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All. ive put the following in the off topic forum to give an idea of the challenges faceing music app developers…. i get the many many user needs etc etc re pg products working with many different non pg products and standards …but please allow me to comment having worked for many years on pretty big difficult industry system apps. (not music creation apps.).with many zillions lines of source code. ie give you a taste of the developer side of the fence trying to keep a large base of users happy. A trick I used with some users was to actually sit them down with the devs and show them actually what is involved on the dev side of the fence. (includeing CEO's who often said 'oh my goodness i never knew…and never gave me flack again…lol.). lots of people like the aforementioned CEO's often just dont know whats involved. 1..a basic problem for a developer is if a dev implemented all the competing user wishes the app would be a massive exe. Thus there is a problem re running such an app on an old clunky pc that might not have sufficient resources. the problem for pg being not everyone has custom built for recording studio pc's with intel i9 or xeon or threadripper processors costing much moolah....ie thousands. i would love to have one of these but choose instead to treat my ever patient wife occasionally as she treats me so wonderfully in our life together. https://www.adkproaudio.com/audio-v...duZfH6SYoamv_lUB-jzFb1VcxXRoCom8QAvD_BwEonly very affluent users could afford such. most pg users i'm sure are running run of the mill pc's costing under 1k that they probably also use for non music creation apps and which havent been optimised for music production. (see my tips in the tips forum re using a pc for music production and thus why i created the tips.) in addition… 2..as an app grows and grows, maintenance becomes a huge issue. its sorta like if I have…lol…a couple of relatives over for xmas i have a place for them to sleep and i can maintain them with a few meals…BUT…if i had too many relatives at xmas i would be unable to look after them food wise and they would have to sleep in the garden…lol....not forgetting also many relatives might not get on with each other plus after a short time i would be kaput financially…lol. 3..now let's talk about a major problem for a dev like pg interfacing with other companies apps whose products pg has no control over. and this is a huge issue we faced in industry. the BASIC PROBLEM is the dev like pg has to REACT if suddenly the other company changes things. or even the standards change in the industry. this can really complicate things as, in order to keep the user base happy in a constantly changing tech world often the dev is in constant react mode. Then of course there are the resource issues and the cost of keeping up with industry standards different groups of users would like pg products to interface with. Seriously, it's a nightmare for a dev. been there and done that…lol. What happens if the OS changes ? etc etc. In summary it's a challenge for any developer. it's sorta like when my wife and i sit down at xmas and try to figure out an affordable way to keep the various local and distant friends and family happy with their presents ... .lol. So what to do ? one has to compromise. just the way life is. I hope the above gives a smattering of the issues a dev like pg faces. I invite anyone to take a few programming courses like C++ and assembler and how to program dsp routines etc etc and you will see after many months trying to code a music app that its actually rather amazing that pg have managed to bring their products this far and the work involved. it gives one a respect for what a dev like pg has achieved. its remarkable frankly. i'm just a user like all here…but maybe you might comment on the following idea ive proposed to pg in the past. re keeping the user base happy…as follows.. 1..pg post a sticky list of all the major top 30 user wishes frequently asked for then… 2..users can vote re order of priorities. for example i want better audio/midi editing in the new fab bb tracks view…but other users might have a different priority. democracy at work…lol. I hope I make some sense. I wish all the best. silly old ex dev om.
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 03/27/24 02:27 AM.
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"its actually rather amazing that pg have managed to bring their products this far"
This is so true, especially since it is based on really old code. IMHO BiaB is built like a house of cards, thus one must be very careful adding code or the entire house will collapse. Other companies have successfully rewritten their programs and I believe it is time for PGM to do the same. I'm sure it would be extremely difficult but it can be and really should be done. YMMV
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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+1.
It would be very useful to see the major top 30 user wishes frequently asked for and their current ranking order.
