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Bluegrass/country song arrangement quandary [Resolved] #803341 03/09/24 12:41 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2018 Posts: 266 Albuquerque, NM muzikluver OP Apprentice
OP muzikluver Apprentice Joined: Apr 2018 Posts: 266 Albuquerque, NM	Hi Everyone, I'm in a quandary with the arrangement of one of my songs that I wrote six years ago. It's the first song for which I created a demo arrangement when I purchased Band in a Box in December 2018. I used the Slow Country Ballad style to do this, which gave my song a bluegrass sound because of its fast tempo (140 bpm). I eventually swapped out one of the fingerpicking guitars for a mandolin to enhance its bluegrass sound. When I shared it with my producer a little over a year ago and asked him to replace the drums and bass guitar with his own custom tracks, he suggested adding strings to the arrangement as well in place of the piano. At the time, I thought it was a good idea because I knew that the arrangement lacked something. But when I heard his arrangement, I didn't like it because the strings dominated all the other instruments and mostly eliminated the bluegrass mood and feel of the song. Though I had experimented with the fiddle real tracks in BiaB, none of them were a good fit for my song either. Several months ago, I hired a pro country female vocalist in Nashville to record all the vocal tracks for this song because the synthesized vocals I had previously created for it were also conflicting with the arrangement and making it harder for me to figure out how to perfect it. Though the vocals improved its overall sound, I still couldn't determine what the arrangement needed. A few days ago, I decided to hire a pro fiddle player on Fiverr to record a custom fiddle track to go with the arrangement. After listening to her fiddle track with the arrangement last night, I have mixed feelings about it because some parts sound good but not other parts. This morning it occurred to me that I should consider finding another producer who has more experience with the bluegrass genre than my producer has, but I wouldn't know where to begin looking for one. So, I'm in a quandary and would appreciate any suggestions and advice that you can offer. Here's a link to a folder on my Box account where I've uploaded various arrangements of my song with and without vocals: https://app.box.com/s/nnmfsrmta8thc08bzvo46y7h259q3r9v Tom Last edited by muzikluver; 03/09/24 12:58 PM. Reason: added "Bluegrass/country song" to the title Tom Levan (pronounced La-VAN) BiaB 2024 Win UltraPAK Build 1109, Xtra Style PAKs 1-11, RB 2024, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Intel Q9650 3 GHz, 16 GB RAM, 500 GB SSD & 2 TB HDD, Tracktion 6 & 7 (freebies), Cakewalk, Audacity, MuseScore 2.1 & 3.4, Synthesizer V

Re: Bluegrass/country song arrangement quandary muzikluver #803426 03/10/24 08:12 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jan 2010 Posts: 740 Sonoran Desert mrgeeze Journeyman
mrgeeze Journeyman Joined: Jan 2010 Posts: 740 Sonoran Desert	Pedal Steel. - Lots of good chording and accompaniment real tracks to select from in BIAB. That will give you a pretty good ideal Alternatively/Additionally some of the LapSteel/Resonator Real tracks are pretty good. You may find yourself mixing and matching to get the whole picture. Be careful of how steels can clobber the banjo, especially the dobro. Wait, I don't hear any banjo in there. Aside- Perhaps some clawhammer would make it nice. Old timey vice 3finger roll sometimes gives you more of what you want. The pedal steel is the string section of country music. I play a few fiddle tunes at gigs and often add a pedal steel to the banjo/guitar/bass/mando ensemble. I almost always use drums- much to the chagrin of some bluegrass purists. I listened to your first track and think you might find the steel might work well The fiddle just doesn't sound country enough to me. Sounds like a classical musician. I use a lot of volume automation in the mix to swell the steel in and out. Try a variety of real tracks, different takes. Focus on the accompanying real tracks, not the soloist. You may have to do some cutting and pasting to get it where you want it. It takes practice to keep it from getting too buy. Its a bluegrass band, not an orchestra. Anyway, if you haven't tried it, perhaps you might give it a go biab2023(Mac) Logic Pro X

