.
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Great suggestion, ThomasS.

The Brazilian composers of the 60s often wrote Cm6 in place of that F7. Gives it a more mysterious sound. [I know we are talking about the second chord, not the last]


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Originally Posted by ThomasS
...

So if you are using Realtracks, it is essential to have this substitution in many cases. I don't know why it didn't work for you in this particular case, but to see if it can work don't regenerate the whole chart, but use multiriff regenerate (F8) on just the offending track and see if at any time it can play Mmaj7 or not. That way you can quickly keep hitting regenerate for just that chord for that insturment to see what are the possibilities.

Yes I was already trying F8, more specifically Ctrl-F8 to zero in on the offending bars.
But it didn't help.

Quote
I suggest trying this 8-bar sequence on various Realtrack styles, and compare the second bar to the sixth bar to see which is better.

Cm | Eb+/C | Cm7 | F7 |
Cm | CmMaj7 | Cm7 | F7 |

I tried your chords with the following styles:

_JAZOR60 worked
_WEFT worked
_SJAZZBL worked
_JBLADEP worked
_SAVVY worked

Both the +/C and the mMaj7 worked.

Then I went back to my song. I swapped my style for _SJAZZBL (which had worked above).
It worked at first, but was giving a warped sound, just like my original organ sound (_JAZOR60).
So to fix the warped sound, I disabled sour notes for the keyboard track.
And of course I lost the mMaj7 chords. frown

So something really weird is going on with BIAB.
Specifically related to mMaj7 chords and 'disabling sour notes'.
The two just don't like each other (for me).


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Originally Posted by Matt Finley
Great suggestion, ThomasS.

The Brazilian composers of the 60s often wrote Cm6 in place of that F7. Gives it a more mysterious sound. [I know we are talking about the second chord, not the last]
Yes, any good jazz guitarist (and the Brazillians certainly are) might play a Cm6 when they see F7 on the chart. Or they might play Am7-5 (which has the same notes) because Cm6 and Am7-5 are the four upper notes of F9. When a bass is playing the chart, the combo result will be Cm6/F. Jazz guitarists who like to play all over the neck without open strings know how to play the upper part of any complex jazz chord with just with four notes, because they eliminate the root, which the bass has covered, and play the chord notes above the root. It has to do with the fact that a guitar, when you finger every note can best play four tones, not five or six (because without the thumb they only have four fret-fingers and without the pinky have four plucker-fingers.) Some big-handed guitarists can use the left-thumb to finger a fifth tone, or pluck five strings adding the pinky to the left-hand, but not all, so the four-upper-tone method of interpreting chords is quite common.

It is useful to think this way in BB, so writing Cm6/F is sometimes cooler sounding than writing F9 or F7, because it keeps the F note out of the higher voicings, which clarifies the harmony. I do this with all kinds of complex chords, because, as an arranger that is often the way we write harmony parts for sections.

Last edited by ThomasS; 02/25/24 09:57 PM.
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Thanks. I had a lot of fun when Romero Lubambo explained to me how he was doing that on my compositions. What a treat.


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I disabled sour notes for the keyboard track. ... And of course I lost the mMaj7 chords

This is "expected". The Fix sour notes / tuning feature (in Song Chords mode) will attempt to "correct" the notes on the track based on the current chord in the song. So that is why you are hearing an AmMaj7 chord at measure 18. What is happening is that 'Natural arrangements' is turned ON (which is the default) and the mMaj7 chord is getting mapped to a m7 chord in this style. The Fix sour notes is taking the Am7 chord and changing it into an AmMaj7 chord by changing the pitch of the G to G#. There are two ways to fix this.

A) Turn off Natural arrangements in the Song settings dialog.

B) Use the Auto-fix (tune) on just the first half of bar 18. I tested this with your song, and it works well. This feature in general works best for specific parts of a track rather than as a setting for the entire track. You could do something like this.
1. Turn OFF the Auto-fix track in Track Settings.
2. Use Track Actions | Copy/Move Track to copy the track to Utility track 1 where you can work on it further and preserve the original BiaB generated track.
3. Open the Audio Edit window, and highlight ONLY the first half of bar 18.
4. Click on the Edit button (in the Audio Edit window toolbar) and click Fix Tuning. Make sure Song Chords is selected and OK. This will add the G# to that bar. Repeat for the other bar of interest.


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Originally Posted by Andrew - PG Music
There are two ways to fix this.

A) Turn off Natural arrangements in the Song settings dialog.

B) Use the Auto-fix (tune) on just the first half of bar 18. I tested this with your song, and it works well. This feature in general works best for specific parts of a track rather than as a setting for the entire track. You could do something like this.
1. Turn OFF the Auto-fix track in Track Settings.
2. Use Track Actions | Copy/Move Track to copy the track to Utility track 1 where you can work on it further and preserve the original BiaB generated track.
3. Open the Audio Edit window, and highlight ONLY the first half of bar 18.
4. Click on the Edit button (in the Audio Edit window toolbar) and click Fix Tuning. Make sure Song Chords is selected and OK. This will add the G# to that bar. Repeat for the other bar of interest.

Thanks for helping again Andrew.
I don't know what computer or version of BIAB you are using, but your suggestions are not working well for me.

For fix A) it worked only for the 1st chorus, not the 2nd or 3rd !!! (742 piano)
For fix B) it didn't work at all


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Can use just use a minor chord and add the extra note in playable realtrack mode ?
Just adjust the PRT volume to match the audio level.

Last edited by musocity; 02/26/24 03:03 PM.
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Originally Posted by musocity
Can use just use a minor chord and add the extra note in playable realtrack mode ?
Just adjust the PRT volume to match the audio level.

That might be workable.
ThomasS has a good suggestion too, to use alternate chords with a slash bass note.

I'm just really surprised that workarounds or fiddling with all kinds of settings are required to
get a basic 'This Masquerade' chord happening in BIAB.
It is 2024 right?


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I'm just really surprised that workarounds or fiddling with all kinds of settings are required to
get a basic 'This Masquerade' chord happening in BIAB.
It is 2024 right?

There's just one setting: Song Settings - "Natural Arrangements".

Here's another idea that should work well, and allows you to leave natural arrangements enabled (more natural playing with longer phrases)

1. Generate the track.
2. Song Settings | Natural arrangements - disable. (but don't re-generate)
3. Highlight only 17-18 and press F8 - generate new riff for just those bars.


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