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(includeing CEO's who often said 'oh my goodness i never knew…and never gave me flack again…lol.).
lots of people like the aforementioned CEO's often just dont know whats involved. Ohh ... Amen to that! There sometimes seems to be a perception that developers just pick the Lego bricks, clip them together, job done. Managing complexity and change can be a shockingly large part of the whole process. Fully and rigorously testing that complexity can become impossible.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40.
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IMHO BiaB is built like a house of cards, thus one must be very careful adding code or the entire house will collapse. Other companies have successfully rewritten their programs and I believe it is time for PGM to do the same. I'm sure it would be extremely difficult but it can be and really should be done. YMMV A house of cards?? Well I certainly hope that the coefficient fo friction between those cards is adequate to sustain the applied forces for the foreseeable future. If a complete re-write is decided by Peter and his team to be the optimal business/technical decision, this should not require a department of programmers painstakingly writing code from scratch. I remember a conversion tool called Fable that could convert Fortran code to C++. I'm guessing there are tools available to convert from whatever language BiaB is written in to whatever new language is desired. I'm not saying that it would be push-button easy but tools should exist to help with this. In fact, one option could be to subcontract the whole job to a software company or University with a protective clause in the contract that says "If after extensive testing of your conversion we find that it fails our quality control and reliability standards, then you will recieve TBD% of the full amount." Yes, I am a graduate of the Bass Thumping School of Advanced Legal Studies 
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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I remember a conversion tool called Fable that could convert Fortran code to C++. I'm guessing there are tools available to convert from whatever language BiaB is written in to whatever new language is desired. My department decided to port our COBOL programs to the Windows Server environment. The COBOL code was transliterated into C++, and then had to be manually optimized, because it turns out that operations that are fast on the mainframe aren't so fast on the PC. I pity the developers that need to maintain that code, because "translate" and "transliterate" aren't the same thing. And if you're wondering how we ported over the JCL, congratulations on knowing far more about the mainframe environment than anyone needs to know anymore. 
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RUSTY ..
wow ..in no way was my op aimed at you.
SINCERELY .
I'll try and amend my post if i can.
ONCE AGAIN IN NO WAY WAS THIS AIMED AT YOU
OR ANYONE ELSE....sigh.
i was just commenting on the the other side of the fence...
THATS ALL.
i wish you the best.
ps...op amended....
BT.
yes there are programmer conversion tools but whenever ive seen
a group of devs use them...its not trivial.still lots of work needed.
lets see the Big Picture for a moment. if what bb does was trivial
i"m sure lots of competitors would be available.
i have no knowledge of bb internals AND i was a terrible coder.
so i moved into mgt...but as i told more than one ceo or vp ...
'this isnt trivial stuff...if you doubt me i invite you to spend a day with the techs '...lol
best.
om 🇨🇦 🇬🇧
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 03/27/24 02:37 AM.
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I remember years back there were always big long threads of users wanting 64bit but PG said we don't need it as we have JBridge....but then apple banned all 32bit apps...then bang, instantly we had 64bit Biab.
PG would have to have other crossplatform development going on behind the scenes, up their sleeves, rather than leaving all their eggs in the one Delphi basket ?
The PLUGIN is a good alternative if they just get the generate code in it, then you have a crosspatform VST and VST Standalone that will run independently on Win/Mac without the need for the old Biab app running in the background, if anything happens to the Delphi Biab and it's 6 months later Mac version.
At the moment Biab, PLUGIN and RealBand all need the old Biab app to run.
So if PG are not already doing this in the background the best time is not tomorrow, not next week, but today.
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All.
great comments by all.
The lego bricks made me laugh.
i won't bore you good people with my many tech 'war stories' but ive got many many very comical ones that are hilarious.
Personally, I think the worst thing that ever happened to devs/coders was when ceo's got pc's at work and home. Because the ceos thought they could do activities in just a few clicks…so they thought…
'Why are those techs taking sooo long with the new system'...lol.