Re: Bluegrass/country song arrangement quandary muzikluver #803631 03/12/24 07:20 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 9,326 Middlesex, NC Guitarhacker Veteran
Guitarhacker Veteran Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 9,326 Middlesex, NC	Cool song. I don't think it's particularly bluegrass though. More like country ballad. That said..... I've heard fiddle tracks straight out of the BB real tracks that were easily as good, if not better than the live fiddle player. The key to getting a good fiddle out of BB/real tracks is to use volume automation to pull them in and out of the mix. I rarely ever let the instruments play continuously thru the track. Aside from the Bass, and Drums and the Acoustic guitar....everything else is volume automated and only plays when it;s supposed to be playing. The rest of the time it's volume automated completely out. If you are using a DAW..... I'd recommend that you create several fiddle tracks... One being a background fiddle and the other a solo fiddle. The background can be used to drone in the background of a verse or a chorus while the solo can do fills and a quick turnaround after the second verse.... Same with using Synth V with a good female vocalist. If you have Synth V, and are willing to learn and take your time with the edits, you can get a very reasonable approximation of a live vocalist that will convince the majority of your listeners. Especially if you don't tell them it's a synth. Next aspect of the song.... it's too long. I'd suggest editing it down to the essentials and making it about 3 minutes to 3:30 minutes long. Some of the chord changes didn't feel appropriate to me. But that might just be how I expect a song to sound as I listen. The songs that go where I'm expecting them to go tend to be the ones that capture my interest. If you are going to throw in an interesting chord change, it would have to be something that makes me say... "whoa! that was really cool. " Strings are totally out of place in a bluegrass song as are drums for the purists. If you have a "producer" (not sure what that means), who suggested a string section, I'd reconsider working with them if they thought strings in a BG song would be cool. So, this has potential, but you should sit and contemplate what you want and then edit it or better yet, start a new version from scratch using what you have already as a guideline. Don't hire anybody until you have a final demo that you are completely satisfied with. And then you only hire what you absolutely can not get on your own with BB & SV. And.... run the demos past the folks here who can give you guidance on what they think before you do anything that is going to cost money out of pocket. You definitely don't want to throw money at something that is still in a state of flux and isn't a finished, ready to go, project. EDIT: If you're going bluegrass.... use only BG instruments. Bass, acoustic guitar, mandolin, fiddle, banjo. Use a BG song structure and chord progressions that are common to the genre. Styles can vary widely in the genre so you have some leeway in that aspect. Of course...all of this is simply my personal opinion. You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.

Re: Bluegrass/country song arrangement quandary muzikluver #803784 03/13/24 12:18 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Dec 2011 Posts: 14,078 GA USA Janice & Bud Veteran
Janice & Bud Veteran Joined: Dec 2011 Posts: 14,078 GA USA	Based on decades of playing in bluegrass bands I’ll add that a fiddle, mandolin and banjo in straight bluegrass play solos and rhythm in very distinctive styles. Bluegrass solos are very melodic - part of the genre. And rhythm parts are very minimalist. A fiddle rhythm and a mandolin rhythm mostly “chop” and do a bit more for fills. The banjo will also play very differently on rhythm. BiaB has excellent fiddle and mandolin solo and rhythm RT’s that can be used to create a realistic bluegrass vibe. Simply lowering the gain of a bluegrass lead for a rhythm is not heard in bluegrass and creates a busy mix. The solo banjos in BiaB are also very good. At times the rhythm ones are IMHO a wee bit busy however a little track comping can remedy that. All in all BiaB can help create excellent BG tunes unless your goal is country with some bluegrass oriented tracks - that’s another thing. Bud J&B Videos J&B Soundcloud J&B Website