This is why sometimes it's best just to sit them down for a day and get them involved in seeing what devs do. The best reason to do this is when ceo's order that new system to be done in 3 months (but all the devs know it's gonna take 2 years…lol) so there won't be any craziness. and ridiculous impossible time frames to meet.
frankly my heart goes out to the new generation of techs having to deal with people trying to penetrate an organisation's systems. it's a zoo….
which is one reason why i keep my recording rig off the net.
and let's talk about API's, and other OS 'features to help coders be productive '....
sometimes i wonder what the designers of such were on…lol.
talk about difficult to understand by seasoned and new devs alike.
now i'm gonna go dream about a media creation threadripper workstation that costs 8k with 96
cores that probably would handle any amount of tracks/plugins i might throw at it.
sadly so many musos have to run old clunky pc's that have limited processing power.
so i dont envy pg cos its an incredible challenge meeting many users features needs.
It's a catch 22 for pg. 'between a rock and a hard place'.
For example, someone with a beefy i7/i9/ryzen might be able to easily handle the new feature..
but what about the person just starting out in music production who doesnt realise uncle freds
old cely pc just can't handle the load. it's a no win for pg imho.
which is why ive commented many times bb needs an 'ALERT YOUR PC IS OVDERLOADING' feature...
to cover pg's rear so the user doesnt blame pg.
happiness…me very very happy lad with my new eyesight.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 03/27/24 08:00 AM.
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I think one should look at it more as a ”survival” issue not as much as how much work are involved.
In the end it will likely be a survival issue considering how fast technology development moves nowadays.
Just look at all the DAWs, toonetrack type apps, stem splitter apps and more and most with very attractive GUIs and workflows. There might not be any real competitor today but suddenly one day they will be there and then it is to late to start revamp the software.
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I think one should look at it more as a ”survival” issue not as much as how much work are involved.
In the end it will likely be a survival issue considering how fast technology development moves nowadays.
Just look at all the DAWs, toonetrack type apps, stem splitter apps and more and most with very attractive GUIs and workflows. There might not be any real competitor today but suddenly one day they will be there and then it is to late to start revamp the software. My thoughts exactly. There is a ton of competition on the MIDI side and PGM is losing that battle. The RT side is getting some competition via hard synths with rhythm sections, however RTs currently are the best, but for how long.
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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..There might not be any real competitor today but suddenly one day they will be there and then it is to late to start revamp the software.
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How many years ago was a crossplatform c++ suggested ?????? programming language upgrade delphi to c++ if more uses had insight and got onboard back then things may have been different now.
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Perhaps go a step further and move to JUCE?
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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A few words on this also from a developer's perspective. I'm pretty sure that when PGM started using Delphi it was sold and seen as an upgrade to whatever language they used before ... I guess Borland C or Borland Pascal as Delphi was then produced and sold by Borland as an upgrade to a fourth-generation language. From Embrocadero's website: "Delphi® is the world's most advanced integrated IDE for rapidly developing native high-performance multi-platform applications using powerful visual design tools and features developers love.". It claims to support all major platforms including Windows, MacOS, Linux, Android and iOS. It's a "RAD" (Rapid Applications Development" environment, with the implicit aims of getting a working product to market quicker on all of those platforms. I've never used Delphi, so I can't make specific observations, only observations about other RAD platforms I've used. On the platforms I've used, I've generally found that, yes, they get the product to market quicker from a standing start, but that they seem to become more and more difficult to manage over the lifetime of the product because one is permanently trying to make changes where some, maybe many, of the consequences of those changes are tucked away inside the environment. In addition to that, the RAD maker is making "improvements" to their product which have similar consequences. It can end up being a lot more work than one expected to maintain these things. On JUCE and many other OpenSource software, there are understandable concerns about if or how the OpenSource licencing may impact the products licencing. Companies worry that there is a risk their own copyright may be blown apart by using it. Generally that should(*) not apply to libraries et al, which are normally under the LGPL licence, but I understand the concern. People also worry about security, but most such software is well understood and you have access to the source-code, which is often not the case with commerial libraries. (*) "Should" is a dangerous word ... it actually means approximately nothing, e.g., there should be peace on earth; or "It should do that, but it doesn't". Here's a big gotcha: In principle a change from Delphi to C++ is not an upgrade, it's a downgrade. That doesn't necessarily mean that the change would be bad idea, but it certainly does raise some profound questions that only PGM can really answer. Here's an argument, though, why the "downgrade" might still be appropriate. The programming languages C was devised in the 70s and although it's had some polishing since, it's still fundamentaly the same language. C++ is a derivative of C that has further polish, but is still fundamentally C at heart. That means these languages have been very popular indeed for fifty years. The reasons for that are several, but compactness, efficiency, the ability to do most programming tasks with it/them and their universality are key, as is the huge number of people who can use them. C and C++ are a remarkably constant foundation of today's programming and are often still very much present "under the surface" of other programming systems.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11; Win8.1: Scarletts
BIAB2022 UltraPAK, Reaper, a bunch of stuff.