Re: Bluegrass/country song arrangement quandary muzikluver #803802 03/13/24 04:20 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 21,636 Mi., USA rharv Veteran
rharv Veteran Joined: May 2000 Posts: 21,636 Mi., USA	I have so little to offer in the way of Bluegrass .. I don't even know the rules. But this one time, just for fun, I was testing Reatracks to see what would happen if I mashed a whole bunch of different styles up to create a new 'thing'. I ended up with this mess .. but all the Reatracks basically cooperated. Choosing a Grunge drum (forbidden in BG), Funk bass, mandolin, banjo, harmonica, and random other stuff ended up like this - http://bobandbarryshow.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Urbn_211024b.mp3 Lots of surprises, and they keep time well, but pretty much 'soup' if you are looking to do something in a certain genre. However BG Realtracks are in there.. /My goal above was to do something totally outside the box, and I think I succeeded (though outside the box isn't always better). //not sure if that helped anyone (or ever will) but there ya go Make your sound your own! .. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome

Re: Bluegrass/country song arrangement quandary mrgeeze #804703 03/21/24 08:22 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2018 Posts: 266 Albuquerque, NM muzikluver OP Apprentice
OP muzikluver Apprentice Joined: Apr 2018 Posts: 266 Albuquerque, NM	Originally Posted by mrgeeze Pedal Steel. - Lots of good chording and accompaniment real tracks to select from in BIAB. That will give you a pretty good ideal Alternatively/Additionally some of the LapSteel/Resonator Real tracks are pretty good. You may find yourself mixing and matching to get the whole picture. Be careful of how steels can clobber the banjo, especially the dobro. Wait, I don't hear any banjo in there. Aside- Perhaps some clawhammer would make it nice. Old timey vice 3finger roll sometimes gives you more of what you want. The pedal steel is the string section of country music. I play a few fiddle tunes at gigs and often add a pedal steel to the banjo/guitar/bass/mando ensemble. I almost always use drums- much to the chagrin of some bluegrass purists. I listened to your first track and think you might find the steel might work well The fiddle just doesn't sound country enough to me. Sounds like a classical musician. Thanks for your suggestions, but I had previously experimented with most if not all of those instruments and found them to clash sonically with the overall sound of my arrangement---especially the banjo. I also tried a few harmonica tracks and even an autoharp, but those didn't mesh well either. The fiddle seemed to clash the least, but I'm not familiar enough with bluegrass music or even with country music to create a good-sounding fiddle track in BiaB that would go with the rest of the instruments in my arrangement, so that's why I decided to hire a pro fiddle player on Fiverr who knows both genres very well. She even plays in a bluegrass band with other members of her family. However, when I hired her, I asked her to create a fiddle track that supports my arrangement without overpowering it. So, that's probably why her track "doesn't sound country enough" to you. One of the issues I've been struggling with is determining exactly which genre my song falls into with the arrangement style I chose for it in BiaB. When I shared it with my mother who loves both country and bluegrass music, she said that it's a bluegrass song. But the fiddle player I hired referred to it as a country song. After reading your post, I spent most of the day analyzing my song while I listened to the custom fiddle track with different combinations of all the instruments that are in my arrangement. In the process, I was able to determine that guitarhacker was correct when he said that it's more like a country ballad instead of a bluegrass song. And yet, it does have some bluegrass characteristics, which is why the mandola works well with the arrangement. It's just not a full-blown "foot-stomping, hand-clapping" bluegrass song, which is fine with me because none of my other songs are bluegrass songs either. Most of them are various combinations of folk, pop, rock, country, and orchestral. This is the first song I've written that ventures outside of those genres because of it's bluegrass characteristics, which is probably the main reason I've been having so much trouble figuring out how to finalize the arrangement and determining which instrument would be best suited for doing that until I realized that a fiddle would probably do the trick. But when I listened to the custom fiddle track with my arrangement and noticed that it seemed to clash at times with certain parts of the arrangement, I was baffled. That's why I decided to submit an inquiry to this forum nearly two weeks ago. When I shared the custom fiddle track with my producer at the end of a session we had later that same day, he said that it sounded fantastic "as is" with all the instruments in his arrangement (except for the strings, which he had muted). But I wasn't convinced, so I spent most of the following day (the same day you posted your reply to my OP) figuring out why and eventually realized that the fiddle track was clashing with my piano track in certain places because it wasn't upbeat enough. So, I decided to find out if BiaB had a fiddle that sounded comparable to the custom track I was evaluating and if I could use it to create a more upbeat fiddle track that I could borrow parts from to improve the custom fiddle track. My efforts were somewhat successful but took too much time to make it worthwhile except as a last resort. That's when I realized that I should go back to the fiddle player I hired and ask her for a revision that was more upbeat and had some higher notes in it. When I mentioned this to my producer and shared part of the BiaB fiddle track with him, he said that we shouldn't do that until we've perfected his arrangement using her original custom fiddle track as a base reference. So, we spent the next five days perfecting his arrangement so that she would have a much better arrangement to use as her reference for creating a revised fiddle track. She sent me her revised fiddle track two days ago, but I didn't have time to listen to it until today. I have to say that I'm very pleased with how it sounds when I listen to it with the new arrangement even though both haven't been professionally mixed and mastered together yet. I've uploaded a copy to my Box account at the link below. Let me know what you think of it. Thanks again for your comment and suggestions! https://app.box.com/s/z87yivfjead5gxux7equgaexq4jeavkr Tom Tom Levan (pronounced La-VAN) BiaB 2024 Win UltraPAK Build 1109, Xtra Style PAKs 1-11, RB 2024, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Intel Q9650 3 GHz, 16 GB RAM, 500 GB SSD & 2 TB HDD, Tracktion 6 & 7 (freebies), Cakewalk, Audacity, MuseScore 2.1 & 3.4, Synthesizer V

Re: Bluegrass/country song arrangement quandary Guitarhacker #804706 03/21/24 08:49 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2018 Posts: 266 Albuquerque, NM muzikluver OP Apprentice
OP muzikluver Apprentice Joined: Apr 2018 Posts: 266 Albuquerque, NM	Originally Posted by Guitarhacker Cool song. I don't think it's particularly bluegrass though. More like country ballad. I agree with you, but it does have some bluegrass characteristics. As I explained in my reply to mrgeeze, I really don't want it to be a full-blown bluegrass song, but I do want it to have some of the upbeat bluegrass characteristics. Originally Posted by Guitarhacker That said..... I've heard fiddle tracks straight out of the BB real tracks that were easily as good, if not better than the live fiddle player. The key to getting a good fiddle out of BB/real tracks is to use volume automation to pull them in and out of the mix. I rarely ever let the instruments play continuously thru the track. Aside from the Bass, and Drums and the Acoustic guitar....everything else is volume automated and only plays when it;s supposed to be playing. The rest of the time it's volume automated completely out. If you are using a DAW..... I'd recommend that you create several fiddle tracks... One being a background fiddle and the other a solo fiddle. The background can be used to drone in the background of a verse or a chorus while the solo can do fills and a quick turnaround after the second verse.... I use automation, too, but mostly for drums and any lead instruments. As I also explained to mrgeeze, I'm not familiar enough with bluegrass or country music to create a good, pro-level fiddle track in BiaB. That's why I hired a pro on Fiverr to create a custom track for me. Check out the new fiddle track she created for the new arrangement at the link at the bottom of my reply to your comment. Originally Posted by Guitarhacker Same with using Synth V with a good female vocalist. If you have Synth V, and are willing to learn and take your time with the edits, you can get a very reasonable approximation of a live vocalist that will convince the majority of your listeners. Especially if you don't tell them it's a synth. I have the the original Synth V and the new Synth V Studio, but I only use the original version to create scratch vocal tracks for my songs so that I can give them to pro-level vocalists that I hire to sing my songs because it's too time-consuming for me to create vocal tracks using Synth V Studio. Plus, the program has a steep learning curve. Originally Posted by Guitarhacker Next aspect of the song.... it's too long. I'd suggest editing it down to the essentials and making it about 3 minutes to 3:30 minutes long. Some of the chord changes didn't feel appropriate to me. But that might just be how I expect a song to sound as I listen. The songs that go where I'm expecting them to go tend to be the ones that capture my interest. If you are going to throw in an interesting chord change, it would have to be something that makes me say... "whoa! that was really cool. " I read what you said to my producer, and he agreed with what you said about it being "too long." But he suggested that I cut the second verse when we're done producing it to create a "radio edit" version, which will be about 4:15 long instead of 5:05. That's about as short as I can make it without re-writing the entire song and cutting out important parts of the lyrics. He also agreed with what you said about the chord changes. In fact, he had mentioned the same thing to me the night before you had commented on my post. So, we reviewed all the chords over the phone and thought that we could eliminate about fifteen chord changes until he played through the song afterwards and realized that we had to keep some of the chords after all because the song didn't sound right without them. In the end, we eliminated a Bm chord near the end of each verse and a Bm and Bsus chord at the end of the last chorus. We also changed a F#m chord in the middle of each verse to an A chord, and we added an A chord on the last pickup note at the beginning of each verse. We also eliminated one 2/4 measure in the middle of the first two verses. These changes made the song flow better and sound "tighter." Originally Posted by Guitarhacker Strings are totally out of place in a bluegrass song as are drums for the purists. If you have a "producer" (not sure what that means), who suggested a string section, I'd reconsider working with them if they thought strings in a BG song would be cool. I agree, and I'm sure he would agree as well. But he probably suggested strings because he didn't view this song as a bluegrass song when he first heard it. Originally Posted by Guitarhacker So, this has potential, but you should sit and contemplate what you want and then edit it or better yet, start a new version from scratch using what you have already as a guideline. Don't hire anybody until you have a final demo that you are completely satisfied with. And then you only hire what you absolutely can not get on your own with BB & SV. And.... run the demos past the folks here who can give you guidance on what they think before you do anything that is going to cost money out of pocket. You definitely don't want to throw money at something that is still in a state of flux and isn't a finished, ready to go, project. EDIT: If you're going bluegrass.... use only BG instruments. Bass, acoustic guitar, mandolin, fiddle, banjo. Use a BG song structure and chord progressions that are common to the genre. Styles can vary widely in the genre so you have some leeway in that aspect. Of course...all of this is simply my personal opinion. Thanks for your advice! I've been thinking about this song for nearly six years and pretty much know what I want now since I hired someone to create a custom fiddle track to complete the arrangement. That was the only instrument I experimented with in BiaB that seemed like it would work. Every other instrument I tried just didn't mesh well with the other instruments and with the overall vibe of the song. Hiring a professional country singer to record all of the vocal tracks also helped a lot. Check out the new arrangement with the new fiddle track and let me know what you think of it. Thanks again for your input! https://app.box.com/s/z87yivfjead5gxux7equgaexq4jeavkr Tom Tom Levan (pronounced La-VAN) BiaB 2024 Win UltraPAK Build 1109, Xtra Style PAKs 1-11, RB 2024, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Intel Q9650 3 GHz, 16 GB RAM, 500 GB SSD & 2 TB HDD, Tracktion 6 & 7 (freebies), Cakewalk, Audacity, MuseScore 2.1 & 3.4, Synthesizer V