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I'm not into Delphi or C++ so I'm no expert but the main issue is the 6 months wait for Mac version, Windows users don't see this, they just see what they get at xmas time and it works good for them, so why change ?
I just think implementing things would be a lot quicker and easier than Delphi, as you can see with the JUCE BBPLUGIN things get implemented quickly and look a lot better visually rather than taking a year in between each time that makes things very slow.
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I'm not into Delphi or C++ so I'm no expert but the main issue is the 6 months wait for Mac version, Windows users don't see this, they just see what they get at xmas time and it works good for them, so why change ?
I just think implementing things would be a lot quicker and easier than Delphi, as you can see with the JUCE BBPLUGIN things get implemented quickly and look a lot better visually rather than taking a year in between each time that makes things very slow. I don't disagree. I'm just saying it's a lot more complicated than it may appear to many of us from outside of PGM.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11; Win8.1: Scarletts
BIAB2022 UltraPAK, Reaper, a bunch of stuff.
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I just think implementing things would be a lot quicker and easier than Delphi, as you can see with the JUCE BBPLUGIN things get implemented quickly and look a lot better visually rather than taking a year in between each time that makes things very slow. That's partially true, but we must keep in mind that the entire music engine framework was already developed and the plugin only had to take that output and handle and present it through a different interface. This would be a significantly lesser challenge than starting with nothing. I agree that the graphics are improved in the plugin, but those same quality graphics could be rendered in other languages, including Delphi. There are even many 3rd party layered product tools available to deliver that. Restrictions in graphics presentation is really more controlled by the innovation of ideas of the developer(s).
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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I showed PG 3rd party graphic tools years n years n years ago but that didn't go anywhere, maybe it was not crossplatform ? You need to look down the track and see if you vision the same thing happening 10-20 years from now where you have the Win version at xmas time then the Mac version mid year, still. This is a lot of time wasted that users don't see and I think could be better spent equally on a crossplatform rather than wasted repeating the same thing on Mac, would you have to have yet another 6 months for a Linux version ? you would then need more programmers mid year to work on the current year's Linux version while other programmers are working on the next years Win version ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/images/icons/default_dark/crazy.gif) to both be released in Dec. JUCE is specifically designed for audio apps, you don't need an old BBW running in the background of each app and Plugin that they talk to. I had to do the same thing with AutoHotkey in Reaper to send actions to Biab, it works but it's a bodgy way of doing things. The Biab generate code could not be doomed to stay in Delphi, I as one who knows nothing about programming Delphi or C++ can make up Lua scripts in Reaper to generate tracks much the same as Biab, surely a C++ programmer like Adar can do the same with the JUCE PLUGIN ????? The PLUGIN has to wait all the time for Delphi programmers to do things with BBW4 before it can go ahead, just like we are waiting now for PLUGIN fixes but they are working on repeating things on Mac. All other audio apps you see new versions or updates for Win Mac (even Linux) released at the same time. RapidComposer and other apps have the exact same app in a VST form without talking to the main app running silently in the background. Other users need to encourage PG more, it should not all be up to me to nag n nag n nag  look into it more, read up on it, then post ideas for PG of getting them to this goal down the track.
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A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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Jan 19th, 2020
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