Re: Bluegrass/country song arrangement quandary Janice & Bud #804707 03/21/24 08:58 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2018 Posts: 266 Albuquerque, NM muzikluver OP Apprentice
OP muzikluver Apprentice Joined: Apr 2018 Posts: 266 Albuquerque, NM	Originally Posted by Janice & Bud Based on decades of playing in bluegrass bands I’ll add that a fiddle, mandolin and banjo in straight bluegrass play solos and rhythm in very distinctive styles. Bluegrass solos are very melodic - part of the genre. And rhythm parts are very minimalist. A fiddle rhythm and a mandolin rhythm mostly “chop” and do a bit more for fills. The banjo will also play very differently on rhythm. BiaB has excellent fiddle and mandolin solo and rhythm RT’s that can be used to create a realistic bluegrass vibe. Simply lowering the gain of a bluegrass lead for a rhythm is not heard in bluegrass and creates a busy mix. The solo banjos in BiaB are also very good. At times the rhythm ones are IMHO a wee bit busy however a little track comping can remedy that. All in all BiaB can help create excellent BG tunes unless your goal is country with some bluegrass oriented tracks - that’s another thing. Bud Thanks for your comment! As I mentioned in my previous two replies, I view this song as more of a country song with bluegrass characteristics because the bluegrass genre is out of my songwriting scope. One of the difficulties I've been having is determining how much of a bluegrass sound this song should have. But I think my producer and I have finally figured that out since we had a custom fiddle track to work with as a reference. Check out the new arrangement he created with the new custom fiddle track and let me know what you think of it from a bluegrass genre perspective. https://app.box.com/s/z87yivfjead5gxux7equgaexq4jeavkr Tom Tom Levan (pronounced La-VAN) BiaB 2024 Win UltraPAK Build 1109, Xtra Style PAKs 1-11, RB 2024, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Intel Q9650 3 GHz, 16 GB RAM, 500 GB SSD & 2 TB HDD, Tracktion 6 & 7 (freebies), Cakewalk, Audacity, MuseScore 2.1 & 3.4, Synthesizer V

Re: Bluegrass/country song arrangement quandary rharv #804708 03/21/24 09:04 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2018 Posts: 266 Albuquerque, NM muzikluver OP Apprentice
OP muzikluver Apprentice Joined: Apr 2018 Posts: 266 Albuquerque, NM	Originally Posted by rharv I have so little to offer in the way of Bluegrass .. I don't even know the rules. But this one time, just for fun, I was testing Reatracks to see what would happen if I mashed a whole bunch of different styles up to create a new 'thing'. I ended up with this mess .. but all the Reatracks basically cooperated. Choosing a Grunge drum (forbidden in BG), Funk bass, mandolin, banjo, harmonica, and random other stuff ended up like this - http://bobandbarryshow.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Urbn_211024b.mp3 Lots of surprises, and they keep time well, but pretty much 'soup' if you are looking to do something in a certain genre. However BG Realtracks are in there.. /My goal above was to do something totally outside the box, and I think I succeeded (though outside the box isn't always better). //not sure if that helped anyone (or ever will) but there ya go That actually sounded pretty cool! I think the right word for what you created is "fusion." Thanks for sharing it. Tom Levan (pronounced La-VAN) BiaB 2024 Win UltraPAK Build 1109, Xtra Style PAKs 1-11, RB 2024, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Intel Q9650 3 GHz, 16 GB RAM, 500 GB SSD & 2 TB HDD, Tracktion 6 & 7 (freebies), Cakewalk, Audacity, MuseScore 2.1 & 3.4, Synthesizer V

Re: Bluegrass/country song arrangement quandary muzikluver #804789 03/22/24 03:49 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 21,636 Mi., USA rharv Veteran
rharv Veteran Joined: May 2000 Posts: 21,636 Mi., USA	I just call it 'tinkering' .. There is something about it I thought was pretty cool too, but I don't have any idea where it would fit, or in what application it may work .. maybe a catfishing TV show theme or something <grin> / that's a pretty competitive market from what I hear //yes I am Fusion at heart .. I think it just might help us all get along better /// we called our first gig band (high school era) the Fusicians <giggle, but true> Make your sound your own! .. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome

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"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."

"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."

"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."

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